Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Rock and roll death watch (and indie landfill)

If Rock and Roll was really about to drop off its perch, South by South West wouldn’t be what it is.

RnR is still a burgeoning and creative force both at grass roots level and at the business end too.
 
Even if we accept your definition Rick and roll, whilst its fair enough to say that there are fewer album sales and fewer new big-stadium acts, that's quite different from saying it's dead. If anything, if say it's healthier than it's been for a while - loads of good bands around at the moment.
 
Even if we accept your definition Rick and roll, whilst its fair enough to say that there are fewer album sales and fewer new big-stadium acts, that's quite different from saying it's dead. If anything, if say it's healthier than it's been for a while - loads of good bands around at the moment.

Name some then?
 
The Magic Gang, Sheer mag, Girlpool, Screaming Females, Shame, Warmduscher, The Lovely Eggs, The Orielles, Snapped Ankles, Titus Andronicus, The Glorious Sons, Deerhunter, Protomartyr, Against Me!, Cabbage, Yak, Dream Wife, Creeper, Goat Girl, Japandroids, Shannon and the Clams, Superchunk, etc., etc.
I haven't got time to Google all of them but those I have had chance to mostly seem to be thirty somethings. Hardly relevant to todays youth.

Of course there are good rock and roll acts around now, just as there are good folk acts and good trad jazz acts.

When did a guitar band last top the charts? Or even go top five?
 
I haven't got time to Google all of them but those I have had chance to mostly seem to be thirty somethings. Hardly relevant to todays youth.

Of course there are good rock and roll acts around now, just as there are good folk acts and good trad jazz acts.

When did a guitar band last top the charts? Or even go top five?

I don't think they're mostly in their 30s, at all.

What do the charts matter?
 
Fair enough. But it's not the meaure by which I'd measure the health of rock and roll.
Ok, but this is the problem isn't it? There are no good metrics to measure this. If not by looking at what people are listening to, then what method do you propose?
 
Ok, but this is the problem isn't it? There are no good metrics to measure this. If not by looking at what people are listening to, then what method do you propose?

I'll be convinced rock nd roll's dead when there's not lots of bands making good guitar records (regardless of whether it's what's the kids are predominantly downloading).
 
I'll be convinced rock nd roll's dead when there's not lots of bands making good guitar records (regardless of whether it's what's the kids are predominantly downloading).
And that is absolutely a fair enough method to use.
 
It goes and comes in waves though, like everything else. I’ve been listening to RnR since I was old enough to turn on a radio, and sometimes it seems like there isn’t much going on and sometimes it seems like there aren’t enough nights in the week to accommodate all the gigs I want to see. Right now, it looks to me like there’s something bubbling up from underneath.

It often happens to coincide with the waves of economical dearth and plenty. Like lipstick sales and hemlines heght and heavyweight boxers.

The charts though? Even when they were a Thing they were mostly peripheral to what was happening at the most creative level.

Slo-mo Are you really saying that RnR is dead because it’s not selling by the tonne? The only stuff that’s selling in hugh quantities any more is games and telly. And trainers.
 
Ok, but this is the problem isn't it? There are no good metrics to measure this. If not by looking at what people are listening to, then what method do you propose?
How about by the youth movements and fashions it's various incarnations have inspired?

In the 50's r'n'r gave rise to the rockabilly and teddy boy styles, in the 60's there was the mods and rockers and hippie styles, the 70's it was glam and punk and hair metal, the 80's the indie, goth and grunge styles, going into the 90's with the baggy look. That isn't meant to be an exhaustive list and yes, some of those styles have lived on in a minor way, but those styles were associated with certain types of rock music that came out of and defined those times. Perhaps the last time that r'n'r had a significant influence on youth fashion was the late 90's/early 00's when the The Strokes etc brought in the skinny jeans look (not that that period was any great high point for the music or anything else).

But in general I'd say that since the 80's the most influential type of music on youth style hasn't been any kind of white boy rnr at all, it's been hiphop. Sure, rock music still exists and there's still plenty of rock bands out there - some are even quite good - but there hasn't been a new rock-inspired youth movement or fashion for almost 2 decades now, whereas there used to be 3 or 4 every decade. The fact is that rock music simply doesn't matter that much to most kids these days, they don't define themselves by it like teenagers used to it the past, and there's far too many other things for them to get into these days.
 
Last edited:
I think that’s an outdated criterion Dr. Furface . These days the palette for self expression is much more vast, and the sources of inspiration and interest are limitless. Cultural tribalism was much more necessary for us than it is for youngsters now.
 
Yeah, I just said that!


Sorry yeah. I see now that I hurried to reply and only skim read your last paragraph.



But I’d also argue that it’s always been a minority that’s really truly actually properly into music. Like loads of people read, but not everyone is into literature. I mean, not just buying something they hear on the radio but really knowing about who’s who and what’s what. So many people say “Oh I love this!” but when I ask them about it, or why they like it, or anything else they like, they can’t answer. Because they’ve not really thought about it. It’s just been sold to them in some way.

Every so often it becomes fantastically hip to be seen to be into something (witness the band T.shirts on sale in Top Shop) but only some fraction of those people will really be involved and knowledgeable.

I wonder if the waves I mentioned earlier also follow the aging curve of those who were sold RnR as a commodity. It has to be repackaged and resold every so often to be marketed, but in the background it’s always bubbling away somewhere like a spring head. To those who aren’t deeply involved it looks like it’s disappeared but for those who are really plugged into it, it’s not gone anywhere.

People who only buy into it when it’s pushed at them aren’t going to seek out new music, they’re much more passive about it, only hearing what gets onto the radio or into the news or a movie soundtrack. There’s a constant minority of people for whom music (of any kind... or theatre, or literature or anything else) is a part of their daily life, but that group of people isn’t actually much larger than it ever was. It just seems that way when music gets commodified.
 
I think that’s an outdated criterion Dr. Furface . These days the palette for self expression is much more vast, and the sources of inspiration and interest are limitless. Cultural tribalism was much more necessary for us than it is for youngsters now.


but thats the point - rock'n'roll - pop music generally - no longer plays the same pivitol role in culture that it once did. Its too difuse. There's multiple other cultural playgrounds to indulge in out there. Its no longer got the sub-culture/outsider status. And kids aren't forming bands in anything like the numbers they used to. For maybe 30/40 years pop music was a matter of life and death - a religion - for a significant proportion of young people. Now its everywhere and nowhere - its just a soundtrack - infinitely varied, tailored to whatever you want - but no longer the vital identity marker for so many (especially the alienated, disempowered, the outsiders)

Its very difficult to imagine a group or artist having the same impact that the likes of elvis or the pistols or bowie etc etc etc did. And yes - hip hop/rap has superseded guitar based bands - but again, i cant see another public NME or NWA giving middle america a fit of the vapours.

As the article i posted earlier argues - if anything ever comes close to that again wrt to bands - it will be female led.
 
I don’t disagree with any of that Kaka Tim .

I’m disagreeing with the idea that RnR is on its deathbed. I don’t think it will ever be at the forefront of youth culture again (I already said this earlier on) but it’s not dying. It will always serve a purpose and always be a place for a certain tribe to express itself. I think it will always have something new and vital to offer, but in a much more limited way than it once did.

No huge cultural bulge lasts forever.
 
I don’t disagree with any of that Kaka Tim .

I’m disagreeing with the idea that RnR is on its deathbed. I don’t think it will ever be at the forefront of youth culture again (I already said this earlier on) but it’s not dying. It will always serve a purpose and always be a place for a certain tribe to express itself. I think it will always have something new and vital to offer, but in a much more limited way than it once did.

No huge cultural bulge lasts forever.

yeah - the guitar band is arena is a lot more marginalised - but will always have an enduring appeal (ive been playing in guitar bands for over years and still love it as much as ever). Its sad that its not a thing so much for kids these days - its a great social bonding - even life saving - experience - a bulwark against increasing social isolation. There's still good bands out there - but there also waaay too much same old same old with an over reverence of the past. And its a lot more of a middle class thing these days.
 
First off, rock and roll isn’t about having a real drummer, it’s about the electric guitar. There are plenty of RnR bands that don’t have a drummer. Suicide, Big Black, Carter USM, The Kills....

(ETA Although not all RnR bands use the electric guitar either.... like Suicide...)

Second, just because you (or I) aren’t aware of a new scene bubbling up doesn’t mean RnR is dead. Right now in South London there’s a really interesting thing going on with a whole bunch of bands. Fat White Family/Moonlandingz, Phobophobes, Pregoblin, Meatraffle, Insecure Men, Shame, Goat Girl, Hotel Lux... And there are other scenes happening in other cities too.

Hookworms from Leeds formed in 2010, they’re on their third LP and they’re doing alright. Starcrawler from LA are touring their first LP and they’re barely out of their teens.

The NME has folded but we have some pretty good online organs: The Quietus, Pitchfork, Drowned in Sound... There are some really interesting satellite projects too, like HATE magazine.

Studio based music, keyboard based music, like dance, EDM, grime, Dubstep, hip hop etc are huge now, and will probably stay bigger than RnR for the foreseeable future. Maybe because it’s cheaper and easier to make and commodify than RnR (lots of people in a band, rehearsal space, touring, contracts, it’s all more logistically complicated at every level).

It’s bollocks that only young’uns are into RnR and it’s total bollocks that being into it as a grown up is “sad”. I’m in my fifties and I was as out at a gig the other night with a few fellow oldsters and a room full of truly gorgeous bright creative young’uns. And we weren’t the saddoes at the back of the room, there’s plenty of interaction. In fact there’s mutual respect because we’ve been around and know more, and they’re keeping it vital and reinventing the form.

I’d hate to be without Iggy and the 13th Floor Elevators, but I’d hate it more if that was all I had to listen to forever. The thrill of hearing a new band on the radio or at a gig, that I know I’m going to enjoy hearing new music from in the future never gets dull for me. And I know I’m not alone in that.

The huge response to the death of Mark E Smith is a reminder of how important RnR is to a lot of people. Not just people over 40, but a lot of young people also respect and love The Fall. And I’m seeing my nieces and nephews and godchildren exploring RnR too. One of them came to me recently and asked me to tell her about Sylvia Plath and Ted Hughes, and Lou Reed and Patti Smith too. Another is sharing with me her journey through Bowie’s back catalogue and introducing me to new bands she’s falling in love with, and she seems to form a new band with her mates every month.

It may never be at the forefront of teen culture again, but it’s not going anywhere for the time being, that’s for sure.

Well that's 'Post of the year' won already. Top work
 
When did a guitar band last top the charts?
I was curious about this, the last one I could remember was My Chemical Romance in 2006 (Emo was the last significant rock based youth music/fashion movement I've been aware of too) - unless you include Scouting For Girls or Coldplay (I wouldn't), there's been nothing since 2009, and that was Rage Against The Machine's christmas number 1 thing. Nice if that that particular hit - the result of an anti-pop campaign by a load of old people - was the last gasp of rock as a chart-topping phenomenon.

Before RATM there was the ting tings (2008) and the Kaiser Chiefs (2007). But that's it.
 
I was curious about this, the last one I could remember was My Chemical Romance in 2006 (Emo was the last significant rock based youth music/fashion movement I've been aware of too) - unless you include Scouting For Girls or Coldplay (I wouldn't), there's been nothing since 2009, and that was Rage Against The Machine's christmas number 1 thing. Nice if that that particular hit - the result of an anti-pop campaign by a load of old people - was the last gasp of rock as a chart-topping phenomenon.

Before RATM there was the ting tings (2008) and the Kaiser Chiefs (2007). But that's it.
Not sure what happened there, but I can't take any credit for asking that question!
 
Back
Top Bottom