Scottish independence - as an Englishman, am I "wrong" not to give a crap?

[Sasaferrato]

I met a Scot recently down here in England, they had recently retired from the army. They said joining the army, and their ensuing career, had been the best thing they ever did. What do you think Sass about the likely changes there will be to the army, and the lives people used to make in it, if independence comes about?

Well, Salmond has stated that Scotland would have a standing army of 15,000, I'm unsure whether this will encompass air,sea and lad, or land only. Either way up, a militia rather than an army. I would imagine that people would continue to enlist down south.

 

[danny la rouge]

The positive case for the union is overwhelming. I have asked my MSP five times what the cost of a Scottish HMRC would be. She doesn't know (or is frightened to say).

The elements of government that are at present provided by the UK, but would need to be funded by Scotland alone are frightening.

Salmond is either telling outright lies, or is mentally ill. He has been told by all the major parties that there will be no currency union, yet persists in the lie that there will be. He has been told that there is no automatic membership of the EU, by the EU president, yet insists that there will be. As to other aspects of EU membership, such as Schengen, which is automatic for new entrants, silence.

The 'White Paper' is 600 pages of uncosted aspirational bullshit.

Anyone who feels that Scotland would benefit from independence needs a reality check. Vote 'NO' and stop the 'Little Scotlanders' in their tracks. From their utterances, a lot of the 'Yes' voters are xenophobic racists.

Edited to add:

I am not applying the term 'xenophobic racists' to all of the 'Yes' supporters. Just the significant minority that are.

And that's the positive case for the Union, is it? Your diagnosis of Alex Salmond's mental health?

 

[Sasaferrato]

what country in history has not "benefitted from independence", really? what makes Scotland so uniquely incapable that it cannot come up with and fund its own instituions of government?

I think the un-named Tory minister torpedoed Osborne and Beaker's ludicrous line that there will be no currency union. There will be. Why? business wants it and, from this government, what business wants, it gets.

As already discussed no one really knows what will happen with the EU and EU entry as it is uncharted territory. The idea that energy rich Scotland will be kept out because it refuses to put up a guarded border with England, or is reluctant to join Schengen, is laughable. The EU will want Scotland in and contributing.

I'd also like to see some evidence of the "xenophobic racism" of yes campaigners, please. That is a pretty serious charge. Quartz boldly tried a parallel tack a few pages back and failed miserably to make the case. I am sure you will do better.

(as for the weird sub-Spearhead ramblings about Picts and the "real Scots", who honestly gives a fuck? It is the 21st century and we are a mongrel nation like pretty much everywhere else on earth- and are all the better for it.)

I don't have to justify my view. Independence is not wanted by the majority, and is a divisive proposal engendered my the monomaniacal SNP.

Historically, once the referendum is lost, the SNP will be put to the sword at the subsequent election. Then the 'Little Scotlanders' can shut up for another generation.

Funny that, I dare say you regard the 'Little Englander' with a deal of derision, yet miss the delicious irony that you are a 'Little Scotlander'.

 

[danny la rouge]

Great Britain is a collection of islands.


Carry on....

No, Great Britain is the largest island of the archipelago. The archipelago itself is called the British Isles.

 

[steeplejack]

I find it a bit confusing in that Wales has an active welsh speaking population yet does not seem to want independence, while Scotland has very few gaelic speakers and does.

I know the issues are unrelated, but still, there is a lot of national Welsh pride in their language.

not really comparing like with like, though. Wales, until recently, was *a lot* more integrated into England (in transport terms it is easier to travel from Cardiff to London than it is from Cardiff to Caernarfon; the M4 and the 55 are routes out of Wales).

Wales has no banking system and until very recently lacked separate legal powrs of any kind. (recent developments at the Assembly and the Silk Cimmission may change all that but it is at the very beginning of the process).

Wales was united with England c. 400 years earlier than Scotland.

It might be argued that the Church and the lnaguage are the only real vestiges of a *separate* Welsh identity, along with more recent inventions like national sports teams. Whilst there has always been a stroing cultural nationalist identity in Wales, a much weaker and less diversified economy, is fundamental to the lack of enthusiasm for independence IMO. Put simply even those minded to favour a separate Welsh state do not see a developed economic basis for it IMO.

Even within Plaid there was a rather fierce debate between those who advocated independence, or the rather more nebulous "full self government for Wales" formulation adovcated by the hapless Ieuan Wyn Jones. With IWJ thankfully now out of the picture the much more leftist oriented leadership has swung fully behind independence. But it really is still a minority sport. The outcome of the Commission looking into further powers for wales will be fascinating.

 

[Sasaferrato]

And that's the positive case for the Union, is it? Your diagnosis of Alex Salmond's mental health?

We can argue round and round, and reach no point of agreement. I am implacably opposed, and will certainly be making sure that I vote.

 

[danny la rouge]

We can argue round and round, and reach no point of agreement. I am implacably opposed, and will certainly be making sure that I vote.

There's no point in you and me trying to persuade each other. But I was interested in hearing the positive case for the Union from you. I still would be.

 

[steeplejack]

I don't have to justify my view. Independence is not wanted by the majority, and is a divisive proposal engendered my the monomaniacal SNP.

so if it is down to SNP monomania and nothing else, how do you explain the presence of Greens, Socialists, hell even an independent minded section of the Labour party, being involved in the campaign? Bit of a swing and a miss there.

Historically, once the referendum is lost, the SNP will be put to the sword at the subsequent election. Then the 'Little Scotlanders' can shut up for another generation.

nonsense. Voters are very savvy in Scotland. Even if the referendum produces a No vote, the SNP will win the next Scottish election. The reason being that not one of the other mainstream parties can lay a glove on them at present. 1979 is a long time ago and people seeking to draw comparisons between the situations then and now are (at best) deluded.

Funny that, I dare say you regard the 'Little Englander' with a deal of derision, yet miss the delicious irony that you are a 'Little Scotlander'.

This is just empty speculation in lieu of an argument. I'll content myself with the observation that it isnt me who has been pebbledashing the last page of the thread with a quack-historical diahorretic spasm about Picts, the Irish and Culloden.

(still wating for some kind of evidence to back up your crites of "xenophobic racism" vis a vis the Yes camapign, by the way. Inane specualtion as to what you presume might be my views dont count as that).

 

[kebabking]

...What do you think Sass about the likely changes there will be to the army, and the lives people used to make in it, if independence comes about?

from a straw poll, conversations, and general nosiness, i have found 3 soldiers - out of about 50 - who said they would seriously consider a transfer to a SDF. the big 'anti' seemed to be a belief that the SDF would be the most boring job ever created. all the 50-odd i spoke to had either Scottish accents, or were people i knew to have a significant connection to Scotland - as do i.

the 'pros' were it meant living nearer family and a rather more relaxed operating tempo. all those who thought they might be interested were fairly junior, none above the rank of Bombardier/Corporal..

my understanding from talking to others - in historically Scottish Regiments - is thats it a higher percentage, but nothing like 20%. again, living nearer family, 'easier' job, and overwelmingly at the junior ranks end of the career scale.

 

[redsquirrel]

DC was on the money with this being the daft thread.

 

[andysays]

No, Great Britain is the largest island of the archipelago. The archipelago itself is called the British Isles.

Just a minor point, but don't eg Isle of Wight and Anglesey both come under the heading of Great Britain?

Are you making a distinction between a geographical and a political definition?

 

[andysays]

DC was on the money with this being the daft thread.

I guess that's because we've already dealt fairly quickly with the "am I wrong not to give a crap?" question. Those of us living the rest of the UK are not going to have our lives altered in any significant way.

 

[teqniq]

If the Scots vote yes, I wouldn't be so sure of that.

 

[charliechalk]

That's so arrogant, and also completely wrong, you stand to lose 25% of the UK's corporation tax overnight, the home for your nuclear weapons and a region that subsidises all of England except London, then you will see the eventual break up of the rest of the UK as the welsh follow suit and n Ireland is cut adrift. That's why your politicians are desperate to keep us.

 

[danny la rouge]

Just a minor point, but don't eg Isle of Wight and Anglesey both come under the heading of Great Britain?

Are you making a distinction between a geographical and a political definition?

I was using the geographical term. The political term is in flux.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You have a source for the 25% of corporation tax figure? Sounds lke a dodgy stat.

 

[charliechalk]

Google it

 

[andysays]

charliechalk

teqniq

Would either of you care to argue a case for that?

And I don't think I'm being arrogant, of course there will be changes, adjustments etc. I just don't think they will be anywhere near as significant as is being claimed.

To take an example, how/why will Wales follow suit? And if you'd prefer to argue another example, feel free, but simply asserting that the UK will be shaken apart doesn't get us anywhere.

 

[butchersapron]

Google it

Why do that charlie - if you know the figure is correct and where you got it from then why not say? If you don't and it's going on memory, then just say.

 

[charliechalk]

Its not me who doubts the veracity if it I don't need a source

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Google it

It's bollocks then? Thought so.

 

[charliechalk]

Would either of you care to argue a case for that?

And I don't think I'm being arrogant, of course there will be changes, adjustments etc. I just don't think they will be anywhere near as significant as is being claimed.

To take an example, how/why will Wales follow suit? And if you'd prefer to argue another example, feel free, but simply asserting that the UK will be shaken apart doesn't get us anywhere.

Its natural that after we go wales will too, they will see the sky didn't collapse on us and nationalism will rise and Wales will go too, then England won't want to keep just n Ireland no more uk

 

[butchersapron]

Its not me who doubts the veracity if it I don't need a source

Come on you're a grown man, 70ft tall. You know better than this.

 

[andysays]

Its natural that after we go wales will too, they will see the sky didn't collapse on us and nationalism will rise and Wales will go too, then England won't want to keep just n Ireland no more uk

I was hoping for a reasoned argument rather than a mere assertion of your personal fantasy.

There has been significant and substantial demand for an independent Scotland for generations, it hasn't appeared in the past few years, or even the past few decades. Such demand does not exist in Wales, or if you think it does, please show your source (and don't tell me to google it...)

 

[charliechalk]

Its not fantasy its simple logic and human nature and if you don't think nationalism exists in Wales you might want to watch a Wales rugby match or go and check what language most of them speak in Wales. Your position is simple fantasy I'm afraid, mine is the natural conclusion of an ongoing process, did you really think the UK would last forever?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Most people in Wales speak English.

 

[andysays]

Its not fantasy its simple logic and human nature and if you don't think nationalism exists in Wales you might want to watch a Wales rugby match or go and check what language most of them speak in Wales. Your position is simple fantasy I'm afraid, mine is the natural conclusion of an ongoing process, did you really think the UK would last forever?

Nationalism is not the same as a demand for independence.

And just remind me, what percentage of welsh residents do speak welsh?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Nationalism is not the same as a demand for independence.

And just remind me, what percentage of welsh residents do speak welsh?

Not sure percentages are charlie's strong suit.

 

[brogdale]

Nationalism is not the same as a demand for independence.

And just remind me, what percentage of welsh residents do speak welsh?

25% has a good ring to it.

 

[charliechalk]

Nationalism is not the same as a demand for independence.

And just remind me, what percentage of welsh residents do speak welsh?

A demand for independence is the natural result of nationalism when that nation is trapped in an unfair union, Wales will follow suit.

The 2001 UK census was criticised in Wales for not offering 'Welsh' as an option to describe respondents' national identity.[218] Partly to address this concern, the 2011 census asked the question "How would you describe your national identity?". Respondents were instructed to "tick all that apply" from a list of options that included Welsh. The outcome was that 57.5% of Wales' population indicated their sole national identity to be Welsh; a further 7.1% indicated it to be both Welsh and British.