Prevent: How far has surveillance of muslim communities gone?

[durruti02]

I would expect our government to do something mmoronic and couonter-productive, like spying on muslims who have absolutely no connection to terrorism or extremism, thereby making them even more fucked off with the government, and tending more towards 'extremism'.

And I'd expect anyone concerned with defending working-class people to point out the governments stupidity.

you see that is why you are a liberal BB ... i would NOT expect the state to do anything but be repressive and operate mass surveillance ..

 

[belboid]

that's just what i said you daft sod

 

[tbaldwin]

I would expect our government to do something mmoronic and couonter-productive, like spying on muslims who have absolutely no connection to terrorism or extremism, thereby making them even more fucked off with the government, and tending more towards 'extremism'.

And I'd expect anyone concerned with defending working-class people to point out the governments stupidity.

Infantile post.

Do you really imagine that it is super easy for the govt to sort out exactly who the terrorists are? Of course there going to target people based on racial and religious profiling. And yeah there is always the risk that some people will object.....But the risk in not doing it outweighs the risk in doing it.
I would like to know what you would suggest?

I would expect anyone interested in defending working class people to acknowledge that all of us Black White or Asian, Religious or non Religious want to see potential terrorists stopped.

 

[belboid]

if you're going to throw around words like 'infantile', i'd make sure your post was a bit more thought through than that.

you all but admit that the surveillance will create more extremists, and maybe you think that the british security services are competent enough to find the 'right people', out of that expanded number, but I'm not so convinved myself.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

link?

Civil Contingencies Bill 2004

http://www.warmwell.com/civilcontigbill.html

 

[frogwoman]

Actually, fucking hell, I think I finally give up on the politics forum. People here are obssessed with the doings of tiny groups of people to the far left and far right of the political spectrum but the routine surveillance of 2 million largely innocent citizens by the state is barely worth discussing it seems.

you've got a point. i've got increasingly fucked off with urban75 and the politics forum for these reasons ...

it aint what it used to be sadly x stay well dude.

 

[Pickman's model]

Actually, fucking hell, I think I finally give up on the politics forum. People here are obssessed with the doings of tiny groups of people to the far left and far right of the political spectrum but the routine surveillance of 2 million largely innocent citizens by the state is barely worth discussing it seems.

the routine surveillance of 60 million 'largely innocent' people seems to pass you and most other people here by.

 

[redsquirrel]

There is an interesting question as to what an alternative counter terrorism strategy would look like.

Well I guess we'll see one alternative

Muslim Council of Britain to set up alternative counter-terror scheme

The plans are being masterminded by the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), representing 500 charities, schools and mosques, which plans to start the Muslim-run counter-radicalisation scheme next year.

For all the problems with Prevent I'm sceptical that the MCBs alternative will be any better.

(I know i'm resurrecting an old thread but it looked to be the most suitable)

 

[The39thStep]

Well I guess we'll see one alternative

Muslim Council of Britain to set up alternative counter-terror scheme

For all the problems with Prevent I'm sceptical that the MCBs alternative will be any better.

(I know i'm resurrecting an old thread but it looked to be the most suitable)

What are the problems with Prevent in your opinion? How could it be improved?

 

[ManchesterBeth]

What are the problems with Prevent in your opinion? How could it be improved?

More to the point, why would you want to improve it?

 

[Celyn]

Is this Muslim Council of Britain the same lot of blokes who wished death upon Salman Rushdie? Are women equally represented in this grandly titled "Muslim Council of Britain"? How are its members elected?

What is this Council's view about Ahmadiyya Muslims?

And this IS important, because it is really not at all long since the religiously motivated murder of Asad Shah in Glasgow earlier this year.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Is this Muslim Council of Britain the same lot of blokes who wished death upon Salman Rushdie? Are women equally represented in this grandly titled "Muslim Council of Britain"? How are its members elected?

What is this Council's view about Ahmadiyya Muslims?

And this IS important, because it is really not at all long since the religiously motivated murder of Asad Shah in Glasgow earlier this year.

'Sir', Sir! Iqbal Sacranie.

Their view on ahmadiyya is just standard compliant interfaith bollocks.

They rarely ever crop up in conversation, they're just a joke.

 

[Raheem]

Is this Muslim Council of Britain the same lot of blokes who wished death upon Salman Rushdie?

I don't think it has been going that long.

 

[Pickman's model]

Is this Muslim Council of Britain the same lot of blokes who wished death upon Salman Rushdie? Are women equally represented in this grandly titled "Muslim Council of Britain"? How are its members elected?

What is this Council's view about Ahmadiyya Muslims?

And this IS important, because it is really not at all long since the religiously motivated murder of Asad Shah in Glasgow earlier this year.

sacranie is of course iqbal sacranie, founding secretary-general of the muslim council of britain (founded 1997)
Iqbal Sacranie - Wikipedia

 

[Pickman's model]

What are the problems with Prevent in your opinion? How could it be improved?

by being abolished

next

 

[SqueakyBumTime]

next

 

[SqueakyBumTime]

...

 

[tim]

What are the problems with Prevent in your opinion? How could it be improved?

I discovered from my prevent training that as a 52 year old Quaker I still managed to tick enough boxes to make me a potential threat to society, which was more han could be said for some of my duller students. I felt quite pleased about that, but refrained from denouncing myself to the authorities

 

[Beats & Pieces]

PREVENT was, and is, deeply flawed. It will never work, never be accepted by key communities for whom it was specifically designed. More interestingly, it was never fully accepted as legitimate by key institutions charged with the implementation of the policy.

 

[likesfish]

Problem with Prevent Or any stratergy like that.

Might be perfectly fine idea when cooked up by spooks and special branch and experts of islamic fundamentalism etc.

But the front line isnt going to be Sebastian who has a phd in islamic history and knows more about the Koran and al quaida and palestine its going to be some Teacher or similar who didnt sign up for this shit and doesnt get the rolls royce brief rather some 3rd hand powerpoint presentation by some capita hired minion and threats of dire consquences if they dont report the mearest threat or appeance of threat.

Plus of course most people are going to see this as an excuse for ham fisted racism. But of course any of the Real Targets are going to Scream Racism etc.
Much like the Jihadists of cage scream out against Prevent because it is aimed at them​

 

[The39thStep]

More to the point, why would you want to improve it?

I think there is a need for some form of anti radicalisation strategy or strategies that tackle both the far white right and the far right Islamists. In the absence of a community or voluntary sector based response ( there are some fledgling services ie FATE) then the state will run them.

 

[The39thStep]

Problem with Prevent Or any stratergy like that.

Might be perfectly fine idea when cooked up by spooks and special branch and experts of islamic fundamentalism etc.

But the front line isnt going to be Sebastian who has a phd in islamic history and knows more about the Koran and al quaida and palestine its going to be some Teacher or similar who didnt sign up for this shit and doesnt get the rolls royce brief rather some 3rd hand powerpoint presentation by some capita hired minion and threats of dire consquences if they dont report the mearest threat or appeance of threat.

Plus of course most people are going to see this as an excuse for ham fisted racism. But of course any of the Real Targets are going to Scream Racism etc.
Much like the Jihadists of cage scream out against Prevent because it is aimed at them​

The role of the teacher in the current Prevent set up is pretty similar to the role of the teacher in any preventative scheme ie its safeguarding . The intensive work , which is voluntary is carried out by trained staff .in some cases by ex extremists .

 

[ManchesterBeth]

I think there is a need for some form of anti radicalisation strategy or strategies that tackle both the far white right and the far right Islamists. In the absence of a community or voluntary sector based response ( there are some fledgling services ie FATE) then the state will run them.

Who is being anti-radicalised?

And how would prevent be separated from the state?

You don't reduce the impact of radicalism by stressing islamic particularity. this is how this shit started out to begin with.

Defer to the elders, nach! only, would be funny if the elders cared about prevent though.

(using elders figuratively, I.E: atomised ethnic enclaves w community elders...)

 

[The39thStep]

Who is being anti-radicalised?

And how would prevent be separated from the state?

You don't reduce the impact of radicalism by stressing islamic particularity. this is how this shit started out to begin with.

Defer to the elders, nach! only, would be funny if the elders cared about prevent though.

(using elders figuratively, I.E: atomised ethnic enclaves w community elders...)

So no need for any intervention then ?

 

[redsquirrel]

What are the problems with Prevent in your opinion? How could it be improved?

Sorry for not replying sooner. I think some of the fears of demonisation are valid, but even if they are wrong/overplayed the fact that many in the Muslim community believe Prevent is targeting them is a problem.

Like you I'd rather see a community based response, as such I don't have a problem with the MCB developing it's own program just that I'm suspicious the type of program they will develop. (There's also the issue that it feeds into the increasing role religious groups are having in society/politics).

 

[ManchesterBeth]

So no need for any intervention then ?

Again, who is being anti-radicalised.

Some kid that said some dodgy shit in school or posted some dumb crap on the internet?

Furthermore what does prevent or the MCB have to say about the structural disadvantages and alienation that young muslims face? Nothing of any substance i guess.

But continue to believe that the state and NGOs should involve religion in the public sphere and continue its job of identity segmentation.

Of course the fact that women, LGBT, disabled muslims are brutally silenced is never taken into account.

You want to get rid of the islamic far right? Then don't line up with the state!

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Sorry for not replying sooner. I think some of the fears of demonisation are valid, but even if they are wrong/overplayed the fact that many in the Muslim community believe Prevent is targeting them is a problem.

Like you I'd rather see a community based response, as such I don't have a problem with the MCB developing it's own program just that I'm suspicious the type of program they will develop. (There's also the issue that it feeds into the increasing role religious groups are having in society/politics).

Ofc you don't have a problem. you're not the one struggling against islamic conservatism.

 

[tim]

I think there is a need for some form of anti radicalisation strategy or strategies that tackle both the far white right and the far right Islamists. In the absence of a community or voluntary sector based response ( there are some fledgling services ie FATE) then the state will run them.

The British state that still feels that it has a right to wage war wherever in the world it wants to. As to radicalisation what about trying to counter the upcoming sentimentalised poppy death-fest with its focus on our noble matyrs and the overt encouragement for children to sign up and march off slaughter and be slaughtered.


Here are some British child soldiers

and for balance

 

[The39thStep]

The British state that still feels that it has a right to wage war wherever in the world it wants to. As to radicalisation what about trying to counter the upcoming sentimentalised poppy death-fest with its focus on our noble matyrs and the overt encouragement for children to sign up and march off slaughter and be slaughtered.


Here are some British child soldiers

and for balance

If you think Islamists are only waging a war against Western imperialism rather than against anyone who isn't a believer then you really need to do a bit more reading or talk to more people. They have killed more Muslims than the west .

 

[The39thStep]

Again, who is being anti-radicalised.

Some kid that said some dodgy shit in school or posted some dumb crap on the internet?

Furthermore what does prevent or the MCB have to say about the structural disadvantages and alienation that young muslims face? Nothing of any substance i guess.

But continue to believe that the state and NGOs should involve religion in the public sphere and continue its job of identity segmentation.

Of course the fact that women, LGBT, disabled muslims are brutally silenced is never taken into account.

You want to get rid of the islamic far right? Then don't line up with the state!

Do you really think that structural disadvantage and alienation explains radicalisation? If that was the case why haven't the left and anarchists recruited ? Ironically the Islamacists record on women, LGBT and disability is far worse than the our states.