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Re-opening Schools?

redsquirrel said:
So Edie your argument is that teachers, who on average were were already working excessive hours pre-COVID, should give up even more of their free-time to give extra feedback to your son - and everyone else's kid.

There are major problems with education system at all levels but virtually none of it is the fault of workers.

EDIT: Oh and they should do this while also moving their lessons online.
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Clearly no. There should be a national curriculum but beyond that Teachers should be allowed to teach as they see fit. They should have responsibility for the kids in their class, including letting parents know how their kid is doing once a term, with a single meaningful sentence. The performance of the school should be the Headteachers concern, not the parents. And wider Social care and food parcels should not be the responsibility of school.
 
Is this the same young man that previously benefitted from getting a period of something more like 1 to 1 teaching a while back, or a different one? Because that struck me at the time, such a textbook example of what suport is required for some people to avoid the system neglecting them and squandering some of their potential. Especially where the outer label of laziness peels off, revealing the underlying realities on the fronts of motivation, self-esteem, belief, attention, quality time, others taking it and his fate as seriously as they ask him to do. And yet all these well known things are not an inherent part of the system. In a world drowning in best practice jargon, actual best practices came there few.
 
FWIW research suggests there is no possible way to instill motivation or enthusiasm in a child, and the best teachers can do is direct what motivation the kids bring with them to productive activities and not actively discourage them. There is no magic button to make a lazy child stop being lazy.

Nor is there anything in particular wrong with being lazy. Figuring out how to do the minimum amount of work and get away with it is a relatively sophisticated metacognitive activity, and one likely to aid in the development of useful transferrable skills. Part of the distinction between 'bright' and 'gifted' is beavering away constantly at whatever task has been set with consistently good rsesults vs doing something acceptable in a short space of time without really concentrating or trying because the activity doesn't present a challenge.
 
SpookyFrank said:
FWIW research suggests there is no possible way to instill motivation or enthusiasm in a child, and the best teachers can do is direct what motivation the kids bring with them to productive activities and not actively discourage them. There is no magic button to make a lazy child stop being lazy.

Nor is there anything in particular wrong with being lazy. Figuring out how to do the minimum amount of work and get away with it is a relatively sophisticated metacognitive activity, and one likely to aid in the development of useful transferrable skills. Part of the distinction between 'bright' and 'gifted' is beavering away constantly at whatever task has been set with consistently good rsesults vs doing something acceptable in a short space of time without really concentrating or trying because the activity doesn't present a challenge.
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What an absolute load of rubbish 😂
 
Edie said:
Are you lazy? If no, then the above doesn’t apply to you.

My sons Maths teacher, his GCSE Maths teacher, set work for him for 6 WEEKS without checking whether he’d done any of it. Without contacting me to tell me he’d done nothing. This is whilst she’s “working from home”. When I actually chased her and asked if he was in fact submitting work, she says yes he is. When I challenged her and said ‘please send it back to me so I can see it’ it turns out he had done hardly nothing and she hadn’t even been bothered to check.

That my friend is laziness.
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You have absolutely no idea of how much teachers have to do. The workload is generally unmanagable, and that's without having to negotiate covid for oneself and family on top of doing that for the learners.

I can see why you're upset by the result of that, but don't blame the teachers. It's a total exercise in futility, because that's not where the problems lie.
 
Pickman's model said:
Says the woman who doesn't blame the Tory party for the state of schools today
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I absolutely do blame the Tory party, I just note that Labour bears some responsibility for the bullshit target and inspection culture. The over involvement of the state in education is the problem on both counts.
 
Mation said:
You have absolutely no idea of how much teachers have to do. The workload is generally unmanagable, and that's without having to negotiate covid for oneself and family on top of doing that for the learners.

I can see why you're upset by the result of that, but don't blame the teachers. It's a total exercise in futility, because that's not where the problems lie.
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What was she doing for 6 weeks then? Cos she sure as hell wasn’t checking that my son was doing Hegarty maths modules. She wasn’t writing lessons, cos they were Hegarty maths modules. And she wasn’t teaching online. I’d genuinely be interested to know.

How come is it that other schools manage to do so much better? Not just private schools, but schools in Leeds?

This attitude of no one taking responsibility for shit is half the problem. I appreciate that teachers work within a system, and schools operate within a system, and that constant state interference is the bloody problem (which incidentally private schools don’t have). But also, at the end of the day, that teacher, his school, need to step the fuck up too like schools around them are.
 
Edie said:
What was she doing for 6 weeks then? Cos she sure as hell wasn’t checking that my son was doing Hegarty maths modules. She wasn’t writing lessons, cos they were Hegarty maths modules. And she wasn’t teaching online. I’d genuinely be interested to know.

How come is it that other schools manage to do so much better? Not just private schools, but schools in Leeds?
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I don't know. Getting to grips with 5 million new and different safety procedures and reporting procedures, all of which are constantly changing so you can't become familiar with them. Teaching with unfamiliar materials and working out how to do the marking in this context. Working different hours. Working in different teams. Simply having too many things to do that is possible in the amount of time you have. You have to go home at some point.

Everyone is working out how the hell to do this and I'd imagine that even the places that appear to be doing better are probably struggling like mad, too.
 
Mation said:
I don't know. Getting to grips with 5 million new and different safety procedures and reporting procedures, all of which are constantly changing so you can't become familiar with them. Teaching with unfamiliar materials and working out how to do the marking in this context. Working different hours. Working in different teams. Simply having too many things to do that is possible in the amount of time you have. You have to go home at some point.

Everyone is working out how the hell to do this and I'd imagine that even the places that appear to be doing better are probably struggling like mad, too.
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And getting a constant stream of shit from parents about it will be crushing for teachers' morale and thus their capacity to usefully deal with the tasks facing them. Enough teachers are quitting year on year as it is, driving even more out the door in what is going to be a miserable year anyway is a good way to ensure that lots of kids get some half arsed, completely impersonal 'online learning' experience, and nothing else, forever.
 
SpookyFrank said:
FWIW research suggests there is no possible way to instill motivation or enthusiasm in a child, and the best teachers can do is direct what motivation the kids bring with them to productive activities and not actively discourage them. There is no magic button to make a lazy child stop being lazy.

Nor is there anything in particular wrong with being lazy. Figuring out how to do the minimum amount of work and get away with it is a relatively sophisticated metacognitive activity, and one likely to aid in the development of useful transferrable skills. Part of the distinction between 'bright' and 'gifted' is beavering away constantly at whatever task has been set with consistently good rsesults vs doing something acceptable in a short space of time without really concentrating or trying because the activity doesn't present a challenge.
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By the way, the way to instil motivation and enthusiasm for something is to leave teachers the fuck alone and let them use their own interest and excitement in a subject to inspire kids.

Christ talk about lowest common denominator response Frank, that the best we aspire to offer our kids is to ‘not actively discourage them’? Expectations met some of the time.

This attitude is part of the problem.

Why do you think private school kids do so well, with so much confidence? Is it just the money? Or is it that expectations, right from the get go, are high. You are expected to attend on time, expected to pay attention, expected to do your homework, expected to be aspirational, expected to do well, expected to aim high.

Can you imagine a world where a private school predicts a kid lower grades than they are actually achieving?! No. Wouldn’t happen.

Our kids are saddled with underfunding, over inspecting, league table nonsense combined with a complete lack of care and no expectations.

So you can take your research that shows it’s impossible to instill motivation or enthusiasm, and you can take your ‘no one cares if your lazy’ attitude and you can stick it up your arse. Cos our kids deserve a shit load better than that.
 
Edie said:
What was she doing for 6 weeks then? Cos she sure as hell wasn’t checking that my son was doing Hegarty maths modules. She wasn’t writing lessons, cos they were Hegarty maths modules. And she wasn’t teaching online. I’d genuinely be interested to know.

How come is it that other schools manage to do so much better? Not just private schools, but schools in Leeds?

This attitude of no one taking responsibility for shit is half the problem. I appreciate that teachers work within a system, and schools operate within a system, and that constant state interference is the bloody problem (which incidentally private schools don’t have). But also, at the end of the day, that teacher, his school, need to step the fuck up too like schools around them are.
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She might well have been struggling to cope like many of us who had to suddenly change the way we work overnight whilst still meeting our young people's needs and management targets. The whole basis of teaching is face to face work and that stopped overnight, it was a huge blow.

Your boy was offered a space at school wasn't he? What happened?
 
Edie said:
By the way, the way to instil motivation and enthusiasm for something is to leave teachers the fuck alone and let them use their own interest and excitement in a subject to inspire kids.

Christ talk about lowest common denominator response Frank, that the best we aspire to offer our kids is to ‘not actively discourage them’? Expectations met some of the time.

This attitude is part of the problem.

Why do you think private school kids do so well, with so much confidence? Is it just the money? Or is it that expectations, right from the get go, are high. You are expected to attend on time, expected to pay attention, expected to do your homework, expected to be aspirational, expected to do well, expected to aim high.

Can you imagine a world where a private school predicts a kid lower grades than they are actually achieving?! No. Wouldn’t happen.

Our kids are saddled with underfunding, over inspecting, league table nonsense combined with a complete lack of care and no expectations.

So you can take your research that shows it’s impossible to instill motivation or enthusiasm, and you can take your ‘no one cares if your lazy’ attitude and you can stick it up your arse. Cos our kids deserve a shit load better than that.
Click to expand...

I went to private school </not real urbans> and you are right in that expectation was high. But it wasn’t just high at school, it was high at home too. You are dealing with an entire community that values academia. That has huge levels of resources at home and at school. We went on at least three theatre trips a year, we had our own, brand new text books every year that we didn’t share, we had loads of extra curricular stuff on which we were encouraged to do both by parents and teachers.... we were told all the time that we were the brightest and the cleverest and that we would be the movers and shakers of the world. We were doing practice papers for GCSE in year seven. Parents took active interest because they could, so messages from school were reinforced at home. We weren’t loved any more or less than any other kids, we weren’t actually any cleverer than any other group of kids, but boy does it make it easier when you live in a nice home in a quiet suburb with low crime, aren’t arriving in school cold and hungry and get to have nice holidays and lots of toys.

I also remember friends crying because they ‘only’ got 80% in an end of topic test and not 100%, I remember them vomiting with nerves before their exams, one took a gap year because she didn’t get into Oxford and that wasn’t good enough, I really struggled my first year in uni because I had to really think for myself instead of being coached and spoon fed the exact info I needed. I look at my old school mates now and most of them are arseholes tbh. I think about how little pastoral support was offered and how when I was in sixth form and was suicidal, rather than ask what was wrong, my last ever school report was that I needed to apply myself if I wanted to get the grades I wanted. It was noted my usual enthusiasm and cheery nature had waned. But I needed to buck up was the attitude I got back. It just made me want to die even more. I didn’t get great A level results, not in comparison to school expectations at any rate. I think about how hard it was for the kids not naturally academic, how kids were quietly asked to leave so results wouldn’t be screwed up, how any other form of intelligence was not valued at all. I am very unconvinced that following the private model is the way we want to progress education.
 
Red Cat said:
She might well have been struggling to cope like many of us who had to suddenly change the way we work overnight whilst still meeting our young people's needs and management targets. The whole basis of teaching is face to face work and that stopped overnight, it was a huge blow.

Your boy was offered a space at school wasn't he? What happened?
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Why are you making excuses for her? The majority of his other teachers did a lot better than her. Are we not allowed to hold these people to account? Should we be quiet and just accept shoddy service?

And you know what happened with his space at school. He’s 15 years old, his mates weren’t going, he refused to go. But you know what? You cannot compare a 15yo not doing what’s expected of him to a professional adult teacher. And using that comparison to shut me down (not argue against me, shut me down) is dubious. Or am I missing your point- if so, say it straightforwardly please.

S☼I said:
Sounds like your kid IS a bit lazy tbh, having done little work during lockdown. So it'd be dishonest to say his attitude was spot on all the time
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He really is fucking lazy. Absolute pita. Thinks he knows everything and is gonna do alright. The fact he sometimes does do really well without trying will be his downfall.
 
purenarcotic said:
I went to private school </not real urbans> and you are right in that expectation was high. But it wasn’t just high at school, it was high at home too. You are dealing with an entire community that values academia. That has huge levels of resources at home and at school. We went on at least three theatre trips a year, we had our own, brand new text books every year that we didn’t share, we had loads of extra curricular stuff on which we were encouraged to do both by parents and teachers.... we were told all the time that we were the brightest and the cleverest and that we would be the movers and shakers of the world. We were doing practice papers for GCSE in year seven. Parents took active interest because they could, so messages from school were reinforced at home. We weren’t loved any more or less than any other kids, we weren’t actually any cleverer than any other group of kids, but boy does it make it easier when you live in a nice home in a quiet suburb with low crime, aren’t arriving in school cold and hungry and get to have nice holidays and lots of toys.

I also remember friends crying because they ‘only’ got 80% in an end of topic test and not 100%, I remember them vomiting with nerves before their exams, one took a gap year because she didn’t get into Oxford and that wasn’t good enough, I really struggled my first year in uni because I had to really think for myself instead of being coached and spoon fed the exact info I needed. I look at my old school mates now and most of them are arseholes tbh. I think about how little pastoral support was offered and how when I was in sixth form and was suicidal, rather than ask what was wrong, my last ever school report was that I needed to apply myself if I wanted to get the grades I wanted. It was noted my usual enthusiasm and cheery nature had waned. But I needed to buck up was the attitude I got back. It just made me want to die even more. I didn’t get great A level results, not in comparison to school expectations at any rate. I think about how hard it was for the kids not naturally academic, how kids were quietly asked to leave so results wouldn’t be screwed up, how any other form of intelligence was not valued at all. I am very unconvinced that following the private model is the way we want to progress education.
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This is interesting. I have to go out but I’ll have a think on this.
 
Red Cat said:
The point of the education system is to reproduce a system of inequality. The idea that there's any education system free from the needs and demands of powerful groups is absurd.
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I don’t think that’s most peoples or most teachers idea of what education is? That sounds a little out there tbh like you’ve spent too long in a bubble.
 
Edie said:
I don’t think that’s most peoples or most teachers idea of what education is? That sounds a little out there tbh like you’ve spent too long in a bubble.
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RC is talking from a structural perspective, not about what individual teachers might think. Kids in ‘shit’ areas don’t do as well as kids in ‘nice areas’ - you cannot possibly think that is coincidental? Look at what I wrote, what I said about being the movers and shakers was an actual quote from my biology teacher. She followed it up with how other children at other schools would be the ones working for us. Apart from making me feel a bit sick when I think of it now, what do you think that gives children being told that? How do you think it shapes their view of how the world is meant to be structured?
 
Edie said:
Why are you making excuses for her? The majority of his other teachers did a lot better than her. Are we not allowed to hold these people to account? Should we be quiet and just accept shoddy service?

And you know what happened with his space at school. He’s 15 years old, his mates weren’t going, he refused to go. But you know what? You cannot compare a 15yo not doing what’s expected of him to a professional adult teacher. And using that comparison to shut me down (not argue against me, shut me down) is dubious. Or am I missing your point- if so, say it straightforwardly please.

He really is fucking lazy. Absolute pita. Thinks he knows everything and is gonna do alright. The fact he sometimes does do really well without trying will be his downfall.
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If you're not happy with this particular teacher take it up with her and the school but here on this thread you come over as scapegoating teachers that work in the state education system.

Well, no, I don't recall exactly what happened to your son's place at school. I remember he did very well for a week (?) with almost 1-1 teaching with, I think , the deputy head? And then I don't know what happened. I remember it was difficult to get him to go but I have no idea what was done about that, whether the school worked with you, if they shared your concerns, if the difference in how he worked when getting 1-1 was acknowledged and informed any support given on returning in September etc. You're focused on this one teacher, but there's a whole school there with a senior mgmt team and pastoral support and a form teacher, head of year.

My point - is not to shut you down. Why would I do that? Although you've tried to shut others down by talking about what kind of school they went to. I don't share your politics but I'm not so bothered by you having a different point of view that I can't hear it.
 
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