The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
drawn into rather than caught up in. ie attracted to
Prevent: How far has surveillance of muslim communities gone?
- Thread starter Brainaddict
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh. but it doesn't safeguard those "drawn into" daesh and it doesn't safeguard those "caught up in" daesh either.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
attracted to then
Thimble Queen
Called away to another place
The39thStep now that you are back online are you going to answer my questions?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
As I said before they are supportive of schemes that offer support to parents whose children are at risk of radicalisation.The local mosque and its youth groups have provided mentors to those who have agreed to go onto Prevent. I haven't heard any of them say that Prevent is about proving they are the right kind of Muslim but I am interested to hear your argument that that is what Prevent is all about.
In terms of accepting money they still do . Despite the Guardian and the Islamist lobby 0ver 300 mosques, over three hundred community organisations and 150 faith groups did in the last year.
Are you in favour of support to families who children are at risk of radicalisation? And what are these right kind of muslims that you mention?
If you offer money to communities on the basis of a construct ('radicalisation') do you really think that they might not be tempted to accept, if only to ameliorate against wider social issues and problems? It is important to remember that PREVENT originated out of a 'communities together' approach. Moreover, what are other communities to think when they see money being pushed in to depressingly similar 'solutions' to this problem (a boxing club anyone?) on the basis of an implied threat - it creates resentment and fractures possible cohesiveness - within and outside the Muslim communities being targeted.
Thimble Queen
Called away to another place
Nope. You haven't answered my questions.
Again: What does condeming choudary et al have to do with what they think of prevent as an anti radicalisation strategy? Why do you think that's relevant to their views on prevent?
What does not having prayers in English have to do with radicalisation? Why is that relevant?
I also clarified my question to ask you if any of them have concerns about the way prevent is applied and cases where kids and parents are threatened and hauled over the coals for ridiculous things such as drawing pictures of cucumbers. Do you have any concerns about this?
My reference to 'the right kind if muslims' was sarcasm. But actually it is a real thing... there is a pressure for people like me to appear to be the 'right kind of muslim'. This means that you feel pressured to make statements to dissociate yourself from terror attacks in the west by saying how sorry you are etc, to condemn hardliners such as choudary, to not criticise British institutions or the monarchy (at best you might get told to fuck off back home if you dont like it) to not appear too muslim in your dress, to 'fit in' in myriad ways. I can't believe I need to explain this tbh.
I haven't said that Prevent is about proving you are the right type of muslim. I said that your commentry about your friends denouncing choudary and the other points you made seemed to me to be more about proving to be the right type of muslim and less about what they think about Prevent as a strategy.
Yes of course I'm in favour of supporting families who's children are vulnerable to exploitation. Clearly though I have questions about the way this particular strategy is applied and the way that it highlights behaviour from people like me as problematic. I doubt a white kid drawing a picture of a cucumber would rouse the same suspicion that muslim kid did.
Again: What does condeming choudary et al have to do with what they think of prevent as an anti radicalisation strategy? Why do you think that's relevant to their views on prevent?
What does not having prayers in English have to do with radicalisation? Why is that relevant?
I also clarified my question to ask you if any of them have concerns about the way prevent is applied and cases where kids and parents are threatened and hauled over the coals for ridiculous things such as drawing pictures of cucumbers. Do you have any concerns about this?
My reference to 'the right kind if muslims' was sarcasm. But actually it is a real thing... there is a pressure for people like me to appear to be the 'right kind of muslim'. This means that you feel pressured to make statements to dissociate yourself from terror attacks in the west by saying how sorry you are etc, to condemn hardliners such as choudary, to not criticise British institutions or the monarchy (at best you might get told to fuck off back home if you dont like it) to not appear too muslim in your dress, to 'fit in' in myriad ways. I can't believe I need to explain this tbh.
I haven't said that Prevent is about proving you are the right type of muslim. I said that your commentry about your friends denouncing choudary and the other points you made seemed to me to be more about proving to be the right type of muslim and less about what they think about Prevent as a strategy.
Yes of course I'm in favour of supporting families who's children are vulnerable to exploitation. Clearly though I have questions about the way this particular strategy is applied and the way that it highlights behaviour from people like me as problematic. I doubt a white kid drawing a picture of a cucumber would rouse the same suspicion that muslim kid did.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
dialectician i did a painting of the crucifixion of Christ surrounded by nazi storm troopers rabbis and priests for my GCSE art coursework that almost got me suspended, I wouldn't overthink it. I hung it on my wall for a couple years
Oh, i laugh about it now, but growing up in a household with an abuser - it didn't feel funny at the time, I was shit scared.
Thimble Queen
Called away to another place
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I think that's a good point. There was so much money around when Prevent first started it was hard to get rid of in some areas. Its focus is much narrower now. The caseload profiles have changed as well.
Thimble Queen i was a member of the animal liberation front and involved with class war so yeah there were clues
I don't believe that the caseloads have changed, but would be interested in knowing more. PREVENT has, arguably, subjected particular communities to a degree of unprecedented scrutiny - enabled by the use of technology and the use of the 'fear' narrative.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
That's been kind of the problem with the government's idea of multi-culturalism from the start - divide and rule through manipulation of funding and influence. Once upon a time many BaME people in the UK united under the political label "black", and got more done, so "divide and rule" became the order of the day for first the Tories, and then "new" Labour.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The number of far right referrals has declined. How does Prevent use technology btw ?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
What sort of scheme would you replace Prevent with ?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Go on then, argue it
Thimble Queen
Called away to another place
Are you going to answer my questions or engage with any of the posts I've taken the time to write?
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Chalk up another Victory for identity politics.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
You might be mistaking the thread for a PACE interview rather than a discussion. dialectition suggested I talk to Muslims, I repeated what some of the comments were.
Is Prevent based on a threat from Islamacists and radicalisation of course it is .There are programmes in France, Belgium, Holland and elsewhere in Europe. There are programmes in the States .
My point is that there is a need for some form of anti radicalisation programme here. If it isn't Prevent than what is it or what would it be?
What do you think?
Not having exhausted myself going though this thread:
If Prevent is unworkable or unacceptable, what is (or could contribute to) an acceptable, workable solution to the problem of Islamisation in particular, and radicalization to violent aspects of any particular ideology in general?
Thimble Queen
Called away to another place
No. It was me that asked you what your self proclaimed muslims friends thought about prevent and you started jabbering on about what they thought about choudary, which is pretty off tbh. If my questions are too difficult for you to answer fine but don't expect me to answer any more of yours in that case.
The information available would suggest that the numbers of 'far right' referrals was never going to be that high, and was about seeking to mitigate against possible accusations of racism. It is also worth noting that PREVENT, at least initially, was not going to be a public exercise. PREVENT developed in line with other activities that were designed to increase the information available to particular sections of the state apparatus - justified on the basis of being used to differentiate between 'good' and 'bad' individuals. I'm tempted here to think of Bio-power, or rather Info-power, as an apparatus to explore the mechanics at play.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
'Self proclaimed Muslim friends' get over yourself for gods sake
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The pressure over the far right actually came from lobbying from Councils , Muslim associations and other bodies, you are absolutely right it was about 'balance' . However so much was the enthusiasm that in some areas far right white referrals were the majority. It also coincided with the arrest and conviction of a number of far right activists for firearms and explosives. There were other funds around at the time for community cohesion which were used to undermine the BNP.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
It's not that it is unworkable far from it but it is unacceptable for the Islamacists , the liberal left and now the Liberal Democrats . It's about taking head on the arguments of the Islamacists and to some extent the conservative reactionary ideas of other groups . The Guardian is full of them lol. There was an interesting post recently by Southall Black Sisters on their frustration with a BBC interview where prominence was given to two women defending Sharia Courts and law.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
Don't see how southall black sisters opposing sharia law and sharia courts is endorsing prevent tbh.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Neither do I. But then nobody suggested it did.
catinthehat
Failed VK = Replicant
The early Prevent channeled cash into community projects as mentioned above - camping, sports that kind of stuff but the government review found that to be problematic as it was often given to groups who failed to account for money spent etc. That strategy was dumped in favor of beefing up public services based monitoring and response activities. Along with some cash to look at 'prislam'. The cynic might argue that what Prevent does do is open up a platform, lines and strategy which deals with some of the issues they ran into before in terms of information flow - for example lecturers who refused to hand over student work or records. Along with its other functions it has set in place a system whereby individuals can be by passed using the magic word PREVENT. Although the legislation provides for teams that deal with referrals and can be chaired by a range of public servants it is almost always the Police that chair. And as far as I know there are scant details about how the 'reeducation' is formatted. Once you have the structure in place it can be used for a range of different people - if there is any significant reaction to welfare cuts, possible meltdown in the future etc. I always recall one of my politics lecturers saying 'imagine if Hitler had a data base'. (Goodwin Award rejected).
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
No but 39th's post was still about anti-radicalisation right?
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