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Question Time tonight

On the main Corbyn facebook discussion group several people seem to be arguing that she deserves everything she gets for voting for the Tories in the first place.

While I understand the sentiment of being upset at people who thought 'I'll vote Tory because they will protect me and only punish the unemployed and disabled etc' the idea that you would actually refuse to accept someone belatedly realising that they were wrong is really, really stupid.
Yeah.
Way too much emphasis on her voting record tbh; anyone who knows Kent will be well aware that many (most) working class voters tend to vote against their own interests out of some deferential/respectable/family loyalty culture; there's a reason why it's a sea of blue down there. Some of those tears might have been about realisation, yeah...but perhaps some degree of realisation of betrayal by those that she saw as her 'betters' etc. Difficult to articulate after many ales...but like many distinct locales, who have to have lived there to fully get it.

The other thing worth noting here is intra-capitalist battle about the state subsidy of labour costs. I'll wait till I'm sober to tackle that, though.
 
Telling that not one of the panelists attempted to offer any response whatsoever to her point. Albeit somewhat disconnected to the main question being discussed, her contribution merited at least some recognition.

Their only response to the gap between the minimum wage increasing and tax credits being cut is to grandstand about other issues or talk about their record of reducing 'worklessness'. There is no real honest response that they could come up with other than, shut up and wait and be glad for what we do allow you to have that isn't an admission that they just don't care about making the poor poorer.

Bit surprised that it hasn't been brought up on this thread yet that the woman is actually a small business owner. I'm just curious if that has changed the opinions of anyone on how they feel about this woman. It's certainly made me a lot less sympathetic, she is hardly a representative case of those who will be hit hardest by these cuts.
 
Bit surprised that it hasn't been brought up on this thread yet that the woman is actually a small business owner. I'm just curious if that has changed the opinions of anyone on how they feel about this woman. It's certainly made me a lot less sympathetic, she is hardly a representative case of those who will be hit hardest by these cuts.

Why would that make you less sympathetic, out of interest?
 
Their only response to the gap between the minimum wage increasing and tax credits being cut is to grandstand about other issues or talk about their record of reducing 'worklessness'. There is no real honest response that they could come up with other than, shut up and wait and be glad for what we do allow you to have that isn't an admission that they just don't care about making the poor poorer.

Bit surprised that it hasn't been brought up on this thread yet that the woman is actually a small business owner. I'm just curious if that has changed the opinions of anyone on how they feel about this woman. It's certainly made me a lot less sympathetic, she is hardly a representative case of those who will be hit hardest by these cuts.

not massively reduced it, depends, theres 'being a small business owner' and being glorified self employed. Either way she come across like every small business owner ever 'hardest game in the world' etc. I have to chide my brother for doing it 'You're a walking cliche- if it all goes tits up tomorrow who still owns all the assets, outstanding capital and will recieve any monies owed? Who keeps profit during the good times?' and so on. Like a poundshop jiminy cricket. but small gigs like that aren't like running a small factory or three local retail outlets, a couple of car garages etc. lol
 
She runs a nail bar out of her front room, and could easily have ended up doing that 'cause she couldn't find any other work - that makes her pretty representative imo.
Pretty much agree with that. I don't want to go over all the MoP stuff again, but she evidently does not own the the means of production when she works out of the front room she rents.
She deserved some response from those fuckers on the panel, particularly Rudd.
 
Pretty much agree with that. I don't want to go over all the MoP stuff again, but she evidently does not own the the means of production when she works out of the front room she rents.
She deserved some response from those fuckers on the panel, particularly Rudd.
the response they've got plays badly in text form. It would go down like a cup of cold sick on tele.

"The reforms to welfare set out in the Summer Budget are fair and necessary, and will take tax credit spending back only to 2008 levels, with most working households better off once all welfare reforms have come into force by 2017."
 
the response they've got plays badly in text form. It would go down like a cup of cold sick on tele.

"The reforms to welfare set out in the Summer Budget are fair and necessary, and will take tax credit spending back only to 2008 levels, with most working households better off once all welfare reforms have come into force by 2017."
Indeed, but there was certainly an 'open-goal' for Labour bod there; surprised she preferred to jolly along about that 'bubble' crap rather than address the real (emotive) point raised and go for he tory jugular.
 
Pretty much agree with that. I don't want to go over all the MoP stuff again, but she evidently does not own the the means of production when she works out of the front room she rents.
She deserved some response from those fuckers on the panel, particularly Rudd.
Rudd's embarrassment was pretty spectacular. Dimblebum wouldn't allow anyone else to respond, as her comment didn't fit his strict interpretation of relevance.
 
Though I had a small rant above, I was pleased to see Rudd taken aback.
They really don't like confrontation from their disheartened voters.
And Dimbledour showed his true self as usual, let's get back to moaning about the Labour Party.
 
Though I had a small rant above, I was pleased to see Rudd taken aback.
They really don't like confrontation from their disheartened voters. And Dimbledour showed his true self as usual, let's get back to moaning about the Labour Party.

I liked your 'rant'. I find it impossible to feel any compassion whatsoever for anybody who votes Vermin. I can't switch over from the Manchester protest to suddenly showing some heart for somebody who has voted in a party that does not give a screw about anybody other than lining the pockets of the rich and destroying the public services. You would need to have been living under a stone not to realise the devastation that Thatcher brought to this country.

Whatever was going on in her mind when she voted it most certainly wasn't compassion for the wider society.

I find it mind boggling that people chop and change their political allegiances as if they were stood at Woolworth's Pick 'n' Mix Principles counter.
 
Bit surprised that it hasn't been brought up on this thread yet that the woman is actually a small business owner. I'm just curious if that has changed the opinions of anyone on how they feel about this woman. It's certainly made me a lot less sympathetic, she is hardly a representative case of those who will be hit hardest by these cuts.

WTAF. The local guy who does window cleaning is, I suppose, a small business owner, and he's possibly a company director too. He doesn't really own the means of production though, he just owns some ladders and buckets.
 
From the video interview afterwards, the woman concerned made a big deal about how she's not the only one affected, she's just one of millions, it's not all about her. But she voted Tory on the basis that they wouldn't screw her over. Presumably she also didn't believe that Labour wouldn't, or would do better with the situation generally.

The problem I see now for Labour here is that they were extremely weak on the idea that they wouldn't do worse than the Tories. Their platform was basically very similar and every vague hint at something different was slated by Tory PR and the press and not well defended at all, possibly because it was arse in the first place. So Labour MPs right now are in a bind when it comes to addressing this. They can say "yeah, look, you can't trust the Tories, see" but that's not a strong position if you're also seen as untrustworthy and can't say you would have done any better. Corbynite anti-austerity policies are a help there given that they at least break from the "we're basically the same but we'd do it more efficiently, honest" position, but start to say that and you're open to attacks on the basis that you're saying your party was doing it all wrong previously so why should anyone trust you to be doing it better now? U-turns. Plus all the usual "dead going unburied, hates the Queen" attacks.

As time goes on, there's the possibility for Labour to get a consistent policy and PR position that might make them look more solid, but right now there's not a lot they can say without really opening themselves up. They're better off just sniping about Tory voters now regretting it and getting some small barbs in but not concentrating on them.

Just to be clear here, the main problem here is that Labour were really really shit in the last election and have been shit for years.
 
I find it mind boggling that people chop and change their political allegiances as if they were stood at Woolworth's Pick 'n' Mix Principles counter.

Teenagers may have allegiances that chop and change. Grown-ups generally don't, but many adults don't have strong party allegiances at all.

Back in the days when almost everyone in Britain who voted did so for one or other of the two main parties, the level of allegiance was higher. Perhaps the majority still have definite allegiances which change rarely (hence lots of safe seats), but fewer and fewer do. The choices many people make about which party to vote for are often not really allegiances. They are just guesses about what will turn out for the best, about who can be trusted, about who should be 'given a chance' (or not) and, yes, as you suggest, these choices can be a little bit like consumer choices.


I'm not sure what to make of left-wingers on Facebook, or wherever they are, who are spiteful towards some poor bloody mug who voted Tory. Perhaps if I met someone like that (one of the spiteful ones, I mean, not a Tory-voting mug) in real life, it would be easier to figure out what was going on. Maybe these people are just kids for whom politics and voting is some daft little game of identity that brings with it a tendency to be spiteful towards anyone in another gang. Maybe they are very sensitive people who are so distraught about the election of a Tory government that they are tearfully lashing out at any Tory voter within striking distance. Maybe they are nasty people whose compassion for others is at best highly selective and really just a thin cover for bossiness and bullying. Maybe they are just pissed or stoned and talking bollocks. Maybe they are joking to wind up people who are foolish enough to take their comments seriously. I don't know - I just don't come across anyone like that - and it's probably best for me not to think about it much.

What I do know is that people make crap choices about all sorts of things. Fucksake, people marry the wrong people, drive while pissed out of their heads, choose the wrong occupation, take the wrong drugs or gamble. Some people support Leyton Orient. Some people vote foolishly. In fact, many do. People seriously involved in politics will want to persuade those people to change their minds. Surely this is obvious, though also easier said than done.

Famously, Tony Blair and his chums understood that politics was about winning people over, including Tory voters. There is now a rather different Labour leader and I think he is also a firm believer in winning people over. To what extent he will succeed I don't know (probably not enough to win the next general election, but it's far too early to make predictions about 2020), but my impression of Corbyn is that he is a world away from the spiteful types.
 
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this cunt can get into the furnace, jobs factory cunt. No I don't have to believe you. Alistair Darling quoting without irony
 
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