Prince Andrew, Duke of York, named in underage 'sex slave' lawsuit
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Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Agree with you as a matter of principle, of course, though windsor doesn't want it be a 'testing evidence' type trial. It will be undermine the complainant, in the most gruesome way.
Fwiw, if it does go to trial, it will be an uphill task for Victoria Giuffre to get a conviction. Might get proof of his many lies and that he was at Tramp, but the lack of forensics and other supporting evidence makes it a pretty high hurdle. I do, I might add, believe her.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
It's a civil trial, so a conviction is not a potential outcome, though.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Yeah, just loose language on my part. 'Judgement' I suppose.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
It's a civil trial, he won't be convicted if she wins. You're convicted by a criminal trial.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
That's not really an excuse, this point has come up frequently.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Well, that's me telt.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
UrbaneFox
They've doubled in price
OK, but I'm still going to like this bit about the soft toys on his bed.
Lucy Mangan in the Guardian:
Ghislaine, Prince Andrew and the Paedophile review – a grisly story of sexual abuse and royal palaces
How did a newspaper tycoon’s daughter become a paedophile’s accomplice? And how does the royal family fit in? Abuse survivors and others speak out in this disappointingly brief show
"Page also reveals that the prince keeps “50 or 60 soft toys” on his bed and a laminated photo of them at his bedside. If the maids don’t put them back in exactly the order shown, he shouts, screams and becomes “verbally abusive”.
You could argue that this is not relevant to the claims mounting against him as a result of his friendship with Epstein, of course. That’s the friendship (as we are shown again in a clip of the infamous interview with Emily Maitlis, which becomes no less excruciating with the passage of time) Andrew claimed endured after Epstein’s conviction for child abuse because of “my tendency to be too honourable”.
On the other hand, what could be more relevant than such glaring proof of how deep the childishness and sense of entitlement runs in the man?"
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steveseagull
Well-Known Member
justin credible
Active Member
False memories happen all the time, they do not require the intervention of a therapist or hypnotist although they can and do occur as a result of quack psychotherapy, often including hypnotic elements, such as EMDR.
I know a fair amount about this having been on the receiving end of psychogtherapeutic abuse from a notorious psychologist who specialises in recovering memories of satanic ritual abuse, although she concealed her beliefs and association from me during the course of therapy. I eventually left when her beliefs became obvious, although she still denied them. Later on, 2 years exactly after I left therapy, her associations wtih people like Valerie Sinason became apparent online. I now understand that this is to do with the legal window for suing a therapist for malpractice, it has to be within 2 years of last contact.
I have experienced many traumatic abuses in my life but I am very clear that I have never been involved in a satanic cult, contrary to the insistence of the psychologist whose opinion was that the fact that I did not recall such abuse was because it was so traumatic that I had repressed the memories. The fact that I had no memories of being abused by a satanic cult was incontrovertible proof that it must have happened in her eyes at least.
This documentary has a good overview of the science of false memories
My experience of abusive psychotherapy had many similarities to that of this young woman. I have PTSD and am very distresed about what happend to me, however I do not have the challenges in terms of serious ongoing mental illness that this young woman has. Given the challenges she is facing I am extremely impressed with her very thoughtful and thorough video.
As for Prince Andrew I am definitely not a fan (understatement) and I am disgusted by his friendship with Epstein as well as his activities as UK Trade Ambassador. I am not sure what to make of his claims about false memories until I know more about Ms Giuffre's therapist. I know of many therapists who practice dangerous recovered memory therapies, here in the UK and all over the world.
Having said that, a therapist is not neccessary for false memories to occur. The tendency for groups of people to confirm and validate each others' false beliefs (as demonstrated by the Asch conformity experiments) demonstrates how social contagion can generate collective false beliefs including memories.
I know a fair amount about this having been on the receiving end of psychogtherapeutic abuse from a notorious psychologist who specialises in recovering memories of satanic ritual abuse, although she concealed her beliefs and association from me during the course of therapy. I eventually left when her beliefs became obvious, although she still denied them. Later on, 2 years exactly after I left therapy, her associations wtih people like Valerie Sinason became apparent online. I now understand that this is to do with the legal window for suing a therapist for malpractice, it has to be within 2 years of last contact.
I have experienced many traumatic abuses in my life but I am very clear that I have never been involved in a satanic cult, contrary to the insistence of the psychologist whose opinion was that the fact that I did not recall such abuse was because it was so traumatic that I had repressed the memories. The fact that I had no memories of being abused by a satanic cult was incontrovertible proof that it must have happened in her eyes at least.
This documentary has a good overview of the science of false memories
My experience of abusive psychotherapy had many similarities to that of this young woman. I have PTSD and am very distresed about what happend to me, however I do not have the challenges in terms of serious ongoing mental illness that this young woman has. Given the challenges she is facing I am extremely impressed with her very thoughtful and thorough video.
As for Prince Andrew I am definitely not a fan (understatement) and I am disgusted by his friendship with Epstein as well as his activities as UK Trade Ambassador. I am not sure what to make of his claims about false memories until I know more about Ms Giuffre's therapist. I know of many therapists who practice dangerous recovered memory therapies, here in the UK and all over the world.
Having said that, a therapist is not neccessary for false memories to occur. The tendency for groups of people to confirm and validate each others' false beliefs (as demonstrated by the Asch conformity experiments) demonstrates how social contagion can generate collective false beliefs including memories.
This ^
I thought intercourse was confirmed as happening. Where, and more importantly when it happened is the issue?
justin credible
Active Member
Valerie Sinason has featured extensively in the excellent Private Eye magazine Satanic Panic section.
She isn't happy about the exposure
adding in case the editor gets worried about me naming a notorious false memory therapist. Hopefully the exposure in the Eye is good enough, she has also been exposed in the Observer, the Independent and various other media
She isn't happy about the exposure
adding in case the editor gets worried about me naming a notorious false memory therapist. Hopefully the exposure in the Eye is good enough, she has also been exposed in the Observer, the Independent and various other media
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
He confirmed it happened with Fergie, he denies every meeting Virginia Giufree, née Roberts.
And if a man as honourable as Andrew says so, who are we to question his word?
Interesting though this is, not being glib. Here the raising of false memories by Andrew's defence team, with respect to Giuffre is transparrently synicle and desperate. Not worth giving any serious discussion.
Andrew's memory seems pretty faulty, based on the evidence so far. I'm sure that will come up in court though...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I come not to praise Andrew but to bury him
justin credible
Active Member
It may indeed be cynical. I have bitter personal experience of being accused of having false memories of sexual abuse by a family member who I can prove sexually abused me. Perpetrators will try to use false memories as a defence obviously. Also perpetrators can have false memories just as any other person can. I believe that my elderly relative, who has an age related cognitive disability, genuinely believes that he never abused me.
I would be fascinated to know more about Giuffre's psychologist, I dug around a bit and found her but all of her public profiles contain no information about her training, qualifications etc. which is interesting in itself.
These issues are immensely complex simply because people who have genuinely been sexually abused can end up in therapy with a quack (as happend to me). So even if Giuffre's psychologist is a quack (and there are plenty of them in Australia) it does not mean that she was not abused.
I hope that makes sense. Given the plethora of quacks out there and the huge numbers of innocent people who end up falsely accused, and sometimes convicted, on the basis of false memory therapy I think it is important to try to keep a rational / skeptical perspective whoever it is who is accused.
I also believe that traumatised people who have endured abuse deserve proper quality care and support and unfortunately is is not available, at least not in my experience.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Sorry to read about your experiences.
It's worth everyone bearing in mind that False Memory Syndrome is a complex issue which we should probably refrain from making generalised and possibly over simplified comments about.
In the context of this thread, however, it appears to me that the suggestion from Andrew's lawyers that Virginia Giuffre's accusations can be explained away by FMS is just one more attempt to muddy the waters by smearing his victim.
I don't think it's helpful or necessary to delve too much into the complex subject of FMS here.
justin credible
Active Member
I don't think it is helpful to refer to "False Memory Syndrome", largely due to the "syndrome" element which suggests that it is a condition or mental illness rather than an iatrogenic sequeale of psychotherapeutic abuse and, to a lesser extent, a naturally occuring phemomena that happens to all of us on a daily basis.
I was not aware that I have oversimplified anything. I have studied the academic literature around false memories for decades. I have a professional qualification in mental health and have many years of personal experiences of these issues. I have provided a link to a very good documentary exploring memory science in case anyone is interested.
As for smearing his victim, as you must be aware Epstein ran a sex trafficking pyramid scheme in which many women acted as both victims and perpetrators. It was very similar as to what happened in the NXIVM cult. This is an immensely complex situation in which any allegation by anyone, especailly if that person recruited others to the network (as Giuffre did), need to be examined in a skeptical and rational manner.
I am not attempting to smear anyone, simply to highlight some of the issues.
For me, as someone who has been profoundly harmed by false memory therapy, this case provides an opportunity to explore those issues. When I have tried to have rational discussions about the science of memory I have been gaslighted on many occasions by others claiming that I am "smearing victims".
If you genuinely believe that anyone who makes an allegation of anything, including non-recent sexual abuse, should always be believed and that criminal trials are not neccessary then you could argue that I am "smearing victims".
I do not believe that we should always believe people make accusations against others. I do believe that people alleging recent or non-recent sexual crimes should be treated fairly and sensitively and not be either believed or disblieved. I will always, always support due process regardless of who is accusing and who is accused.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i suppose you believe that all allegations of such incidents should be investigated, which normally precedes the due process element
justin credible
Active Member
of course I do. and if there is sufficient evidence tried in a court of law
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
oh dear. i thought you might believe that things should be investigated before they reached a court of law.
justin credible
Active Member
edited immediately I posted but was not quick enough oh well - running late and posting in haste that'll teach me
andysays
Love and solidarity
OK, I'm happy to agree that referring to FMS may not be the best term to use and apologise for my use of it.
And, because my previous post obviously wasn't clear, I wasn't suggesting that you yourself were over-simplifying. If that was directed at anyone, it was referring to others who have made what appear to me to simplistic comments before the one from you that I actually quoted.
Nor was I suggesting that you were smearing anyone - that point was aimed firmly at Andrew and his lawyers.
My overall point was to suggest (to everyone, not just to you) that the complex issue of false memories isn't one which we should allow this thread to get diverted on to, as it is simply yet another diversionary tactic employed by Andrew and his lawyers.
But in saying that, I also don't want to dismiss your experiences, though I suggest that there might be a better thread than this to discuss them on.
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andysays
Love and solidarity
I think you should cut this poster a bit of slack on this subject.
It's obviously something they have some personal experience of, and I don't think it's helpful to pick holes in what they're saying in the way you sometimes have a tendency to do.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i have cut them some slack. i was asking about what was to me an obvious missing element from their post, namely that allegations they should be investigated. that's been sorted.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Sorry that this happened to you justin credible I hope you managed to find a decent therapist who wasn't a quack to help you.
nogojones
spelling is overrated
Booo. I say we burn him!
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
That could all happen and should but he will have a veritable fuckton of legal folk pouring through the law books looking for ways to get him off, because he can afford it. So yeah he can have his day in court but don't say that as if HIS DAY IN COURT will force him onto a level playing field with his accusers, it fucking won't.
1927
Funnier than he thinks he is.
Andy's weird teddy bear obsession!!
Family, Parenting, Pet and Lifestyle Tips That Bring Us Closer Together | LittleThings.com
Family, Parenting, Pet and Lifestyle Tips That Bring Us Closer Together | LittleThings.com
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