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(Prepare for) A Mighty Upsurge

SpineyNorman said:
Yeah, I'll accept criticisms, even crap ones, but anyone who starts on Mary makes an enemy of me - one of the nicest, most effective and most committed socialists you could ever meet.
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Agreed - but that quote at the start was not helpful.
 
SpackleFrog said:
Why do you think we were successful in Coventry and the US then?
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Coventry (and Dublin, Lewisham etc) is or was down to what Nigel Irritable said hard work talking to people, building roots, and putting forward a platform that generally seems to match some of people's real aspirations.

In Seattle - I don't think the vote did come from nowhere - but clearly it was a massive victory that wasn't entirely down to local organising but that did play a key role among other things but what there is no evidence of is it being part of a more generalised shift towards a more combatative working class.

I appreciate that many people in the CWI like Nigel and Spiney understand what works and I do think the SP is currently the only far-left organisation with any potential at all - but there are no short cuts to building a political movement, there are no alternatives to slow and patient building of rooted effective local organisation in communities and workplaces. And I would suggest that recent British political history bares that out - from Militant in Liverpool to the IWCA to Nellist to Bob Crow and the RMT.

Even the recent history of the Labour party over the last 30 years shows...
Yes sometimes things speed up and you can build a mass movement relatively quickly but it needs a spark such as the poll tax something that is widely and deeply felt by a critical mass of people - and even then I suspect that if something like that flared up now given the relative weakness of those currents that provided influence to the poll tax movement they would not be in the same place to take advantage.
 
Spanky Longhorn said:
Coventry (and Dublin, Lewisham etc) is or was down to what Nigel Irritable said hard work talking to people, building roots, and putting forward a platform that generally seems to match some of people's real aspirations.

In Seattle - I don't think the vote did come from nowhere - but clearly it was a massive victory that wasn't entirely down to local organising but that did play a key role among other things but what there is no evidence of is it being part of a more generalised shift towards a more combatative working class.

I appreciate that many people in the CWI like Nigel and Spiney understand what works and I do think the SP is currently the only far-left organisation with any potential at all - but there are no short cuts to building a political movement, there are no alternatives to slow and patient building of rooted effective local organisation in communities and workplaces. And I would suggest that recent British political history bares that out - from Militant in Liverpool to the IWCA to Nellist to Bob Crow and the RMT.

Even the recent history of the Labour party over the last 30 years shows...
Yes sometimes things speed up and you can build a mass movement relatively quickly but it needs a spark such as the poll tax something that is widely and deeply felt by a critical mass of people - and even then I suspect that if something like that flared up now given the relative weakness of those currents that provided influence to the poll tax movement they would not be in the same place to take advantage.
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I wouldn't disagree with any of that. I don't think many people in the SP would either.
 
An upturn in class struggle more generally. I promise you nobody in the party is predicting a mighty upsurge in TUSC results. I'd say the most optimistic of us think we might win a couple of council seats in May and get a few respectable 2nd and 3rd places - if we're really lucky and we do all the hard work. I'm thinking by the time the elections are over we'll be going through big lists and picking out 10% and 20% results from a sea of 1-3% mediocrity.

As for No2EU, we just wish that wasn't happening again to be honest.
 
Spanky Longhorn said:
Coventry (and Dublin, Lewisham etc) is or was down to what Nigel Irritable said hard work talking to people, building roots, and putting forward a platform that generally seems to match some of people's real aspirations.

In Seattle - I don't think the vote did come from nowhere - but clearly it was a massive victory that wasn't entirely down to local organising but that did play a key role among other things but what there is no evidence of is it being part of a more generalised shift towards a more combatative working class.

I appreciate that many people in the CWI like Nigel and Spiney understand what works and I do think the SP is currently the only far-left organisation with any potential at all - but there are no short cuts to building a political movement, there are no alternatives to slow and patient building of rooted effective local organisation in communities and workplaces. And I would suggest that recent British political history bares that out - from Militant in Liverpool to the IWCA to Nellist to Bob Crow and the RMT.

Even the recent history of the Labour party over the last 30 years shows...
Yes sometimes things speed up and you can build a mass movement relatively quickly but it needs a spark such as the poll tax something that is widely and deeply felt by a critical mass of people - and even then I suspect that if something like that flared up now given the relative weakness of those currents that provided influence to the poll tax movement they would not be in the same place to take advantage.
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I should point out that while I know what the strategic thinking of the Irish SP is, and I was very familiar with the strategic thinking of the English SP ten (10!) years ago, I haven't been involved in the English party's discussions in that time. So, while I read their publications and still have friends there, the finer detail of their views may escape me sometimes.

For instance I'm not sure how much they've theorised the limits of the "prolonged intense local work" strategy. My comments on that are my own - but my own based on being in the SP in Dublin, being briefly in the SSP in Glasgow and helping out in a couple of elections in Lewisham. It's pretty clear that it can get you to a certain point in a particular area. Both the SP and on a smaller but still notable scale the IWCA have shown it repeatedly. But it's equally clear that it can only get so you far in the absence of some game changing external factor. On its own it represents a massive investment of limited resources, for something very local, difficult to maintain over a long period and crucially, nobody has yet come up with a way to spread the effect outside of the initial area.

I think that you are very much trying to shoehorn the Seattle result too much into that mold, but it just doesn't fit. Socialist Alternative in Seattle simply was not big enough to have carried out significant "localist" efforts across the city. They had a certain local visibility, they had solid links with community and union activists, but they simply did not spend years painstakingly doing the sort of street by street work that local successes in Lewisham etc came out of. They had nothing like the kind of resources you would need for that across a big city - and even though they apparently now have more membership applications than they can process, they still don't have. The Minneapolis near miss might on its own have appeared more like the English and Irish patterns, although I actually think that most of the similarities are misleading and the process was more like Seattle.

Now what did actually happen in Seattle is another question, and I'll get back to you about my understanding of the answer, but for now I'll just say that I'm not at all sure that many of the factors are transferable to England at the moment. I also rather doubt that the English SP think that it serves as a generalisable model in England, beyond as a reminder that things can shift quite suddenly and the very unlikely can become possible in the wake of such a shift.

When it comes to standing large numbers of no hoper TUSC candidates, it's my impression that rather than expecting a sudden mana from heaven swing to TUSC, that they primarily think of it as a way to gather together some activists in each locality who are opposed to Labour from the left and to test the water. They are often criticised for this as if they were wasting easily transferable resources, but they aren't really. They aren't going to get people in any numbers to travel two towns over to work regularly for the nearest better rooted candidate anyway. Standing paper or semi paper candidates isn't an inherently stupid thing to do, for all that when a left party does it it attracts the sneers of leftist cynics. Of course not being inherently stupid doesn't mean inherently wise either. I'm not really in a position to judge.
 
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Nigel Irritable said:
I should point out that while I know what the strategic thinking of the Irish SP is, and I was very familiar with the strategic thinking of the English SP ten (10!) years ago, I haven't been involved in the English party's discussions in that time. So, while I read their publications and still have friends there, the finer detail of their views may escape me sometimes.

For instance I'm not sure how much they've theorised the limits of the "prolonged intense local work" strategy. My comments on that are my own - but my own based on being in the SP in Dublin, being briefly in the SSP in Glasgow and helping out in a couple of elections in Lewisham. It's pretty clear that it can get you to a certain point in a particular area. Both the SP and on a smaller but still notable scale the IWCA have shown it repeatedly. But it's equally clear that it can only get so you far in the absence of some game changing external factor. On its own it represents a massive investment of limited resources, for something very local, difficult to maintain over a long period and crucially, nobody has yet come up with a way to spread the effect outside of the initial area.

I think that you are very much trying to shoehorn the Seattle result too much into that mold, but it just doesn't fit. Socialist Alternative in Seattle simply was not big enough to have carried out significant "localist" efforts across the city. They had a certain local visibility, they had solid links with community and union activists, but they simply did not spend years painstakingly doing the sort of street by street work that local successes in Lewisham etc came out of. They had nothing like the kind of resources you would need for that across a big city - and even though they apparently now have more membership applications than they can process, they still don't have. The Minneapolis near miss might on its own have appeared more like the English and Irish patterns, although I actually think that most of the similarities are misleading and the process was more like Seattle.

Now what did actually happen in Seattle is another question, and I'll get back to you about my understanding of the answer, but for now I'll just say that I'm not at all sure that many of the factors are transferable to England at the moment. I also rather doubt that the English SP think that it serves as a generalisable model in England, beyond as a reminder that things can shift quite suddenly and the very unlikely can become possible in the wake of such a shift.

When it comes to standing large numbers of no hoper TUSC candidates, it's my impression that rather than expecting a sudden mana from heaven swing to TUSC, that they primarily think of it as a way to gather together some activists in each locality who are opposed to Labour from the left and to test the water. They are often criticised for this as if they were wasting easily transferable resources, but they aren't really. They aren't going to get people in any numbers to travel two towns over to work regularly for the nearest better rooted candidate anyway. Standing paper or semi paper candidates isn't an inherently stupid thing to do, for all that when a left party does it it attracts the sneers of leftist cynics. Of course not being inherently stupid doesn't mean inherently wise either. I'm not really in a position to judge.
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Also, standing no-hoper candidates in Green party target wards in council elections really pisses them off and, while not meaning much in terms of political strategy, does give me at least a nice warm fuzzy glow of satisfaction.

I have no knowledge of the US Greens and on that basis oppose us allying ourselves with them in the US simply because they are called the Green Party.
 
is no2eu standing this may? if they are they've last minute.commed it again cos I've heard nothing nd seen nothing
 
The name is slightly better this time - it will appear on ballot papers as No2EU - Yes2Workers Rights: Exit with Socialist Policies or something equally pointless. Fucking pain in the arse as local and EU elections are on the same day. Sadly the RMT/CPB wouldn't countenance just, y'kno, standing as TUSC.
 
SpackleFrog said:
The name is slightly better this time - it will appear on ballot papers as No2EU - Yes2Workers Rights: Exit with Socialist Policies or something equally pointless. Fucking pain in the arse as local and EU elections are on the same day. Sadly the RMT/CPB wouldn't countenance just, y'kno, standing as TUSC.
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last time around I spent a good hour browbeating arguing convincingly to persuade someone tovote no2eu as it denies a vote share to kippers or their ilk.

that person then voted christian democrat anyway.

there was leaflets last time. Banners. Not seen any of that at all yet
 
DotCommunist said:
last time around I spent a good hour browbeating arguing convincingly to persuade someone tovote no2eu as it denies a vote share to kippers or their ilk.

that person then voted christian democrat anyway.

there was leaflets last time. Banners. Not seen any of that at all yet
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A lot of the leg work was done by the SP last time - this time that's not so likely to happen.
 
frogwoman said:
that fucking 24-hour general strike again
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Why would that be a bad thing? Is it just because it's only 24 hours?

frogwoman said:
hannah sell, yesterday

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I don't get it.

I joined the SP about a year ago. I don't really understand these criticisms. I'm not saying they mightn't justified; I don't get why they would be. I'm not staunchly pro-SP, but for me it felt a good move toward something positive. I don't live anywhere near a vibrant socially minded progressive community; I live in Toryshire and I grew up with Daily Mail readers.
 
I was a member of the sp until last year. I don't have a problem with a 24 hour strike either, but there's little attempt to bring that stuff out of appealing to the section of workers (mostly public sector) who are still in trade unions and the Sp's fetishisation of 'left leaning' tu leadership like pcs when frequently it's not that at all, annoys me. As does the idea that it would automatically lead to revolution lol

Also the whole idea of the crisis of leadership, that the working class have no agency of their own and instead need to be 'given a lead' is insane especially when many sp members don't the that. I don't regret my time in the sp at all, I learbt a lot and they get a lot of things right, but if they want things to progress further they will have to address these aspects of their ideology because Trotskyism has largely been a huge failure.
 
It was them or the greens. Luckily, right here amdi this sea of blue, our local councillor is, as a green, a good guy.

TUSC don't even feature here, and the Green vote is a blip. When he steps down I suspect that he will be replaced by a tory.
 
frogwoman said:
I was a member of the sp until last year. I don't have a problem with a 24 hour strike either, but there's little attempt to bring that stuff out of appealing to the section of workers (mostly public sector) who are still in trade unions and the Sp's fetishisation of 'left leaning' tu leadership like pcs when frequently it's not that at all, annoys me. As does the idea that it would automatically lead to revolution lol
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Just to clarify, it's not the position of the SP that a 24 hour general strike would lead to revolution.
 
What's the point? Why cal for a limited strike of 24hours, it won't be agreed to by the TUC, so it's purely a propaganda call. If so, why not call for a full unlimited general strike, which would also not be agreed by the TUC, but if won would actually do some good
 
belboid said:
they did call the biggest ever workers demonstration a couple of years back. They're not irrelevant, if they move millions of workers do actually move with them. Even more millions don't, its true, but it would be bloody great if the TUC did finally get off its arse.
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that was useless. they are irrelevant to the vast majority of workers. they won't move, they don't move, when they have in the past it has been purely to cap and control action from below.
it won't get off it's arse until we do something, which we won't cos we're fucked, then if they do they will fuck it up.
 
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discokermit said:
that was useless. they are irrelevant to the vast majority of workers. they won't move, they don't move, when they have in the past it has been purely to cap and control action from below.
it won't get off it's arse until we do something, which we won't cos we're fucked, then if they do they will fuck it up.
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In all fairness, I think it's naive to expect them to do anything without a hell of a lot of pressure put on them from below.
 
SpackleFrog said:
An upturn in class struggle more generally. I promise you nobody in the party is predicting a mighty upsurge in TUSC results. I'd say the most optimistic of us think we might win a couple of council seats in May and get a few respectable 2nd and 3rd places - if we're really lucky and we do all the hard work. I'm thinking by the time the elections are over we'll be going through big lists and picking out 10% and 20% results from a sea of 1-3% mediocrity.
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[Re...] "Kshama Sawant, in Seattle. In this case, the strategists of US capitalism were unprepared and did not believe that Kshama would storm to victory – initiating a surge in interest in socialism in the citadel of world capitalism as well as a mass campaign for a $15 an hour minimum wage. They will now attempt a counter-campaign, in vain. Nor was Owen Jones, the left-wing celebrity, who maintains a deafening silence over the reasons for Kshama’s victory while he rubbishes any idea that something similar is possible in Britain.
The sceptics will be confounded as the British labour movement rouses itself to confront a diseased and rotten system, and all those parties which are associated with it.
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http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/6712

So either
1) Taaffe actually believes that TUSC could "storm to victory" leaving the sceptics confounded, or
2) He doesn't believe this, but believes he needs to create a false impression

which is it? Delusion or deception?
 
articul8 said:
http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/6712

So either
1) Taaffe actually believes that TUSC could "storm to victory" leaving the sceptics confounded, or
2) He doesn't believe this, but believes he needs to create a false impression

which is it? Delusion or deception?
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Where in the section you quoted does he claim TUSC could storm to victory?

FFS, Taaffe is definitely past his best and getting on a bit. It's not hard to find things to criticise if you are so inclined. Don't make stuff up. Lazy.
 
I'm making nothing up. He clearly suggests that Jones is wrong to dismiss miss the possibility of TUSC doing "something similar" to Sawant in the US, ie. storming to victory.
 
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