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Pensioner arrested on suspicion of murder after a suspected burglar was stabbed to death.

tonysingh said:
That don't wash.

His children and partner (and othet assorted scumbag relatives) knew how he died, they can do their memorial and grieving elsewhere. It must be tough to lose somwons but all the same, they knew what he was and how he lived. This is on him and his family, it's their fault. If they want to mark where he truly died, they need leave their poxy tributes at home.

Leaving them outside the old boys house seems more like intimidation to me as well as being crass and insensitive.
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How is that different to what I said? The bit about the flowers I mean.
 
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Looby said:
The flowers were mainly from his children and partner apparently. He was clearly a fucking scumbag but even scumbags have people they love and who loved them so I’m not going to condemn his family for grieving for him.
Pretty fucking shit putting the flowers opposite the house though and does seem more like a warning than a tribute but who knows.
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Not to mention attaching the stuff to other people's fences, walls, etc. In the circumstances, you'd have to be pretty insensitive not to see the scope for causing upset or provocation.
 
The people leaving the tributes must be pretty fucking dim, given there's almost certainly still a police presence there. Anything happens to the old boy then they'll know where to start looking.
 
crossthebreeze said:
No that makes it more of an open and shut case. If the accomplice stayed with his mate and had a story that clashed with what the pensioner said then that would be one thing. But leaving your accomplice dying in the street, running off, burning your van out, and going into hiding is a big signal that the two of you weren't there innocently and you don't have anything to add that you care about more than saving your own back. Then forensics will have corroborated the pensioner's story, so they don't need a witness.
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You've got me wrong if you think I'm arguing an injustice has been done - and I'll go along with the word 'scumbag' that has been used several times in the thread. It's fucking disgusting to make a life out of preying on the elderly. And ditto in terms of the bloke who ran off. But it doesn't follow that because he ran off that he had nothing to say about the case. I think there's every chance that what he would have said would have corroborated the pensioners story which, I imagine was something along the lines of 'came across the burglars, one of them armed with a screwdriver... scuffle... stabbed him in self defence'. However, it still seems odd that the police would call the case (via the cps) without speaking to the one person who (probably) witnessed it. There have certainly been longer investigations in similar cases in the past, at least from memory. So, after all that, the only point I'm making is that the police had a PR narrative in mind and didn't want it to play out.
 
Wilf said:
You've got me wrong if you think I'm arguing an injustice has been done - and I'll go along with the word 'scumbag' that has been used several times in the thread. It's fucking disgusting to make a life out of preying on the elderly. And ditto in terms of the bloke who ran off. But it doesn't follow that because he ran off that he had nothing to say about the case. I think there's every chance that what he would have said would have corroborated the pensioners story which, I imagine was something along the lines of 'came across the burglars, one of them armed with a screwdriver... scuffle... stabbed him in self defence'. However, it still seems odd that the police would call the case (via the cps) without speaking to the one person who (probably) witnessed it. There have certainly been longer investigations in similar cases in the past, at least from memory. So, after all that, the only point I'm making is that the police had a PR narrative in mind and didn't want it to play out.
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The police will have been only too aware of how this was going to pan out, and wouldn't have wanted to be seen to be hanging on to the old guy any longer than absolutely necessary

But let's face it, he's now in, effectively protective custody. He's probably not able to do much without the police being aware anyway and if additional information were to come to light, they know exactly where to find him. Win/win from their point of view.
 
Spymaster said:
Absolutely. It's a message, plain and simple.
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Its more than that, it may not be planned but it disseminates the clan name and reputation further and wider. You would think that an incident like this would give some pause for reflection by the family to consider how their choices impact others, but it will likely go the other way. See how many hangers on turn up for the funeral cortege and see how the press will use this as their default headline if there is nothing better to stick on the front page. I utterly fucking detest shitty criminal clans like this, notoriety emoboldens them & often has the effect of dragging in peripheral family members into the judicious use of the name. awful awful awful cunts.

/ sorry for bad language
 
not-bono-ever said:
Its more than that, it may not be planned but it disseminates the clan name and reputation further and wider. You would think that an incident like this would give some pause for reflection by the family to consider how their choices impact others, but it will likely go the other way. See how many hangers on turn up for the funeral cortege and see how the press will use this as their default headline if there is nothing better to stick on the front page. I utterly fucking detest shitty criminal clans like this, notoriety emoboldens them & often has the effect of dragging in peripheral family members into the judicious use of the name. awful awful awful cunts.

/ sorry for bad language
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Bad language? You put it much more eloquently than I ever could!
 
not-bono-ever said:
Its more than that, it may not be planned but it disseminates the clan name and reputation further and wider. You would think that an incident like this would give some pause for reflection by the family to consider how their choices impact others, but it will likely go the other way. See how many hangers on turn up for the funeral cortege and see how the press will use this as their default headline if there is nothing better to stick on the front page. I utterly fucking detest shitty criminal clans like this, notoriety emoboldens them & often has the effect of dragging in peripheral family members into the judicious use of the name. awful awful awful cunts.
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Spot on. Similar shows of strength are made when gang members get offed. Behind the symbols of 'respect' and commemoration is a) the visual/physical marking of territory and b) a reminder to the wider communiy about who is in control.

In Birmingham recently a gang member's house was painted/graffitied on the outside with messages, tags and reminders with tributes to 'the fallen soldier'. It was, I thought, a visually stunning image and and a powerful message to other gangs, the police and most importantly those living amongst it about who was in control.

Your peripheralisation point - in respect of gangs and how those around them whether family or mates or just acquantances are pulled further in by this type of stuff - is a really important one for those interested in thinking through how they can be effectively challenged in WC areas.

In this South London case, the message could not be clearer. We will still be here, when the police and the media have moved on. We can come here when we like. The effect is that this couple will either need to be uprooted and to spend their last years preumably outside of the community they like and where they know people and have support etc or alternatively live in cuircumstances where very knock at the door or bump in the night causes fear.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
Spot on. Similar shows of strength are made when gang members get offed. Behind the symbols of 'respect' and commemoration is the a) the visual/physical marking of territory and b) a reminder to the wider communiy about who is in control.

In Birmingham recently a gang member's house was painted/graffitied on the outside with messages, tags and reminders with tributes to 'the fallen soldier'. It was, I thought, a visually stunning image and and a powerful message to other gangs, the police and most impotantly those living amongst it about who was in control.

Your peripheralisation point - in respect of gangs and how those around them are pulled further in by this type of stuff - is a really important one for those interested in thinking through how they can be effectively challenged in WC areas.

In this South London case, the message could not be clearer. We will still be here, when the police and the media have moved on. We can come here when we like. The effect is that this couple will either need to be uprooted and to spend their last years preumably outside of the community they like and where they know people and have support etc or alternatively live in cuircumstances where very knock at the door or bump in the night causes fear.
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yeh their last years elsewhere or their last weeks or months where they are.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
Spot on. Similar shows of strength are made when gang members get offed. Behind the symbols of 'respect' and commemoration is a) the visual/physical marking of territory and b) a reminder to the wider communiy about who is in control.

In Birmingham recently a gang member's house was painted/graffitied on the outside with messages, tags and reminders with tributes to 'the fallen soldier'. It was, I thought, a visually stunning image and and a powerful message to other gangs, the police and most importantly those living amongst it about who was in control.

Your peripheralisation point - in respect of gangs and how those around them whether family or mates or just acquantances are pulled further in by this type of stuff - is a really important one for those interested in thinking through how they can be effectively challenged in WC areas.

In this South London case, the message could not be clearer. We will still be here, when the police and the media have moved on. We can come here when we like. The effect is that this couple will either need to be uprooted and to spend their last years preumably outside of the community they like and where they know people and have support etc or alternatively live in cuircumstances where very knock at the door or bump in the night causes fear.
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I think there's also an element of 'performance' to it as well, from relatives and others as you say, drawn in. Ditto any threats and talk of revenge. It's the thing you do, incorporated into bereavement, incorporated into a sense of 'we're still here, we've lost somebody, but we still have a form of power'. Having said that, that's one side of the equation only. If I was the one living in the house where this 'performance' was taking place, I'd be fucking terrified and would feel vulnerable for years to come. There have been and still are revenge attacks, I just don't see it happening in this case.
 
tonysingh said:
I rather suspect the old bill have thought of this and are putting measures in place. If nothing else it'd be good procedure.

Also, this wanky family. Aurely even they'd be able to see that retribution on this case would bring a whole shit storm down on them. They caused this to happen by being such a bunch of cunts and using crime as the family trade, this whole tragedy is on them. They should take their licks and just fuck off.
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The deceased family are as unlikely to be so stupid as not to wait for the dust to settle. As for your faith in the police in my experience you are being utterly naive.
It'll will be the victim, sadly, who would be wise to move, and cos of what? for not being quite the soft touch a 78 year old was supposed to be.


The world sucks
 
Wilf said:
I think there's also an element of 'performance' to it as well, from relatives and others as you say, drawn in. Ditto any threats and talk of revenge. It's the thing you do, incorporated into bereavement, incorporated into a sense of 'we're still here, we've lost somebody, but we still have a form of power'. Having said that, that's one side of the equation only. If I was the one living in the house where this 'performance' was taking place, I'd be fucking terrified and would feel vulnerable for years to come. There have been and still are revenge attacks, I just don't see it happening in this case.
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You have more faith than me!
 
cupid_stunt said:
You have more faith than me!
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Yeah, certainly in the short term, there's a good chance the family or his mates would do something - maybe something significant - but I doubt it in the long term. And they aren't going to be able to get at him in the short term. Can't be specific because I don't know the family, but once the dust settles it will be hard to portray the burglar as a 'fallen soldier' or similar bollocks. The potential for revenge attacks isn't tightly linked to how the person died, but there will at least be a nagging doubt, given that the bloke died terrifying a pensioner in his own home. Suppose what I mean is, in the cold light of day, there's not much honour to be had killing a pensioner. More likely to be an ongoing facebook campaign of threats against him, with consequent arrests for that.
 
Wilf said:
... and their kids?
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The family can afford to buy a nice new shiny house out of the hundreds of thousands of pounds they extorted from vulnerable people.

Charged a pensioner £72,000 to replace one roof tile. Another was made to sign over her £150,000 house having already handed over her £28,000 life savings.

Families (including kids) can be evicted for anti-social behaviour.

Pretty anti-social behaviour I'd say.
 
happie chappie said:
The family can afford to buy a nice new shiny house out of the hundreds of thousands of pounds they extorted from vulnerable people.

Charged a pensioner £72,000 to replace one roof tile. Another was made to sign over her £150,000 house having already handed over her £28,000 life savings.

Families (including kids) can be evicted for anti-social behaviour.

Pretty anti-social behaviour I'd say.
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I'm actually in favour of communities themselves acting against anti-social behaviour - and in the absence of that wouldn't actually complain about some of the specific evictions local authorities have carried out due to ASB. But this knee jerk 'kick 'em out' stuff is only one step away from 'cut their benefits off'.
 
Wilf said:
I'm actually in favour of communities themselves acting against anti-social behaviour - and in the absence of that wouldn't actually complain about some of the specific evictions local authorities have carried out due to ASB. But this knee jerk 'kick 'em out' stuff is only one step away from 'cut their benefits off'.
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... or, less confrontationally, we have to keep a working class perspective on ASB, not join in with the right's version.
 
Wilf said:
I'm actually in favour of communities themselves acting against anti-social behaviour - and in the absence of that wouldn't actually complain about some of the specific evictions local authorities have carried out due to ASB. But this knee jerk 'kick 'em out' stuff is only one step away from 'cut their benefits off'.
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Given the extent and nature of their extortion any benefits should be cut-off.
 
Wilf said:
How far would you go with that principle?
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Let's turn it on its head. Give me a convincing case why they should receive benefits.

In fact, they've got a fucking cheek claiming them in the first place.

Why should they have a subsidised housing association dwelling?
 
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