Pop and Rock Stars... and underage girls

[killer b]

No I haven't . You've completely made all that shit up, you fucking nonce apologist .

You've overshot a bit there

 

[Casually Red]

Maddox was 13 ffs

13 !!!! And a virgin. She wasn't sexually mature or worldly wise or any of that shit . She was 13 and he gave her drugs and then fucked her . And it wasn't ok. Roman polanskis been on the hop from the law for the exact same thing for decades now .

 

[littlebabyjesus]

She was 14. And given that the only account we have of this happening is from her, you really ought to read her account of it before commenting in detail on what happened, no?

 

[Pickman's model]

She was 14. And given that the only account we have of this happening is from her, you really ought to read her account of it before commenting in detail on what happened, no?

13, 14 - i don't understand why you quibble so. it's not like the former's really bad and the latter's really good, is it?

 

[youngian]

Spain's AoC is 16 now. They increased it. Many of the countries with seemingly low AoC's also have laws that the guy has to be within (for example) 3 years of the age of the girl.

Holland's seemingly low age of consent is more about the law not interfering in teenage relationships if the parents don't object. Families can still report predatory older males if they deem the relationship with a child under 16 as inappropriate.

 

[Casually Red]

Let's leave aside a lot of things here. You have evidence that there were more girls than Maddox?

Ha..you edited that to " girls " after I pulled you up on it.

It's good you accept they weren't " women now ". That's progress . I feel like a counsellor or something .

 

[Idris2002]

Maddox was 13 ffs

13 !!!! And a virgin. She wasn't sexually mature or worldly wise or any of that shit . She was 13 and he gave her drugs and then fucked her . And it wasn't ok. Roman polanskis been on the hop from the law for the exact same thing for decades now .

Ah now, hang on, didn't Polanski give his victims drugs that actually rendered her unconscious. I've not changed my mind about what Bowie did, but there's no call for conflating his case with that of much worse people.

 

[killer b]

Considering Liam's express purpose was to have a discussion which avoided the dismissal of nuanced arguments as nonce apologism, don't you think throwing accusations of nonce apologism around is a bit off?

 

[Casually Red]

Ah now, hang on, didn't Polanski give his victims drugs that actually rendered her unconscious. I've not changed my mind about what Bowie did, but there's no call for conflating his case with that of much worse people.

Maddoxs tolerance for drugs as a child compared to polanskis victim shouldn't be an issue. She was drugged to be more compliant . He was an adult, he knew what he was at .

 

[littlebabyjesus]

13, 14 - i don't understand why you quibble so. it's not like the former's really bad and the latter's really good, is it?

Accuracy. Something CR doesn't seem bothered by, given that he's making up what happened rather than reading the one account there is to go on.

 

[Pickman's model]

Accuracy. Something CR doesn't seem bothered by, given that he's making up what happened rather than reading the one account there is to go on.

tbh i wonder who else he was shagging between 3/3/1973 and 7/4/1973

 

[Lucy Fur]

This sets the scene:
"In 1972, at a nightclub in LA, rockstar Jimmy Page laid eyes on Lori Maddox, a 14 year old girl. Maddox’s personal accounts in the unauthorized biography of Led Zeppelin, Hammer of the Gods, claim that Page told his tour manager, Richard Cole, to ‘kidnap’ her and take her to the West Hollywood hotel the band was staying in. Maddox admits to being kept under lock-and-key, presumably to keep 29-year-old Page from being imprisoned for child sexual abuse. In Hammer of the Gods, Maddox describes having fallen in love with Page almost instantly. Page and Maddox “dated” for months afterwards, until Page left Maddox for Bebe Buell, who was of legal age at the time.


Lori Maddox’s best friend, Sable Starr, has been linked to many of 1970’s biggest rockstars. In Please Kill Me: The Uncensored Oral History of Punk, Ron Asheton of the Stooges remembers Starr fondly:


“We had a gig at the Whiskey A-Go-Go when we first moved out there and that’s when we met Sable Starr, who was a really nice girl. First she was Iggy’s groupie, then with me, then would go back to Iggy, then back to me, then would go to my brother and back to me. We would do two sets at the Whiskey and in between sets, Sable would say, ‘Can I suck your dick?’ She was real open about that stuff, that’s what I always liked about her. So in between sets Sable would suck my dick in the upstairs men’s bathroom.”

Apparently Sable Starr was 14 to Ron Ashton's 25. Iggy Pop also endulged, and she finaly ended up with Johnny Thunders.

Iggy's lyrics:
I slept with Sable when she was 13,
Her parents were too rich to do anything,
She rocked her way around LA
‘Til a New York Doll carried her away…

No matter how willingly all concerned may or may not have entered into these arrangements, they are, to my mind unquestionably abusive. The first step to eradicating these attitudes in the future, is to give no amnesty to what has happened in the past. To do so is to forget, and to forgive. And those responsible have not even had the decency to ask forgiveness.

 

[Casually Red]

Accuracy. Something CR doesn't seem bothered by, given that he's making up what happened rather than reading the one account there is to go on.

She was 14 when she was with page. Virtually every account I've read states she was 13 when she was Bowie .

 

[Pickman's model]

Accuracy. Something CR doesn't seem bothered by, given that he's making up what happened rather than reading the one account there is to go on.

tell you what, why not read '14' for every '13' in Casually Red's posts and then everyone will be if not happy then less fussed.

 

[belboid]

Was there? Have you seen the teen mags trashpony linked to?

bizarrely, much of the actual text in them looked actually quite reasonable - if you ignore the context they are putting it in (ie 'catching' an older man). An awful lot of it is fairly common sense stuff you'd now see in Jackie, or its like - be confident in yourself, dont let boys bully you, pursue your dreams (not just of a sexual nature).

I'm sure there are dodgier sections in some of the many many pages I didn't read, but the above is illustrative of the times. It wasn't just about older men trying to use younger women and girls, it was a time when young people (adult and children) were having a taste of freedom for the first time, the shackles of fifties/early sixties conservatism had been thrown off, and many of the sexual mores rightly rejected. The whole question of what is a 'child' was thrown up, quite rightly. The voting age had just been lowered, homosexuality legalised, and the whole question of what an appropriate age of consent was up in the air. It was almost the first time that teenagers - any teenager - was seen to be allowed to have 'agency' of their own (not that they'd have said 'agency' back then). For many people at the time,if a young person said they wanted X or Y, then they should be seen as old enough to make that judgement, and it wasn't up to the oldies to deny them their rights. Of course we now rightly see that as far too simplistic, and open to abuse. Which is why mores continued to change over the next decade.

Just on the whole age of consent malarkey - it should also be remembered that the age - whatever age is chosen, whether its 14, 16 or 18 - is the age when it is presumed most young people have achieved the relevant maturity. It has to be, nothing magically happens on the event of your (whatever) birthday. And that means that it is undeniable that some young people will have the maturity to make those decisions at an earlier age.

None of which excuses the men who exploited those changes in morality, but just to note that that happened, and that there is a difference between those predatory males (like Rodney Bingenheimer) who organised exploitation and abuse, and those, like Bowie seems to have, who simply 'went long with it.' Both are wrong, but one is a fuck sight worse than the other.

Just on Bowie - I think this blog makes some very interesting points - David Bowie was wonderful. He was also an abuser. How do we handle that?

 

[Pickman's model]

She was 14 when she was with page. Virtually every account I've read states she was 13 when she was Bowie .

tbh i checked and she was born 11/11/1958; she first meets bowie in october 1972 but the intercourse takes place at some point between 3/3/1973 and 7/4/1973: tour dates - Ziggy Stardust Tour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[belboid]

Couldn't see this getting made these days... and couldn't imagine the abuse you'd get if you went to see it. But at the time it was an apparently hilarious comedy.

Actually, it's just been remade. Or, more precisely, there is a remake of the French original it was based on.

Also, it was almost universally panned when it came out, it certainly wasn't seen as hilarious.

Other films that spring to mind - Rita, Sue & Bob Too - seen as something of a kitchen sink Brit classic. Diary of a Teenage Girl - San Francisco in the early seventies, they may even go and see Iggy. Both films that explore teenage girls burgeoning sexuality via their interactions with older men, and neither is entirely disapproving.

 

[LiamO]

This sets the scene:
Lori Maddox’s best friend, Sable Starr, has been linked to many of 1970’s biggest rockstars. In Please Kill Me: The Uncensored Oral History of Punk, Ron Asheton of the Stooges remembers Starr fondly:

Iggy's lyrics:
I slept with Sable when she was 13,
Her parents were too rich to do anything,
She rocked her way around LA
‘Til a New York Doll carried her away…

So is this the smoking gun 8den demanded?

Fuck it. I can't c&p from that site. just click on the 'remembers Starr fondly" link and it takes you to the account of Sable Starr - another 'legendary' underage groupie - of shagging Bowie. And of him seeking her out, rather than the other way around., ,

 

[Pickman's model]

So is this the smoking gun 8den demanded?

difficult to find a rhyme for 12 i suppose

 

[Lord Camomile]

difficult to find a rhyme for 12 i suppose

Delve? A particularly posh valve?

 

[Pickman's model]

Delve? A particularly posh valve?

yeh. but 1) try working that into a song; & 2) the only lyrick i can think of involving 'delve' dates from 1381. not a common word in los angeles in the 1970s.

 

[belboid]

difficult to find a rhyme for 12 i suppose

'13' and 'anything' is already a bit of a stretch, rhymewise

 

[Lord Camomile]

yeh. but 1) try working that into a song; & 2) the only lyrick i can think of involving 'delve' dates from 1381. not a common word in los angeles in the 1970s.

Hey, they're the fucking artists, not me.

 

[Lucy Fur]

Okay. So you can't name any other women?

I merely ask because many posters have eluded to it, but 18 plus pages later here we are with just the one.

This was not a one off, 3 other girls reflect here, and a magazine dedicated to the whole culture of it:
Diamonds From The Mine: The New Generation of Groupies

 

[belboid]

2) the only lyrick i can think of involving 'delve' dates from 1381.

Run, Christian, Run by the Super Furry Animals:

And bang on the hour of twelve
To a forest clearing we'll delve

 

[LiamO]

Other films that spring to mind - Rita, Sue & Bob Too - seen as something of a kitchen sink Brit classic. Diary of a Teenage Girl - San Francisco in the early seventies, they may even go and see Iggy. Both films that explore teenage girls burgeoning sexuality via their interactions with older men, and neither is entirely disapproving.

I thought Rita, Sue and Bob too' was hilarious. Haven't watched in many years though. And certainly not as 'iffy' as 'Blame it on Rio'

 

[belboid]

I thought Rita, Sue and Bob too' was hilarious. Haven't watched in many years though. And certainly not as 'iffy' as 'Blame it on Rio'

No, I'd agree, I suspect that is largely because RS&BT is centred on the girls, not the men, and because it was written by a woman.

 

[LiamO]

difficult to find a rhyme for 12 i suppose

14 or 15 rhyme with 'anything' about as much as 13.

Anyways. read the link. That's what I was on about.

8den said if anyone could find another girl he would flip his switch and condemn Bowie. Wonder how he will wriggle out of fulfilling on that public commitment?

 

[Pickman's model]

Run, Christian, Run by the Super Furry Animals:

And bang on the hour of twelve
To a forest clearing we'll delve

they might have been better advised to say either noon or the midnight hour and go from there.

 

[Lucy Fur]

From the comments section after the last link I posted, a former groupie writes:

Bill LuckyJuly 21, 2015 at 12:33 PM

This is Susan, not Bill and I was one of those 13 year olds who slept with 30 yr old musicians, None so famous,BUT< what was weird, is that it was a socail model. As if the oppression of sex and women stemming from the Victorian age and before, finally, with the onset of Birth Control, allowed women to become sexually active. THE MISSING piece was that we were not women, we were children and speaking for myself, if these guys would have been willing to hang out with me, like they did with men, I would have been just as happy, The sex was the only way they were willikng to connect with me, I'm not sure if this is a legal matter as much as a social one. I'd LOVE to be able to talk to the very famous men, and ask, with no threat of legal action, how they feel about that behaviour today. Are they regretful....I have actuallhy spoken to one of the men I slept with, who will remain anonymous, but he was well known in the late 60s and his band is remembered will today. He was charmig and apologetic and asked if I was (at now 50) ok? He admitted it was the times and though not justifying the behaviour, he could see that we was swept up in it and never questioned the long term effect it might have on us young girls. I hope this helps give some insight in to the experience....I am ok, REALLY ok, but I did have to do some real therapy and self exploration, Some self forgiveness that I didn't take better care of me, even at the age of 13 and some serious forgivemess to my mom, for allowing me to run the streets at such a young age......