Scottish independence - as an Englishman, am I "wrong" not to give a crap?

[fishfinger]

25% has a good ring to it.

19%
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-20677528

 

[redsquirrel]

Well I guess it's in the interest of balance to have some pro-independance fruit loops to counter balance the daft union wafflings of Quartz and Sass.

 

[charliechalk]

25% has a good ring to it.

Its 20%, after hundreds of years of Westminster trying to destroy it as a language and mass immigration diluting it, that is extremely high, in Scotland only 1% speak Gaelic.

 

[brogdale]

Should I have used a smiley, then?

 

[andysays]

Its 20%, after hundreds of years of Westminster trying to destroy it as a language and mass immigration diluting it, that is extremely high, in Scotland only 1% speak Gaelic.

Which is as good an indication as any that numbers of people speaking a particular language is not directly related to demands for independence.

I'm still waiting for an indication (any indication) of the current size of demand for Welsh independence.

 

[andysays]

A demand for independence is the natural result of nationalism when that nation is trapped in an unfair union, Wales will follow suit.

The 2001 UK census was criticised in Wales for not offering 'Welsh' as an option to describe respondents' national identity.[218] Partly to address this concern, the 2011 census asked the question "How would you describe your national identity?". Respondents were instructed to "tick all that apply" from a list of options that included Welsh. The outcome was that 57.5% of Wales' population indicated their sole national identity to be Welsh; a further 7.1% indicated it to be both Welsh and British.

Again, this says nothing about desire for independence.

If I had been given the option on my Census form (I live in London) I might well have described my nat ID as Scottish in addition to British, but I'm certainly not arguing for Scottish independence.

 

[butchersapron]

Political nationalism is not the same as supporting wales in the rugby ffs.

 

[charliechalk]

No you're not you're being a typical little contrary wanker cause you are affronted that so e have the temerity to want to leave your glorious motherland and set out on their own, its that typical misplaced English superiority complex at play is all.

 

[teqniq]

charliechalk

teqniq

Would either of you care to argue a case for that?

And I don't think I'm being arrogant, of course there will be changes, adjustments etc. I just don't think they will be anywhere near as significant as is being claimed.

To take an example, how/why will Wales follow suit? And if you'd prefer to argue another example, feel free, but simply asserting that the UK will be shaken apart doesn't get us anywhere.

I have not asserted that the UK will be 'shaken apart', indeed us regular folks may not notice any difference, certainly in the short term but I do think it would be inadvisable not to account for possible changes in a future without Scotland as part of the Union. The folks in the Westminster bubble seem to be getting nervous otherwise why would we be seeing the current sequence of car-crashes that pass as PR these days?

I think it unlikely that Wales would follow suit, though who knows?

 

[andysays]

I have not asserted that the UK will be 'shaken apart', indeed us regular folks may not notice any difference, certainly in the short term but I do think it would be inadvisable not to account for possible changes in a future without Scotland as part of the Union. The folks in the Westminster bubble seem to be getting nervous otherwise why would we be seeing the current sequence of car-crashes that pass as PR these days?

I think it unlikely that Wales would follow suit, though who knows?

I apologise for lumping you in with the other one

I agree that there are likely to be some significant practical changes. I don't foresee (though I may be wrong) that there will be any significant constitutional changes.

 

[Quartz]

Well I guess it's in the interest of balance to have some pro-independance fruit loops to counter balance the daft union wafflings of Quartz and Sass.

If you'd bothered to read, you'd know that I am undecided.

 

[andysays]

No you're not you're being a typical little contrary wanker cause you are affronted that so e have the temerity to want to leave your glorious motherland and set out on their own, its that typical misplaced English superiority complex at play is all.

Assuming this is directed at me...

I'm not affronted that Scotland wants independence. I don't agree, but I understand it, and had my parents not moved south shortly before I was born, I might very well be arguing for it right now.

 

[butchersapron]

If you'd bothered to read, you'd know that I am undecided.

Yeah. Totally.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think it unlikely that Wales would follow suit, though who knows?

Wales wouldn't be 'following suit' though. If demand for independence were to grow in Wales (there is very very little atm) it would need to follow its own trajectory. At the moment, Wales shares a judicial system, education system and pretty much every other system with England. There is a reason why the Welsh flag is not a part of the Union flag - by the time of the Union, Wales had been entirely absorbed into England politically, and this remains largely the case. Currently, it is very hard to see what an independent Wales might even look like.

As someone else pointed out, South Wales and North Wales are both far better connected to England than they are to each other.

 

[charliechalk]

You're clearly affronted enormously it drips from all your posts that's why you want to shoot down everything anybody says in support of independence why else would you, I suggest you mind your own business.

 

[teqniq]

littlebabyjesus ok 'suit' was the wrong word, otherwise you have articulated the reasons why I think it unlikely.

 

[andysays]

You're clearly affronted enormously it drips from all your posts that's why you want to shoot down everything anybody says in support of independence why else would you, I suggest you mind your own business.

Again assuming this is directed at me...

Where have I "shot down" anything anyone says in support of independence?

What I'm arguing against on this thread is the idea that Scottish independence (which I don't personally support, but am not directly affected by) will automatically lead to any significant political or constitutional change in the rest of the UK.

And that subject clearly is my business. Assuming you're in Scotland, it's actually more my business than yours, but you're still welcome to contribute, as long as you can string a coherent argument together.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Regardless of where you stand on this, it seems odd to tell people in the rest of the UK that the question of Scotland leaving the Union is not their business. It very clearly is.

 

[charliechalk]

Are you fuckin stupid? You don't think one out of four constituent parts of the UK representing a third of its land mass and 10% of its popu?ation leaving represents a significant constitutional and political change in and of itself? I know the schools are pretty shit down there but Jesus christ

 

[charliechalk]

Regardless of where you stand on this, it seems odd to tell people in the rest of the UK that the question of Scotland leaving the Union is not their business. It very clearly is.

Of course it's not, it's our democratic right to self determination, we will make our decision, inform you of what it is and you will have to accept it and work with us either way, it is very much not your business.

 

[andysays]

Are you fuckin stupid? You don't think one out of four constituent parts of the UK representing a third of its land mass and 10% of its popu?ation leaving represents a significant constitutional and political change in and of itself? I know the schools are pretty shit down there but Jesus christ

 

[butchersapron]

Of course it's not, it's our democratic right to self determination, we will make our decision, inform you of what it is and you will have to accept it and work with us either way, it is very much not your business.

The last contradictory bit is why it is people in the UK's business. You've just outlined why.

 

[charliechalk]

No its not that's reality you will have no choice but to accept what we decide and work with us either way, you have no place in the debate or to try too fluence our decision, despite your po?iticians best efforts to do so.

 

[butchersapron]

No its not that's reality you will have no choice but to accept what we decide and work with us either way, you have no place in the debate or to try too fluence our decision, despite your po?iticians best efforts to do so.

This is nonsense. Anyone effected by the potential results of any decision anywhere is entitled to attempt to analyse how it effects them, what the consequences might be, and how best to then prepare for and meet those consequences. That is entirely different from them interfering in the process of that decision making or with the result. This is the basis for reciprocal social solidarity after all. You're sounding like a BBC-jock.

 

[redsquirrel]

If you'd bothered to read, you'd know that I am undecided.

Of course you are, utterly neutral about voting with dictator wannabe Salmond.

 

[andysays]

The last contradictory bit is why it is people in the UK's business. You've just outlined why.

No! Mind your own business

 

[charliechalk]

This is nonsense. Anyone effected by the potential results of any decision anywhere is entitled to attempt to analyse how it effects them, what the consequences might be, and how best to then prepare for and meet those consequences. That is entirely different from them interfering in the process of that decision making or with the result. This is the basis for reciprocal social solidarity after all. You're sounding like a BBC-jock.

That's totally different, and I don't appreciate being called a jock, would you call a black poster a nigger?

 

[redsquirrel]

Jesus Christ.

 

[butchersapron]

That's totally different, and I don't appreciate being called a jock, would you call a black poster a nigger?

I said you're acting like a BBC-jock - like the oft seen BBC upper class stereotype of chest-prodding irrationally nationalistic and aggressive scots who loudly give out to the english whenever they get the chance. Which, i think has to be the first time on the two threads - so a sign of progress at least.

 

[charliechalk]

Is it any wonder? For the second time jock is a racist term that I don't appreciate Nigel so stop using it.