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Prevent: How far has surveillance of muslim communities gone?

The39thStep said:
If you think Islamists are only waging a war against Western imperialism rather than against anyone who isn't a believer then you really need to do a bit more reading or talk to more people. They have killed more Muslims than the west .
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Historically inaccurate.

But continue.
 
The39thStep said:
Do you really think that structural disadvantage and alienation explains radicalisation? If that was the case why haven't the left and anarchists recruited ? Ironically the Islamacists record on women, LGBT and disability is far worse than the our states.
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A) this is wot u lot always do, you try to see alienation and disadvantage as the prime mover of radicalisation rather than arising out of it. There's a clear difference. People don't have to use anarchist or marxist lingo to feel marginalised.

So basically in the political sphere all this amounts to is lining up with those with the most capital and talking about superficially integrating people. Of course alienation is just used in the sense that bourgeois sociology uses it, rather than getting at the heart of wage labour and capitalist social relations...

B) Why do the left and anarchists need to recruit?

Class struggle is an every day reality. just cos you don't want to think of it in these terms doesn't make it any less real. and i don't see myself as part of the left and don't belong to an anarchist organisation.

C) what is that last sentence supposed to mean? My whole point was to support neither islamists nor the british state and government supported NGOs. Or did repeating myself not drill that into your head? are you trying to slander me, you cunt?

Where have i expressed support for the islamists?
 
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The39thStep said:
If you think Islamists are only waging a war against Western imperialism rather than against anyone who isn't a believer then you really need to do a bit more reading or talk to more people. They have killed more Muslims than the west .
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Have they? Historically it seems unlikely, given the direct and indirect role played by British, French, and American imperialists and neo-imperialist and their respective puppets over the past century and a half. Anyway British imperial ventures have certainly claimed the lives of more British citizens than your islamist bogey folk.

However, that was irrelevant to my point which was that about the degree to which we ourselves are brainwashed by the prevailing culture.
 
tim said:
Have they? Historically it seems unlikely, given the direct and indirect role played by British, French, and American imperialists and neo-imperialist and their respective puppets over the past century and a half. Anyway British imperial ventures have certainly claimed the lives of more British citizens than your islamist bogey folk.

However, that was irrelevant to my point which was that about the degree to which we ourselves are brainwashed by the prevailing culture.
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Isn't the discussion about anti radicalisation? If so then my point was made in that context rather than going back to the Crusades or something. I gather from your post that the Islamist threat, despite the bombings in India, Iraq, the mass executions , slavery and rape in Syria ,the terror attacks in Germany,France and Belgium and the foiled attacks in the UK, can de dismissed as 'bogey folk' ?
 
dialectician said:
A) this is wot u lot always do, you try to see alienation and disadvantage as the prime mover of radicalisation rather than arising out of it. There's a clear difference. People don't have to use anarchist or marxist lingo to feel marginalised.

So basically in the political sphere all this amounts to is lining up with those with the most capital and talking about superficially integrating people. Of course alienation is just used in the sense that bourgeois sociology uses it, rather than getting at the heart of wage labour and capitalist social relations...

B) Why do the left and anarchists need to recruit?

Class struggle is an every day reality. just cos you don't want to think of it in these terms doesn't make it any less real. and i don't see myself as part of the left and don't belong to an anarchist organisation.

C) what is that last sentence supposed to mean? My whole point was to support neither islamists nor the british state and government supported NGOs. Or did repeating myself not drill that into your head? are you trying to slander me, you cunt?

Where have i expressed support for the islamists?
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Been on the medication or suffer from Tourettes ?
 
The39thStep said:
I think there is a need for some form of anti radicalisation strategy or strategies that tackle both the far white right and the far right Islamists. In the absence of a community or voluntary sector based response ( there are some fledgling services ie FATE) then the state will run them.
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But not the far left?
 
ddraig said:
how many of the far left have built explosive devices in the last 10 years?
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That isn't the point. PREVENT is designed to counter particular narratives that are apparently deemed (by 'the State') to be extremist. That suggests there is a 'right' way to think, feel, act and believe. The introduction of the material in respect of the far right wing was explicitly introduced only to counter potential accusations of racism and obtain some traction among opponents of the strategy.
 
Beats & Pieces said:
That isn't the point. PREVENT is designed to counter particular narratives that are apparently deemed (by 'the State') to be extremist. That suggests there is a 'right' way to think, feel, act and believe. The introduction of the material in respect of the far right wing was explicitly introduced only to counter potential accusations of racism and obtain some traction among opponents of the strategy.
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So true. When you read the HO docs on Prevent and the wider strategy documents you can almost hear some voice in the edit process saying 'FFS we are going to be accused of targeting a specific group - chuck in some animal libs, a few far righters and a couple of really, nice, sweet muslims who just want to make the world a better place but also read the Koran'. I have been writing a paper on Prevent for our website for about six months - every time I get near the end another item of idiocy crops up and I have to re edit.
 
catinthehat said:
So true. When you read the HO docs on Prevent and the wider strategy documents you can almost hear some voice in the edit process saying 'FFS we are going to be accused of targeting a specific group - chuck in some animal libs, a few far righters and a couple of really, nice, sweet muslims who just want to make the world a better place but also read the Koran'. I have been writing a paper on Prevent for our website for about six months - every time I get near the end another item of idiocy crops up and I have to re edit.
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You might love my PhD.
 
The39thStep said:
Isn't the discussion about anti radicalisation? If so then my point was made in that context rather than going back to the Crusades or something. I gather from your post that the Islamist threat, despite the bombings in India, Iraq, the mass executions , slavery and rape in Syria ,the terror attacks in Germany,France and Belgium and the foiled attacks in the UK, can de dismissed as 'bogey folk' ?
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My point is that within a British context , which is the context in which "Prevent" is designed to operate the British state and establishment, the promoters of "Prevent", are far more effective at this "Radicalisation" stuff: normalising and justifying warfare, recruiting fighters, arming foreign collaborators than wannabe jihadi recruiters.

As to the historical context my references were to recent history and its current relevance, not to the Crusades.

As to the historical context
 
MCB are ultra conservative twats that peddle nonsense that would make ukip blush, I've read their literature it contains vile homophobic hate speech. A freind of mine id a relative of one if the founders and has severe mental health problems due in part to the culture they wish to establish as the normal British muslim behaviour, it's like asking the BNP to control violent skinheads, fucking daft.
 
yeah well maybe if we weren't constantly made to feel like we're the playthings of others that would probably change. Apologies for ruining the thread. :(
 
dialectician said:
yeah well maybe if we weren't constantly made to feel like we're the playthings of others that would probably change. Apologies for ruining the thread. :(
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You haven't ruined the thread. Its about us we should be able to have a say without getting slated for taking things too personally. Because it is personal, yeah.
 
Thimble Queen said:
You haven't ruined the thread. Its about us we should be able to have a say without getting slated for taking things too personally. Because it is personal, yeah.
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Nobody has been 'personally' slated. (Of course, you can choose to take more or less anything personally. After all, it is the contemporary ethos.)
 
I didn't expect tears from an 'hardline Marxist.' Maybe this is an occasion for a 'lol.' (I've never actually typed 'lol' before. It just shows how old-fasihoned I might be...)
 
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