Scoffing too much meat and eggs is ‘just as bad as smoking’, claim scientists

[Spymaster]

Why do I think you ought not to kill animals? Because its wrong to kill - and other wise make suffer and/or treat as means - sentiment beings when its not necessary to do so.

Why?

 

[ViolentPanda]

plus (awaits ridicule and being called morrisey!)
if an animal is alive and it gets killed/murdered/ceases to live for you to eat it as meat then ergo meat is why that animal has been killed/murdered/cease to live

Under capitalism, yes. Mass "production" of livestock for food does mean that animals are given life solely to provide food for other animals.
With large animals the equation was slightly different before modern capitalism. More often than not the mutton or beef or chicken or pig you ate was from an animal that had "worn out" and had been slaughtered because it could no longer provide the lambs/milk/piglets/eggs you wanted. Just as exploitative a relationship, but one that put meat as an occasional food on the platters of the working classes, with mostly every edible bit of the beast being utilised.

is "meat is an animal killed for someone who considers flesh tasty to eat" any better for your palate? or a bit like dancing around the reality maybe

Some people consider the eating of meat dietarily acceptable, others don't. In terms of "ethical" arguments, neither side makes a good enough argument (IMHO) for me to give one view credibility over the other. Obviously, vegetarians and omnivores will disagree with me.

 

[Spymaster]

why are people called hippies and weirdos and ridiculed just for not eating something the majority of people do?

That's not what's been happening on this thread though is it? Quite the reverse. It seems that the whole reason for the thread being set up in the first place was to impugn the eating of meat!

As you say, anyone who's been around here for more than 20 minutes knows how these threads go so there was always going to be a bunfight but in this case it's the veggies that started it!!!

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Anyone who makes such an ignorant claim has never tried a vegetarian diet.

But if you're coming to this as someone who loves food, loves exploring new tastes, textures etc then a veggie diet is by definition dull, you're excluding a huge amount of what's available to you.

Veggie food can be as tasty and exciting as anything with meat, sure. But for me it's somewhat akin to visiting a gallery but only being allowed to look at the bottom half of each picture.

 

[ViolentPanda]

yes
we've evolved

Not enough that we can currently exist on a herbivorous diet without requiring some convoluted protein sources that arguably damage the environment almost as badly as meat production does.
Perhaps in the future this will change, but currently it's merely a case of greater and lesser evil.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's not what's been happening on this thread though is it? Quite the reverse. It seems that the whole reason for the thread being set up in the first place was to impugn the eating of meat!

As you say, anyone who's been around here for more than 20 minutes knows how these threads go so there was always going to be a bunfight but in this case it's the veggies that started it!!!

Yep. But we've established a moral equivalence between eating veal and eating cheese. So it's not been entirely wasted.

 

[ddraig]

But if you're coming to this as someone who loves food, loves exploring new tastes, textures etc then a veggie diet is by definition dull, you're excluding a huge amount of what's available to you.

Veggie food can be as tasty and exciting as anything with meat, sure. But for me it's somewhat akin to visiting a gallery but only being allowed to look at the bottom half of each picture.

last post, grrr - you are fucking dull
go to terre a terre and see if you see the whole painting or still insist that putting some meat on top will always improve it
i imagine you don't use any of your dull arguments or pathetic points in the earshot or at any of the vegan/vegie stars you respect and work for

 

[ViolentPanda]

Don't try to obfuscate please. You were implying that moral objections to killing animals were not valid because those animals were brought into existence by humans in the first place. I want to know why you think your 'modern farming' example is relevant at all.

I think it's only relevant from a particular perspective - an "ownership" perspective where property rights are primary.
All moral and ethical justifications and arguments are, however, relative to which side of the argument you're on.

Why do I think you ought not to kill animals? Because its wrong to kill - and other wise make suffer and/or treat as means - sentiment beings when its not necessary to do so.

It can be wrong to kill, certainly, but you sow the seeds of a problem in your reference to "sentient beings". Sentience with regard to humans doesn't imply ethicality, and for both humans and other animals it only implies an ability to take note of the world around you. For many people, this makes the mass production of meat/the mass exploitation of other animals for food an acceptable practice. As humans, though, we have a facility to rationalise away many of the ethical conundrums that come from eating other animals, and some of those rationalisations will be accurate

 

[littlebabyjesus]

last post, grrr - you are fucking dull
go to terre a terre and see if you see the whole painting or still insist that putting some meat on top will always improve it
i imagine you don't use any of your dull arguments or pathetic points in the earshot or at any of the vegan/vegie stars you respect and work for

There are plenty of meals that can't be made without meat. Even if it's just a ham bone to make the stock for your chickpea stew - you lose flavour if you don't use the bone.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Not enough that we can currently exist on a herbivorous diet without requiring some convoluted protein sources that arguably damage the environment almost as badly as meat production does.
Perhaps in the future this will change, but currently it's merely a case of greater and lesser evil.

I'm guessing a vegan diet with food only sourced from what can be grown in the UK would get very dull!

 

[UnderOpenSky]

There are plenty of meals that can't be made without meat. Even if it's just a ham bone to make the stock for your chickpea stew - you lose flavour if you don't use the bone.

On the plus side we have now invented MSG.

 

[Spymaster]

Oh, I get pleasure from good food all right. But I can't say I get particularly excited by a sandwich.

That does it for me.

Stop press: We're not all the same!

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

last post, grrr - you are fucking dull
go to terre a terre and see if you see the whole painting or still insist that putting some meat on top will always improve it
i imagine you don't use any of your dull arguments or pathetic points in the earshot or at any of the vegan/vegie stars you respect and work for

Try reading what I actually posted FFS. I didn't say veggie meals are improved by adding meat.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Why?

Lots of reasons. here are a few: 1. The lives of others belong to them and are not yours to take away. 2. Taking life often involves physical and psychological suffering. 3. Taking a life deprives the living being of any future positive experiences they may have had. 4. The taking of life deprives that being's family members, associates, dependents etc of the presence of that life. 5. The (non consensual) taking of life is an act of violence that could have negative psychological effects on the life taker.

 

[5t3IIa]

 

[ddraig]

carrot murderer!!!

 

[Jeff Robinson]

It can be wrong to kill, certainly, but you sow the seeds of a problem in your reference to "sentient beings". Sentience with regard to humans doesn't imply ethicality, and for both humans and other animals it only implies an ability to take note of the world around you. For many people, this makes the mass production of meat/the mass exploitation of other animals for food an acceptable practice. As humans, though, we have a facility to rationalise away many of the ethical conundrums that come from eating other animals, and some of those rationalisations will be accurate

Perhaps 'consciousness' would have been a better term to use. The point I was making was that I think some form of subjective awareness is an important factor in assessing moral status.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So is it morally wrong to keep cats or dogs or ferrets or other obligate carnivores as pets?

 

[ddraig]

Lots of reasons. here are a few: 1. The lives of others belong to them and are not yours to take away. 2. Taking life often involves physical and psychological suffering. 3. Taking a life deprives the living being of any future positive experiences they may have had. 4. The taking of life deprives that being's family members, associates, dependents etc of the presence of that life. 5. The (non consensual) taking of life is an act of violence that could have negative psychological effects on the life taker.

this only matters when an animal crosses the line into pet territory, they are just "food" and products otherwise

 

[ViolentPanda]

But if you're coming to this as someone who loves food, loves exploring new tastes, textures etc then a veggie diet is by definition dull, you're excluding a huge amount of what's available to you.

Veggie food can be as tasty and exciting as anything with meat, sure. But for me it's somewhat akin to visiting a gallery but only being allowed to look at the bottom half of each picture.

I agree, but I also acknowledge that my desire to see both halves of the painting is due to my particular perspective as an omnivore, and that a vegetarian may be entirely content with what we see as their more limited view/palette of dietary colours.
I've walked both sides, and I'm certainly more comfortable as an omnivore, than as a vegetarian, but I'm also happy to admit that I'm an omnivore because of convenience (although for me "convenience" actually means that my digestion is part-borked, and that a vegetarian diet over-stimulates my intestines and causes more nasty messes than supplementing my diet with meat proteins does).

 

[Jeff Robinson]

So is it morally wrong to keep cats or dogs or ferrets or other obligate carnivores as pets?

That may well be the case.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

this only matters when an animal crosses the line into pet territory, they are just "food" and products otherwise

You insist you're not trolling, then you come out with this drivel.

 

[ddraig]

So is it morally wrong to keep cats or dogs or ferrets or other obligate carnivores as pets?

does a cat have a choice of meat or non meat to eat? does a dog? does a ferret?
do you?
why can't you see the difference and that it is a concious choice you make

i know you do and at least admit you have no issue with the slaughter of animals for your pleasure so fair play

 

[UnderOpenSky]

does a cat have a choice of meat or non meat to eat? does a dog? does a ferret?
do you?
why can't you see the difference and that it is a concious choice you make

i know you do and at least admit you have no issue with the slaughter of animals for your pleasure so fair play

We breed pets for our amusement. If we didn't do so, there would be no need for them to eat meat.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

does a cat have a choice of meat or non meat to eat? does a dog? does a ferret?
do you?
why can't you see the difference and that it is a concious choice you make

i know you do and at least admit you have no issue with the slaughter of animals for your pleasure so fair play

AFAIA cats and dogs can lead healthy lives on vegan based diets.

 

[ddraig]

You insist you're not trolling, then you come out with this drivel.

why is it drivel?
is it not bizarre that there are people who will quite happily treat one kind of animal as a member of their family and nurture it, protect it and cry when it dies whilst simultaneously eating a variety of other animals and even feeding bits of it to the safe one under the table?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm guessing a vegan diet with food only sourced from what can be grown in the UK would get very dull!

I'm not sure it'd be dull (we have a plethora of native herbs to add savour), but I'm fairly sure it'd be labour-intensive and possibly expensive. That's fine if you can afford the time and energy, not so good if you can't.

 

[ddraig]

AFAIA cats and dogs can lead healthy lives on vegan based diets.

i know that but deliberately avoided it as have seen where that argument goes plus that is an imposition of values onto an animal etc

 

[DotCommunist]

AFAIA cats and dogs can lead healthy lives on vegan based diets.

Nope. Cats require something in meat to be healthy.

 

[ddraig]

I'm not sure it'd be dull (we have a plethora of native herbs to add savour), but I'm fairly sure it'd be labour-intensive and possibly expensive. That's fine if you can afford the time and energy, not so good if you can't.

and if there was an industry 10% the size of the meat industry making it easier on economies of scale this would change.
not that you are arguing otherwise obv