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Saudi Arabia allows women to travel independently

hash tag said:
Quite often these people are prised lots of cash and often treated worse than slaves.
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I gather that's commonly true but a lot of workers fuck off home without paying their bills. Sounds like there are duff employers and duff workers, but neither excuses the other.
Saying that, i don't think much of the way the Saudis do pretty much everything, and the people that flog them arms and ignore the fuckery they get up to are almost as bad.
 
Yuwipi Woman said:
I believe that actual slavery only ended in 1962 in Saudi Arabia. The US abolished slavery a hundred years before that and is still dealing with its legacy. I guess we shouldn't be surprised when we see slavery in everything but name still exists there. It appears (correct me if I'm wrong), but in the US slavery was replaced by Jim Crow. In Saudi Arabia it was replaced by the al-kafala system. Its how foreign workers are recruited and maintained under a sponsorship system. The sponsor (usually the employer), holds passports and money for the employee and that gives them a lot of power and the ability to abuse those workers.
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Don Troooomp said:
I gather that's commonly true but a lot of workers fuck off home without paying their bills. Sounds like there are duff employers and duff workers, but neither excuses the other.
Saying that, i don't think much of the way the Saudis do pretty much everything, and the people that flog them arms and ignore the fuckery they get up to are almost as bad.
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See previous Quote. Invariably overseas workers are lucky if they get paid at all. I imagine they are regularly beaten, probably have to buy their way out of "employment contracts"
which they can't afford to do, and forced to work umpteen hours a day every day, with little food or water. Health and safety is probably non-existant.
Sometimes you can try and polish a turd; not this one.
 
Twisting things slightly, I would not go to a country where my wifes rights are not respected.
I have discouraged my daughter from going to such a country as well.
 
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Your words spy, not mine.
Would you take a female companion to somewhere where she could be treated like shit? or a male "friend" come to that?
 
PS. I can remember times taking my wife or young daughter to Italy in the past and I could not leave them alone for two minutes
before some lothario tried to chance his arm with them. That was bad enough :facepalm:
 
hash tag said:
Your words spy, not mine.
Would you take a female companion to somewhere where she could be treated like shit? or a male "friend" come to that?
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Nope. These are the world's Islamic countries. With the exceptions of perhaps, Egypt, Jordan, and Morocco, there are none that I have any compulsion to visit whatsoever, either alone or in female company.

 
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Spymaster said:
That's pretty much every muslim majority state in the world off your list.
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I wouldn't disagree with you. There are countries I would certainly add to that list and there are countries on it that I would love to visit, but sadly won't.
Would love to visit Pakistan (very nearly did once), Afghanistan and Bangladesh.
 
hash tag said:
I wouldn't disagree with you. There are countries I would certainly add to that list and there are countries on it that I would love to visit, but sadly won't.
Would love to visit Pakistan (very nearly did once), Afghanistan and Bangladesh.
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Fucking hell, that's some bigotry. Malaysia isn't anything like Brunei, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or the some of the other oppressive regimes on that list.
 
hash tag said:
Your words spy, not mine.
Would you take a female companion to somewhere where she could be treated like shit? or a male "friend" come to that?
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I know someone who took his wife to live there for 10 years. They were both in a special class of foreign workers--he a surgeon, his wife a surgical nurse. She describes living in a palatial home with servants, and a driver to take her around. When she'd enter a shop the workers would almost kow-tow to her. She said that the workers live in a kind of hierarchy, with lower paid maids and construction workers living in awful conditions, to skilled and/ or white American and European workers being given better treatment. Don't know if that is true or not, but I wouldn't be surprised. Everything seems to be about your assigned place in the order of things and staying in your lane. None of this should be construed as approval. I don't think I could live there for a week, let alone 10 years.
 
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hash tag said:
I wouldn't disagree with you. There are countries I would certainly add to that list and there are countries on it that I would love to visit, but sadly won't.
Would love to visit Pakistan (very nearly did once), Afghanistan and Bangladesh.
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strung out said:
Fucking hell, that's some bigotry. Malaysia isn't anything like Brunei, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or the some of the other oppressive regimes on that list.
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The post you quote I don't mention Malaysia or Brunei or Saudi :confused: but did say three countries I would like to visit
 
Spymaster said:
Nope. These are the world's Islamic countries. With the exceptions of perhaps, Egypt, Jordan, and Morocco, there are none that I have any compulsion to visit whatsoever
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hash tag said:
I wouldn't disagree with you. There are countries I would certainly add to that list and there are countries on it that I would love to visit, but sadly won't
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This is what I was responding to
 
Sorry, that wasn't previously clear.
is it bigotry boycotting a country with such a poor human rights record?
 
hash tag said:
Sorry, that wasn't previously clear.
is it bigotry boycotting a country with such a poor human rights record?
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I'm going to admit my bias here, as my wife is Malaysian and I've spent a lot of time there.

Malaysia has some of the most liberal religious freedoms and protections of any Muslim country in the world.

I have gay family members who live with their partners in Malaysia relatively untroubled (albeit without shouting about it from the rooftops).

Women, especially the 40% of non Muslims in the country, have as many freedoms as western countries, and the only women I saw seeing full headdresses were tourists from the Middle East.

The ruling party from 1957 to 2018 were recently voted out in a fully democratic election.

Corporal punishment laws are gradually being liberalised.

Now I know the country isn't perfect, and there are still some shitty laws on the statute book, but I think it's pretty low to put it up there with countries like Brunei or Saudi Arabia, that are horrendously oppressive, and by boycotting it you're missing out on huge amounts of culinary, architectural, Chinese, Indian, Iban, Buddhist and Muslim culture, from some of the friendliest people in the world.
 
I gather that Malaysia is liberalising. I am coming from rather extreme ethics in that I am reluctant to visit a country with capital punishment, more so now than when I was younger. I am happy to be corrected, but understand that women (and other groups) are second place citizens and that for me is a no no.
I know there are many decent, respectable and agreeable people who come from these countries and, all things being equal I am happy to know them. I am sorry to generalise, but this doesn't alter the fact that the religion and politics of some of these countries Stink.
Nothing personal.
 
hash tag said:
I gather that Malaysia is liberalising. I am coming from rather extreme ethics in that I am reluctant to visit a country with capital punishment, more so now than when I was younger. I am happy to be corrected, but understand that women (and other groups) are second place citizens and that for me is a no no.
I know there are many decent, respectable and agreeable people who come from these countries and, all things being equal I am happy to know them. I am sorry to generalise, but this doesn't alter the fact that the religion and politics of some of these countries Stink.
Nothing personal.
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Not sure what you mean by second place citizens, but the area my wife's family is from in Malaysia, women have virtually the same freedoms as any western country I've been to, and I think most would be pretty insulted by comments like that. This is a state that's 70% non Muslim.
 
hash tag said:
"virtually".
70% non Muslim?
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Women in Malaysia have equal rights in law to men, albeit Muslim women are subject to more conservative social conventions.

Penang, where my wife is from is 50+% Chinese, ~10% Indian, and ~10% white, those people having complete religious freedom to practice Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism or whatever religion they please. Those rights are protected in law.
 
hash tag said:
I gather that Malaysia is liberalising. I am coming from rather extreme ethics in that I am reluctant to visit a country with capital punishment, more so now than when I was younger. I am happy to be corrected, but understand that women (and other groups) are second place citizens and that for me is a no no.
I know there are many decent, respectable and agreeable people who come from these countries and, all things being equal I am happy to know them. I am sorry to generalise, but this doesn't alter the fact that the religion and politics of some of these countries Stink.
Nothing personal.
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The politics of the country you live in stinks. It just does so from behind a perfumed veil of respectability. We prop up those regimes many of which we created at the end of the colonial era; we change those regimes we don't like; we sell the arms they use; we control the oil and resource trade; we launder the money they steal. We don't have a death penalty but our governments have had few qualms about killing opponents real and perceived, and shed few years for those who die because they're in the way.

And that's just foreign policy.
 
tim said:
The politics of the country you live in stinks. It just does so from behind a perfumed veil of respectability. We prop up those regimes many of which we created at the end of the colonial era; we change those regimes we don't like; we sell the arms they use; we control the oil and resource trade; we launder the money they steal. We don't have a death penalty but our governments have had few qualms about killing opponents real and perceived and sheds few years about those who die because they're in the way.

And that's just foreign policy.
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Not meaning to answer for Hash Tag but you can't really effectively boycott the country you live in although you can be critical of it's practices and condemn human rights abuses elsewhere at the same time. Most of those Islamic nations do have shit HR records and people are absolutely at liberty to make choices as to where they draw lines. Many people find judicial amputations, public executions, religious law, and the treatment of women and homosexuals in most muslim states to be reprehensible. That's not to say that some non-muslim states couldn't do better but, on balance, the worst state offenders are right there on that list. Chuck in China and you've got the vast majority of the worst human rights abusers on the planet. By all means highlight the extent to which other (western) nations are indirectly complicit in some it but that doesn't diminish the disgusting shit that these cunts are doing all on their own.
 
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Spymaster said:
Nope. These are the world's Islamic countries. With the exceptions of perhaps, Egypt, Jordan, and Morocco, there are none that I have any compulsion to visit whatsoever, either alone or in female company.

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I'd like to visit most of them. As to being vile regimes, most of them are, but that's hardly a uniquely Muslim trait. There are plenty of vile non-Muslim majority regimes around such as: Russia, China, Mexico, Venezuela, Colombia, India, Israel, Kenya, North Korea, the DRC, Congo (Brazaville), Bhuttan, Brazil, Zimbabwe, and the USA. Would you avoid visiting those too?

Also Syria is missing from your list of the Muslim world. An amazing country that I'd love to visit again, in a time of freedom and justice.
 
tim said:
As to being vile regimes, most of them are, but that's hardly a uniquely Muslim trait.
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It's not but look at that list and you'd be hard pushed to disagree that pretty much 100% of muslim states have vile regimes. Is there such a common denominator elsewhere?
 
Spymaster said:
Not meaning to answer for Hash Tag but you can't really effectively boycott the country you live in although you can be critical of it's practices and condemn human rights abuses elsewhere at the same time. Most of those Islamic nations do have shit HR records and people are absolutely at liberty to make choices as to where they draw lines. Many people find judicial amputations, public executions, religious law, and the treatment of women and homosexuals in many muslim states to be reprehensible. That's not to say that some non-muslim states couldn't do better but, on balance, the worst state offenders are right there on that list. Chuck in China and you've got the vast majority of the worst human rights abusers on the planet. By all means highlight the extent to which other (western) nations are indirectly complicit in some it but that doesn't diminish the disgusting shit that these cunts are doing all on their own.
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You can't boycott the country you live in, but that doesn't stop you from seeing it as it is. Something we tend not to do.

I posted my casually thrown together list of alternative nasties above before I'd seen your reply. Obviously, I agree with you about China, but the others I listed would be in the middle to tip of any list of nasties.
 
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