Pop and Rock Stars... and underage girls

[belboid]

Attempts to agree on a legal definition of the age of consent may be arbitrary but the concept of an age of consent is anything but arbitrary.

the concept is rather worthless with a specific definition tho, isn't it?

 

[killer b]

come on, it's Liam. The cunt just wants a fight

Well, we all like a fight. Doesn't mean there's nothing in it, and if you're going to enter the fray it's probably best at least reading what you're fighting against.

 

[billy_bob]

Attempts to agree on a legal definition of the age of consent may be arbitrary but the concept of an age of consent is anything but arbitrary.

Surely it's rather the other way round? The concept that there is 'an' age of consent is what's arbitrary. The legal definition has to be fixed somewhere, by definition. There are then valid questions about the validity of where it's been fixed but better to have one than not - again, in terms of the law at least. I don't think the law (generally speaking) then pretends that that's the scientifically determined be-all-and-end-all age before which everything is evil and after which everything is fine. Some notion of degree is recognised in sentencing, for example.

 

[discokermit]

Well, we all like a fight. Doesn't mean there's nothing in it, and if you're going to enter the fray it's probably best at least reading what you're fighting against.

and who with.

 

[Ranbay]

there were loads of songs from say the 50s onwards that actively expressed sexual fantasies around young women, pondering 'are you sixteen?' and so on. There was a definite fetishisation over teenage girls that seems to be have been a cultural meme even...and it was reinforced by men across the media, on tv, in the papers, and the less said about djs the better.

Whats upsetting to me about older men sleeping with young teenagers is the more than likely power imbalance - which suggests a degree of coercision and taking advantage, but also that the older man is getting a power trip from the whole experience. The power tripping also feeds into the way men were talking about it in the media - men ran the media in those days in a way they don't exclusively do so as much now. I'd like to think that sexual power tripping culture amongst men has changed somewhat since then, not just acting differently because it would be disapproved to sleep with young teens.

 

[SpackleFrog]

the concept is rather worthless with a specific definition tho, isn't it?

Of course - I was responding to what sounded like the suggestion that because its difficult to define the exact age then the whole notion of statutory rape/sex without consent/whatever should be done away with. You can argue the toss either way about whether the age of consent should be anything between 14 and 18 I think, but its ridiculous to do away with the notion altogether which is what trashpony seems to be getting at.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Is there any other testimony to Bowie's noncery besides Lori Maddox - who, it should be remembered, has made a fair amount of money from selling "I was a groupie"/"I was an under-age groupie" reminiscences.
I am not, by the way, challenging her claim that Bowie took her virginity, merely pointing out that this is another in a line of reminiscences.

 

[killer b]

'confessions of a pop performer' is worse for that kind of stuff - full of nudge nudge (and worse) stuff about young girls.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hitler took too much speed, so I guess we should give him an easy ride while we're at it.

Give him some amyl nitrate, more like!

 

[ViolentPanda]

'confessions of a pop performer' is worse for that kind of stuff - full of nudge nudge (and worse) stuff about young girls.

Never saw the appeal of either the books or the films. Benny Hill with added tits and sleaze.

 

[Ranbay]

'confessions of a pop performer' is worse for that kind of stuff - full of nudge nudge (and worse) stuff about young girls.

Have a memory of the window cleaner one where he's doing the six from all girls school windows?

 

[belboid]

Well, we all like a fight. Doesn't mean there's nothing in it, and if you're going to enter the fray it's probably best at least reading what you're fighting against.

I did. It struck me as disingenuous guff, to be very generous.

 

[8den]

Is there any other testimony to Bowie's noncery besides Lori Maddox - who, it should be remembered, has made a fair amount of money from selling "I was a groupie"/"I was an under-age groupie" reminiscences.
I am not, by the way, challenging her claim that Bowie took her virginity, merely pointing out that this is another in a line of reminiscences.

It's worth pointing out that the only account of Bowie having sex with an underage girl is Maddox (and also that I've read a few reports of Bowie berating Band mates for bringing underage fans back to the hotel) and Maddox account makes no reference that Bowie knew she was underage and furthermore she views the incident in a positive moment in her life.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You've either got to be in the 'he's a genius and I won't have a word said against him' box or the 'burn the witch' one. Apparently

Which when you consider that people want their idols to have feet of clay - because it humanises them, and makes the worshippers think "that could be me!" - is pretty strange.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't think you do.

I'm somewhere in the middle. I see Bowie as a great artist, but if he fucked a child knowing that she was a child - or even suspecting - then that's reprehensible. It doesn't, however, change the fact of his art, it merely changes how different individuals will go on to view that art.

 

[nino_savatte]

Never saw the appeal of either the books or the films. Benny Hill with added tits and sleaze.

They were fucking terrible films in terms of content and artistic merit.

 

[trashpony]

Of course - I was responding to what sounded like the suggestion that because its difficult to define the exact age then the whole notion of statutory rape/sex without consent/whatever should be done away with. You can argue the toss either way about whether the age of consent should be anything between 14 and 18 I think, but its ridiculous to do away with the notion altogether which is what trashpony seems to be getting at.

Eh? How the fuck did you come to that conclusion?

I think I'll leave you men to huff and puff among yourselves.

 

[8den]

Good idea I'm out...

 

[existentialist]

They were fucking terrible films in terms of content and artistic merit.

I was too young when they came out to even be particularly bothered about seeing them, but I'd always had it at the back of my mind that they were likely to be no more than a soft porn sleazefest, and never thought about it. Perhaps I should torrent one, just to see how far off the mark my judgemental preconceptions were

ETA: having looked at the Wikipedia write-up, I think I'll find something more useful to do with an hour and a half.

 

[treelover]

there were loads of songs from say the 50s onwards that actively expressed sexual fantasies around young women, pondering 'are you sixteen?' and so on. There was a definite fetishisation over teenage girls that seems to be have been a cultural meme even...and it was reinforced by men across the media, on tv, in the papers, and the less said about djs the better.

Whats upsetting to me about older men sleeping with young teenagers is the more than likely power imbalance - which suggests a degree of coercision and taking advantage, but also that the older man is getting a power trip from the whole experience. The power tripping also feeds into the way men were talking about it in the media - men ran the media in those days in a way they don't exclusively do so as much now. I'd like to think that sexual power tripping culture amongst men has changed somewhat since then, not just acting differently because it would be disapproved to sleep with young teens.

Happy birthday sweet sixteen
Tonight's the night I've waited for
Because you're not a baby anymore
You've turned into the prettiest girl I've ever seen
Happy birthday sweet sixteen
What happened to that funny face
My little tomboy now wears satin and lace
I can't believe my eyes you're just a teenage dream
Happy birthday sweet sixteen
When you were only six
I was your big brother
Then when you were ten
We didn't like each other
When you were thirteen
You were my funny valentine
But since you've grown up
Your future is sewn up
From now on you're gonna be mine, so

If I should smile with sweet surprise
It's just that you've grown up before my very eyes
You've turned into the prettiest girl I've ever seen
Happy birthday sweet sixteen

neil sedaka, happy birthday, sweet sixteen

 

[nino_savatte]

I was too young when they came out to even be particularly bothered about seeing them, but I'd always had it at the back of my mind that they were likely to be no more than a soft porn sleazefest, and never thought about it. Perhaps I should torrent one, just to see how far off the mark my judgemental preconceptions were

It was the closest we ever got to soft porn in this country... well, there was that awful film The Stud with Joan Collins and Oliver Tobias.

 

[treelover]

there were loads of songs from say the 50s onwards that actively expressed sexual fantasies around young women, pondering 'are you sixteen?' and so on. There was a definite fetishisation over teenage girls that seems to be have been a cultural meme even...and it was reinforced by men across the media, on tv, in the papers, and the less said about djs the better.

Whats upsetting to me about older men sleeping with young teenagers is the more than likely power imbalance - which suggests a degree of coercision and taking advantage, but also that the older man is getting a power trip from the whole experience. The power tripping also feeds into the way men were talking about it in the media - men ran the media in those days in a way they don't exclusively do so as much now. I'd like to think that sexual power tripping culture amongst men has changed somewhat since then, not just acting differently because it would be disapproved to sleep with young teens.

Plenty of the latter in your second paragraph in the rave scene, some of the older men, especially the promoters,etc thought they were Gods.

 

[belboid]

neil sedaka, happy birthday, sweet sixteen

B Side - 'Dont Lead Me On'

hmmm

 

[existentialist]

neil sedaka, happy birthday, sweet sixteen

Even as a 1970s kid, I knew there was something dubious about that song...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Is there any other testimony to Bowie's noncery besides Lori Maddox - who, it should be remembered, has made a fair amount of money from selling "I was a groupie"/"I was an under-age groupie" reminiscences.
I am not, by the way, challenging her claim that Bowie took her virginity, merely pointing out that this is another in a line of reminiscences.

fwiw, her account has her first meeting him aged 13 then having sex with him aged 14 a few months later. Then many times after that over the next 10 years. So he'd have been mid-20s, she 14, at their first sexual encounter.

My problem here is the nonce/not-nonce binary. I think it's clearly more complicated than that. Bowie wasn't Jimmy Savile.

 

[friedaweed]

Bowie wasn't Jimmy Savile.

Yup you are right but it did look like him and Garry Glitter shared the same tailor at least.

 

[treelover]

I wonder if there are other sites discussing this side of DB on social media, etc?

 

[killer b]

You're as capable of searching twitter as any of us, i expect. The answer is 'yes', of course.

 

[krtek a houby]

neil sedaka, happy birthday, sweet sixteen

Billy Idol - Sweet Sixteen
Finbar Furey - When You Were Sweet Sixteen

 

[Thora]

It's worth pointing out that the only account of Bowie having sex with an underage girl is Maddox (and also that I've read a few reports of Bowie berating Band mates for bringing underage fans back to the hotel) and Maddox account makes no reference that Bowie knew she was underage and furthermore she views the incident in a positive moment in her life.

This whole might not have known she was 14/do you ask sexual partners for ID and given that teenagers can look older - if you guessed you'd picked up a 16, 17, 18 year old girl in a club, wouldn't you double check that she wasn't underage?