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Peak Oil (was "petroleum geologist explains US war policy")

Interesting discussion over on Kuro5hin, Many diverse views - anyone wondering what a more neo-con opinion on all this might be should be able to find one or two there. ;)

Re: Biomass;

THE LIMITS OF BIOMASS UTILIZATION (60kb Word .doc) discusses most aspects of biomass as a fuel/replacement for fossil derived energy in some detail. Outlook: Bleak, with widespread doom.
burn.gif
 
Just a quick shameless bump to say that the BBC Radio programmes 'Pipeline Politics' are currently being repeated on BBC Radio 4 at 1.30 pm on Sunday afternoons.

I'm really looking forward to the third programme as it seems some sort of 'mix up' occured when it was first broadcast on the web which meant the second programme was repeated and I never got to hear the third (Venezuela's Oil Coup).

Simply one of the most informative things I've come across since perhaps Butcher's Apron's links on this thread. ;)
 
Originally posted by flippant
I read a speech from a Bush cabinet guy that he gave in 2000 I believe. He talked about doing something as drastic as shrinking our economies in fact. It was obvious the administration knows of the problem facing us. I think a lot more people know of the future prob then we may think. Hopefully, they can somehow thwart it.
At the risk of lowering the tone of this relatively huge thread that I may never get to the end of (well, technically I will when I post this), the synopsis of 'Stargate SG-1: Revisions' may have a bearing on this discussion. Dwindling power supply? Drastic measures taken to solve the problem, or at least postpone the inevitable? Control of imformation that leaves Orwell standing?

The curious thing is that none of the people who reviewed the episode (and I can't see any way of adding my own tuppence worth) appeared to see a parallel with US policy on energy conservation. Perhaps I only did because I saw the episode yesterday, and this thread now, after a long break from U75. Anyone else think that the producers of 'SG-1' are doing a 'lickle bit of politics'?
 
Originally posted by Stardark

The curious thing is that none of the people who reviewed the episode appeared to see a parallel with US policy on energy conservation.

I've not seen this program, StarDark, although it sounds interesting.

What struck me about the reviews (after reading throught the spoilers etc) was that there was a good parallel between the views of the reviewers and the general public's awareness/views of the coming energy crisis, for example, one reviewer writes:

"The real problem I had with this story, though, was its lack of dramatic tension. At no time did I feel a true sense of danger.."

Maybe they don't see any parallels because they don't see any problems with the energy policy. :eek:

---


Very interesting article turned up in todays Independent:



The axis of oil: how a plan for the world's biggest pipeline threatens to wreak havoc
It is a story of empire-building, intrigue, espionage, double-dealing and arm-twisting that Rudyard Kipling would have been proud to write.

Kipling popularised the phrase "The Great Game" to describe the secret battle to dominate central Asia fought between the British Empire, Russia and France.

But even he would have blanched at plans by the United States - with the help of the oil giant BP and British taxpayers - to establish a hegemony across an area stretching from the Russian borders to the Mediterranean Sea...

...Since the 11 September 2001 terrorist attacks, the US has enthusiastically started building military bases across a region that was off limits during the Cold War, offering financial aid to country governments in exchange for permission.

The pipeline will be guarded either by the US Army or by local forces that are dependent on US support. Inevitably, opposition groups to the current governments are labelled terrorists by the Americans....

...imperial ambitions in the region will end in the same way they did for the British and the Russians: "The actors may have changed since Kipling's time but its culmination in war and death remains the same and the victims are nearly always innocent civilians," he writes. "They know why oil is called the Devil's tears."
 
Here's quite an interesting and substantial (130-odd pages of detailed appendices for 20 pages of main text) article by a US think-tank on depletion and the likely political and economic impacts. The author takes a kind of middle of the road position, but explicitly considers both the optimistic and pessimistic positions along the way.

http://www.cna.org/pdfs/oil_oneil.pdf (warning, PDF file)

"To sum up so far, we can reasonably envision a possible course events somewhat along the following lines:

•An increasing concentration of crude oil production capacity in the hands of a few nations—around the Persian Gulf especially, with Iraq and Iran very prominent. The Persian Gulf might come to hold more than 50% of the world’s remaining accessible oil by 2020 or so, and the proportion could in-crease further.

•A sharp narrowing of the gap between potential production and consumption. Eventually, the gap will close altogether and it will no longer be feasible to maintain production rates. The production peak might come as early as the 2020s or as late as the 2060s, depending on how much oil there actually is and how fast production grows.

•An increase in prices as the slack in supply is taken up. This could be gradual and smooth, but a series of sharp price shocks seems much more likely.

•Massive investment in facilities to produce alternative sources of fuels as the peak of crude oil production is approached and passed. As these facilities come on line they will cushion the impact of crude oil’s decline by providing sources of fuel. But the fuel they produce will be costly and it is unlikely that new production capacity will match demand smoothly.

•Continued strong influence in the market by the crude oil producers for decades following the peak in crude production. While their share of fuels production will decline, they will have a large production-cost advantage that will give them market power.

None of this is certain, of course. But it seems very possible."
 
Originally posted by Idris2002
<snip> Also, can US military power really save the US economy from itself? After all, civilian keynesianism has so far not revived the Japanese economy, so can we really assume that military keynesianism would revive the US economy?
Here is a 2001 report to the US government, which one might assume reflects at least the public face of their thinking on these matters.

I'm not sure at all that their primary intention is to address, say the massive US debt problem, with any military-keynesian policies. Although I suspect that one could argue that their propensity to make military attacks on those who annoy them tends to reduce the threat that those holding US debt in large quantities will try to cash it in or otherwise call the US's bluff.

I think the motivation for establishing large US forces in Iraq is more of a geostrategic thing. Due to the geology of hydrocarbon deposits, in a couple of decades, most of the smaller and more diverse sources of oil will be played out, and much of the worlds' remaing oil & gas reserves will be held by a few countries, e.g. Saudi, Iraq and Iran with some gas from former Soviet territories.

In that situation, and given the growing demand from e.g. China, you can see why the US would want to make very sure they're the ones controlling world supplies. Again, if they control the oil that the EU depends on, you can be sure that they'd use it as a sanction to prevent trading in Euros, or any other action likely to expose the huge economic vulnerability presented by the US debt.
 
In that situation, and given the growing demand from e.g. China, you can see why the US would want to make very sure they're the ones controlling world supplies. Again, if they control the oil that the EU depends on, you can be sure that they'd use it as a sanction to prevent trading in Euros, or any other action likely to expose the huge economic vulnerability presented by the US debt.

can't say I agree. OPEC tried essentially to remove america's grasp over the oil market with the oil embargo, and failed, or precisely the same reason america's efforts will fail... oil is a fungible resource. Once a tanker is in international waters, it can easily re-route to the destination of the highest bidder for its goods.

America's oil security is really only under threat ( as is everyone else's ) if a nutter taliban-type bloke gets in power who has no real interest in selling his oil to anyone. And even in the ultra-religious SA, giving up cradle-to-grave social welfare programs and gold watches for caves doesn't seem like a reasonably likely outcome.

America's true power over the world's oil production comes from it's economic clout. It can, and will, outbid others for petrol. However, as long as the rest of world depends on selling america imports to maintain their own economic growth, there is very little chance of those countries selling off yankee debt.
 
Nice to have you back on the case nano :)

I'd suggest that there is good evidence that the US government is deeply concerned about these issues and is prepared to take measures to protect its access to cheap fossil fuels. There are many reports and papers that have been produced for the US government on this subject and related subjects. One of these I linked above, I believe plenty more of them can be found here (this site is not accessable to me right now, but it's a .edu so I expect it'll be back fairly soon)
 
Good to be back Bernie. :)

Yes, that previous rice uni link was most interesting, but was there anything in there really a surprise? ‘Security’ does not necessary entail warships and tanks. The suggestions made were realistic and pragmatic, but yes, there is an urgency to review america’s energy policy, as it is simply not sustainable or stable.

Of course we both know that ‘diversification’ of fossil fuels is rather difficult when geology doesn’t want to play along. There is very little policy wonks or petrol bosses can do about the concentration of hydrocarbons in the mideast.

Unfortunately, there are idiots ( not just in the white house, but other house’s of power the world over ) who see the world in terms of brute strength, and thus, in a self-destructive paranoid fashion, are certain that energy ‘security’ can only be achieved by putting yanks with guns in the desert sands. It’s folly. Good lefties have been arguing for generations ( correctly so ) that interventionist foreign policy almost certainly results in ‘blow-back’. America could not stop the revolution in Iran, nor will it in Saudi Arabia if and when one comes. Public opinion over iraq is quickly turning with the loss of a few hundred soldiers. There is no way America could sustain a long-term military occupation in a land where it is not welcome. That is not ‘security’.

Nope. As long as oil is being sold, and yanks want to buy it, along with everyone else, a market to bring the two together, directly, or indirectly, will be around.

[edited to fix typo]
 
No argument with anything you've said there nano. Since you're around, I'd like to try out a new perspective on this stuff if I may.

The Earth has some sustainable carrying capacity, we might disagree as to what it is, but we could probably agree that it's betweeen let's say 1 and 5 billion? (currently 6 billion and rising)

There is also some finite amount of fossil fuels to be consumed, but again, we may disagree on the quantity and recovery prospects. Still though, we probably agree that it's finite.

On this thread, you've made some strong arguments about the mitigating effects of market forces. Which I take to mean that global demand will be moderated with supplies failing, through price mechanisms. I think this means a longer interval between now and the point where demand exceeds supply, but not the avoidance of that point altogether. Given rising population and falling oil stocks I don't see how that could fail to eventually happen, given that energy demand rises with population growth.

As you know, I think this means that various non-sustainable systems depending on limitless cheap oil energy will start to fail, notably industrial food systems, which are highly dependent. So in a worse case scenario, it's all a big surprise and billions of people starve to death. In the better cases, mitigation occurs.

The only way I can imagine for the global markets to effect the 'perfect' solution, where demand never exceeds supply, would be for market mechanisms of some kind to rapidly reduce the population, e.g. by pricing food and basic medical care out of poor people's reach on an even wider scale than at present, and perhaps also by creating lots more new poor and even starving people through a global depression or some similar mechanism.

If we're very lucky, people like the Cornell prof I was quoting on the US poverty thread are being seriously pessimistic about carrying capacity and stabilising mechanisms such as market forces and intelligent human actions can damp the systemic shocks down to something manageable without billions starving or dying of war and other diseases. If we are already as badly overshot as seems probable to me. I don't see any soft landing.

Either oil lasts for longer than I think it will, and population grows even larger before it all crashes down, or it doesn't in which case we probably get caught by surprise in a few years time. Both bad.

I'd be interested to hear any further thoughts on this subeject.
 
not much for simple direct questions are you bernie?


Ok, so lets put aside my general disagreement with your energy crisis ( i happen to think falling water tables and soil erosion are a much bigger concern for modern industrial agriculture ), and consider your scenario.

Where to begin?

The number of peeps that the earth can support is a wild guess at best, and most numbers will typically assume that modern agricultural practices are used, thus producing high-yield foods. So, if you are suggesting that we as a human civilization will be forced to pre-industrial age farming, when 80-90% of the population was required to produce our food ( as opposed to 2-5% range now required ), than I would suggest that the number of peeps this planet can support is significantly less than a billion.

So if we are indeed forced by lack of energy ( or soil erosion, or lack of fresh water ) to drastically cut production of food, and to make up for this short-fall by increasing the number of man-hours required to produce every calorie, than, I concur, death awaits many. Food prices will rise, production will fall, disposable income will drop.

Ah... but does this have anything to do with markets?

you stated that the source of this problem are the physical limitations: finite fossil fuel and the like. So let's be clear, if mass starvation does occur due to a reduction in available ( cheap ) natural resources, it is certainly not the fault of markets.

So the question that needs to be asked, in your scenario, is how do we best mitigate the horrors of the inevitable? I don't think it would come as much of a surprise if I were to respond with markets of course.

why? economics!

Attempts to collectively ( ie: central planning, the seductive choice ) produce calories back-fires enormously because it fails to allocate resources economically. I'm not talking just about oil, but all resources. Getting an engineer to plow fields is not economical. Planting crops that require lots of water in a desert is not economical.

Increasing prices of energy can be offset ( how much is debatable ) by new technologies such as GPS, long-term weather forecasting, GM-crops, water markets, free-trade, all of which lower barriers to entry, increase a farmer's knowledge, and allows him to do more with less.

So, if as you say, we are heading for an energy crisis which will surely devastate humanity, you'd better hope our governments are wise enough to stop meddling in agriculture, and allow markets to efficiently produce as much produce as possible with what dwindling resources we have left.
 
Thanks for the fast reply nano. Sorry if I was rambling a bit, but I'm actively trying to think this stuff through at present.

I think there is something in what you say, and I am the last person you'll find praising the virtues of central planning and associated horrors in post WW2 agriculture. That's a big part of how we got in this mess. What I would want to say though, is:

Total Impact = Individual Impact * Population

So it's not enough just to do the best we can to improve food production while using less industrial resources and oil energy. More food eventually means more mouths to feed, all other things being equal. If billions aren't to end up starving to death, global population presumably needs to be stablised by some more humane means, in addition to rapidly introducing other sustainability measures to limit the other term in the equation.

The only humane and sustainable solutions to this system of constraints, should therefore account for how we'll do more with less resources, while also accounting for how the population pressure on our remaining resources will be lifted. Population growth is an incredibly touchy issue though, for all kinds of different reasons. For some people it implies forced sterilisation programmes and patriarchal oppression, for others it implies fascists fulminating about immigration issues, for others still it means violations of civil liberties or religious law. If you have no support system like a welfare state, you have every incentive to reproduce heavily in the hope of support in old age, so it's very difficult to tell such people that they can have only 1.5 kids now.

I find this taboo a bit surprising, since way back in the 1970's population was a primary issue in the environmental movement and had even gone mainstream. Now it seems to have become a sinister taboo subject, except in odd little corners. While on the right, some rather aggressive disinformation campaigns (by companies selling GM organisms, ethanol fuel projectors and major US agricorps) have been directed at people like Prof. David Pimentel and his colleagues for writing papers about this stuff.
 
Before anyone asks me to back up the assertion I made above about disinformation, here are some of David Pimentel's articles.

http://www.mnforsustain.org/author_pimentel_david.htm

Here's an example or two from what looks to me like a corporate disinformation campaign against this kind of science. I might be wrong of course, but that's what it looks like to me anyway.

http://www.soybean.com/avery185.htm

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/articles/1999/nov_19_99.htm

http://www.ncga.com/news/notd/2002/may/051002.htm

http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,21927,00.html
 
Thanks guys very informative as per usual, and without being too simplistic, and being aware of the relatively low meat consumption in the sub-continent and possibly China, that a change to a vegetarian diet in the first world would have a dramatic affect on the figures.

newharper
 
I think it likely that it would. Typically we assume say 0.5 ha each is necessary to provide an EU type diet using sustainable farming methods. In China they are currently getting by on 0.08 ha each, albeit with rapidly increasing quantities of oil energy inputs.

Edited to add:

Pimentel is already making some assumptions about that stuff though, so I wouldn't expect him to say 'Oh my, I was wrong all along, global carrying capacity is actually over 10 billion after all'
 
Howdy Bernie.

Interesting dilemma this. Consider that any human, be it rich or poor, requires essentially the same number of calories to survive, thus we have no choice but to reduce the number of inhabitants on this planet to match the decrease in global food production…. But, saving mass forced starvation, war, or forced sterility, the only way to reduce our population is to reduce our fertility rate, which any demographer will tell you, is closely linked to economic wealth. Rich nations almost universally have negative-growth rates among their native inhabitants. So it seems the answer to our population problems is to push for policies that can develop the developing-world. ( ie: free movement of goods, money, and people across borders ) Unfortunately, although this may decrease the world’s population, it will significantly increase the world’s energy consumption… so we’re back to square one.

There are no real easy answers to these questions, and there are valid reasons for making discussions of population control ‘taboo’. I often on these boards stress my opinion that markets are a powerful ( and beneficial ) force for social change, well so is demographics. The Israeli-Palestinian crisis was always something I viewed as unfortunate, but ultimately, temporary problem. Demographic trends will force a two state solution, or even destroy the jewish state. It’s only a matter of time. And it is precisely this power of demographics that makes it tempting for social planners of questionable motives to take advantage of fears, and implement genocidal policies.

But there are other means besides forced sterilization. It should come as no surprise that I suggest markets. Governments in developed world have been subsidizing the production of children for decades, and as their populations shrink, support continues to grow. This should stop immediately. If countries are worried about declining population, they should open their borders, not pay people to have children. This can be taken further by imposing a tax on a children, or at least, make the parents pay the full price for the burden ( for example: stop government subsidies of agricultural and dairy products ).

Harsh?

Absolutely. But if it’s a choice between taxing parents for having kids or genocide… well, that’s not much of a choice.

Lets hope we don’t have to make it.
 
Originally posted by nanoespresso
Howdy Bernie.

Interesting dilemma this. Consider that any human, be it rich or poor, requires essentially the same number of calories to survive, thus we have no choice but to reduce the number of inhabitants on this planet to match the decrease in global food production…. <snip>.
The big problem that I can see looming is in effect, part of the world saying:

'All humans share this problem, let's find a humane solution.'

and the other part saying, (perhaps on talk radio):

'Those people over there don't deserve to eat, because they're all <choose up to six from: economically unviable, degenerate, lazy, evil capitalists, evil communists, evil heretics, an evil race>.'

If you look at the sort of material we've been discussing in this thread over the last few months, the problem can seem so hard to solve that it's easy to imagine how tempting an option the second attitude might seem in a few decades time. To make analogy with Liebig's Law, only one of our current unsustainable support systems has to fail for large numbers of people to starve to death.

It's also easy to see why concerns profiting from the status quo would want to a) use disinformation to mask these problems, b) act competitively to preserve their way of existence at all costs.

A horde of desperate starving people is a tragedy to you or me, but it's an opportunity to cut costs for every corporation on Earth.
 
OK nano, I saw the light, kinda. Although I'm not converted yet.

I now see the attraction of markets. Your view sort of reconciles the two viewpoints I just described. If markets actually do what you believe they will do, there is no contradiction. By behaving to maximise rational self-interest, you are doing what's best for all humanity. Assuming that markets behave as you think, not only in present conditions (which I think debatable), but also in very atypical conditions, assuming any of the more dramatic scenarios.
 
Here's something hopeful. The relatively successful efforts of Cubans towards achieving local sustainability over about a decade.

http://www.dal.ca/~dp/reports/simovic2st.html

http://www.blythe.org/ai/urban-agro.htm

http://www.dal.ca/~dp/reports/ztaboulchanas/taboulchanasst.html

http://www.gardeners.com/gardening/content.asp?copy_id=5038

http://www.cityfarmer.org/CubaGreen.html

http://www.theecologist.org/archive_article.html?article=140

When the USSR fell, the Cubans suddenly had all of their oil and chemical imports cut off, along with the US embargo, that meant that they were in a situation that has a fair bit in common with that likely to occur with global oil scarcity. They're therefore a kind of trial run for the rest of us, and their successes in shortening the distance between farm and table have been remarkable.

You may find the following passage (from the cityfarmer link) interesting:

"In contributing to the slightly improved food situation, the urban gardens--called agroponicos or organoponicos--have been able to circumvent many of the logistical hurdles and other problems that afflict agriculture in the countryside. There is no need to transport vegetables grown on these municipal plots because people buy them on the spot. That eliminates virtually all the cumbersome state bureaucracy that usually stands between farmers and consumers."

As you know, I think Ruralisation (integrating settlements with agriculture) is a promising model for sustainable food security. Also

(edited to fix gibberish, and to add links showing happy Commies growing tasty organic veg without recourse to industrial processes.)
 
hi bernie,

I'm aware of cuba's farming 'revolution' since the collapse of support from the USSR, and it's enough to make this neo-liberal's heart warm. Cuban farmers were faced with the end of centralized farming, the end of subsidies, and how did they respond? Well, like all good independent, intelligent idividuals, they grew what would sell for personal profit. The cuban model is a success because government control more or less evaporated. Farmers were allowed to intereact with their customers in a market, and respond accordingly with the resources they had avlaible. Scarcity of resources provides opprotunity for enterprising farmers who can do more with less.

it's all pretty predictable.

For all of our talk about our capitalist western ways ruining agriculture, in reality our subsidized, controlled, protected farmers should be set free to sink or swim in a market.
 
Originally posted by nanoespresso
hi bernie,

I'm aware of cuba's farming 'revolution' since the collapse of support from the USSR, and it's enough to make this neo-liberal's heart warm. Cuban farmers were faced with the end of centralized farming, the end of subsidies, and how did they respond? Well, like all good independent, intelligent idividuals, they grew what would sell for personal profit. The cuban model is a success because government control more or less evaporated. Farmers were allowed to intereact with their customers in a market, and respond accordingly with the resources they had avlaible. Scarcity of resources provides opprotunity for enterprising farmers who can do more with less.

it's all pretty predictable.

For all of our talk about our capitalist western ways ruining agriculture, in reality our subsidized, controlled, protected farmers should be set free to sink or swim in a market.
Well, yes. I am impressed with the Cuban achievements too, but I think these do not necessarily amount to a ringing endorsement of neo-liberal ideology. By growing and selling locally, you get two big advantages. Firstly, simple local markets suffice to distribute the goods. This keeps the state out of the equation in Cuba, leading to efficiency improvements. If implemented here, it'd presumably do just as well at keeping corporate capitalism out of the equation, which I like as much as you like keeping the state out. Secondly, you use less energy on industrial processing and transport, which I also like a lot for obvious reasons.

Furthermore, Cuba had special conditions, some of them attributable to a state that could in principle say 'Si amigos, go grab any old bits of unused public land and grow stuff on them'

To get a comparision with what might happen elsewhere, let's turn to the land reform movement in Venezuela, from the latest Le Monde: http://mondediplo.com/2003/10/07venezuela

"Venezuela’s (capitalist) opposition particularly loathes the crucial agricultural reforms of President Hugo Chávez, which have begun to return parts of enormous, barely used land-holdings to poor landless peasants and to encourage them to grow their own food and build working communities."
 
Ah yes.. land reform. However it seldom works without property rights, and ownership is meaningless without the ability ot sell, and that in turn, allows for accumulation of land in the hands of a centralized source, such as corporations or rich individuals.

Land reform on the surface is simple, just hand it out, but in practice ( as we see in Zimbabwe ) it's a messy affair. Who get's what land, and how much? If you don't own the land, what is your responsibility to it?

I certainly don't dispute the need for reform where there are past injustices which in the developing world are all too common, however the reform must be effective, and simply saying 'go take it' typically is not.

As for local markets, well yes nothing beats freshly grown produce as opposed to stuff picked halfway around the world and ripened in shipment. But, if i was limited to local produce, my choices would reduce drastically, and during the winter/spring, would be next to nil. I'm quite fond of my south american grown produce of fruits in the winter. There is only so much washington state apples I can consume, and even then, washington state is some 3000 mile away, not exactly local.

The problem here is that I do not pay the full price for my imported produce as it is often subsidized for export by governments, and the fuel used for shipment does not include the external costs ( pollution, roads, etc ) that should be added on by a responsible government. Alas, the consumer's ( and voter's ) desire for mango's when it snows trumps all.
 
Sure, and I wouldn't argue with many of the things you've said above. I haven't really thought this stuff through in relation to land reform as such. I was rather, using Venezuela as a topical example of capitalism being hostile to a democratic food security movement, in this case to the extent of jack-booted repression.

You make an especially interesting point when you point out the role of tax-funded bureaucracy in, I'm thinking that you might want to say, maybe 'disguising market signals'? Remember though, from where I'm sitting, reducing the global expenditure of non-renewable resources required to feed each human (while not increasing population) is the point. A choice between nasty chemical-loaded supermarket veg and tasty organic veg is nice, but not starving to death is so much nicer. May I suggest that we focus on the relevant effects for sustainability. By growing food near where it's consumed, the main benefit, from my point of view, is that it uses less energy.

The secondary effects are interesting though. In Cuba, the result is that state bureaucracy is eliminated from the food chain, in at least some cases. In the UK, the likely result of an equivalent movement would be that supermarket chains, agribiz and a whole load of petrochemical industry stuff would be eliminated. What government is supporting here is a vast multi-node system, some of which looks uneconomic to you. It looks unsustainable to me, and while my reasons are different, the proposed solution may overlap in odd cases, like a market in local food. You like it, because the state gets out of the way, I like it because this model loses many unsustainable resource overheads on the transaction . This looks to me like capitalism (and to be fair, its paid stooge, the apparatus of the state) getting out of the way.

If your food is sustainably grown, it almost has to be local for the most part (obviously trade would still be required for some items, but subsistance and many treats can be grown locally almost anyplace if you put your mind to it.) This is unavoidable because of the large transport energy costs of doing things otherwise. It's also almost certainly organic, because growing it any other way means borrowing lots of money from a bank, to give to the petrochemical industry, to pour straight through your soil into the water table, hoping some of it will do some good. You'll get slightly bigger crops than the organic guy up the road, but he'll get a better price for his and he doesn't have to buy X thousand pounds worth of petrochemical industry products each year to keep his stuff growing and or to keep pests from destroying it.

From my point of view these are nice accidental properties of sustainable food. Other properties of sustainable food are that it's more labour intensive. The optimum size for sustainable farming is a handful of acres worked intensively by a a couple of handfuls of people. I've studied the work of academics and architects who've tried to figure all this stuff out in detail. A vaguely consistent picture emerges. Lots more communities, lower population density. The reason for this is that you need to really spread both people and farming out, to shorten the distance between them. So you might get several dozen people farming to provide for say a thousand people, but they'd all need to live in the same 'neighbourhood' of a couple of hundred hectares. This being the case, they'll also tend to share infrastucture that makes sense at that scale. E.G. most of their nutrient recyling stuff, the windmill and inverters, wetpark for water treatment, along with stuff like local shops, local clinic, primary schooling, child minding, tools, library etc. This isn't a model shaped by economic efficiency, as I would define it. This model isn't optimised for commercial profit, but rather it's optimised for sustainability. It's a separate argument to say that you can't have one without the other, or that they are the same thing. I rather think they might conflict, at least some of the time.

In few internal affairs of such a community, does it make sense either for the state or corporations to involve themselves. They could both have an enabling role to play, because you need a vast enterprise to make e.g. computer technology, photovoltaics or decent batteries, although you might want to try to get along without these things, I wouldn't fancy it personally. You would also need some regulatory changes to let this happen I expect, not least withdrawing artificial support to unsustainable farming. This doesn't mean that they have any reason I can see to profit from or otherwise mess with the internal transactions of those thousand or so people. Which has interesting social implications.

You'll notice that most of this stuff also tends to be relatively low capital investment, compared to a 5000 ha industrial farm and all that has to happen to get its produce onto your table. This almost automatically means that it's easier to remove from the transaction; inflexible state bureaucracy (if you're Cuba) or a bunch of major corporations with some equally inflexible (unless you're a corporation) bureaucracies in their pocket (if you're the UK). As you say, most farmers will grow what they can sell. In this scenario they can find out what this is easily by asking their near neighbours. The model that's referenced below has a calculation showing producer costs going up 50% but with all the various industrial capitalist stuff taken out, i.e. the food is both local and organic, the farmer is making around x4 profits.

.Page 19 (warning PDF file)
 
Of course, the trouble with the model proposed above, lots of smallish, quasi-independent communities, well-organised to facilitate sustainability and with minimised dependence on any wider infrastructure, is that they have an inside and an outside.

Inside, all is reasonably well. Outside, especially in the immediate environment, all had better be approximately as well also, or you can predict attempts at expropriation, either direct, e.g. theft, or via government facilitated corporate expropriation of some kind.

On a global scale, we're back to the population problem. We have about 6 billion people right now with numbers increasing fast, especially where no social safety net exists, i.e. in most developing countries. The most plausible looking sustainability calculations I'm familiar with, say that the planet could support around 1-2 Billion with roughly an 'EU-normal' standard of living, but based on some form of sustainability organisation like that described above, or rather less than 1 Billion living an american-standard way of life, if this could indeed exist at all sustainably.

Any larger sustainable population number, tends to make some pretty nasty looking assumptions about living standards. Above 2 Billion, you start having real problems in simultaneously growing food and generating enough energy sustainably, because you're running out of land for crops you can turn into ethanol or to set up photovoltaics sites etc. Here are some sample numbers from Pimentel The calculations to arrive at these numbers are available in Pimentels academic papers and I'll dig out links if anyone really wants to read them.

"Assuming that 0.5 hectare per capita is necessary for an adequate food supply, and assuming that soil conservation programs were implemented to counteract erosion, it would be possible to sustain a global population of approximately 3 billion.

Alternatively, with a self-sustaining renewable energy system producing 200 quads of energy per year and providing each person with 5000 liters (1300 gallons) of oil-equivalents per year (half the current US consumption, but an increase for most people in the world), a population of 1-2 billion could be supported in relative prosperity. This adjustment could be made over a century or more."

So, while the ruralisation model described above tells how a minimum of 1-2 billion (and maybe a few more if you really went for it instead of mucking about with half-measures) people could survive in reasonable comfort, given some major social changes, it has nothing to say about what's happening to the remainder.

Nor does this model have much to say about what corporations and all their pet governments are doing while this is happening.

Achieving sustainability at around the 2 billion mark, involves taking a whole bunch of energy-sucking and fundamentally unsustainable steps out of our food chain, but these are key steps from the point of view of various major corporations profits. Sure, anyone selling windmills is fine, but petrochemical and pharmaceutical companies, supermarket chains, industrial food processing companies et al, all stand to lose out big-time here.

My prediction therefore, is that they'd work to protect their profits at all costs. They aren't measuring their performance against anything to do with sustainability, the capitalist model forces them to optimise for profitability and maye also growth, and they will thus tend to use every tool at their command, especially their governments, to prevent their profits on our food disappearing.

Also, it makes a real difference which country you start off in. The US is in relatively good shape in terms of hectares per human and natural resources. The UK is in rather worse shape and many developing countries are in far worse shape, for instance China.
 
Hope you don't think I'm butting in, am interested in China and West African oil. This adds an interesting spin to the US's interest in the Gulf of Guinea, off the coast of West Africa.

According to some West African politicians I have recently met, the US and China are both lining up to secure West African oil. The main attraction of these resources is that the oil is offshore (though deep), which means that rigs can be set up without any of those pesky locals getting uppity. (Though it still didn't stop the surreal situation earlier this year of Nigerians on these rigs going on strike and holding the Brits and Americans hostage).

Earlier this year Sao Tome and Nigeria finally agreed a deal with each other to set up a joint development zone regarding the oil rights of the Gulf of Guinea (at least a few billion barrels of oil) and at the end of last month exploration rights were sold off. For $540m, with $200m (paid upfront) going to Sao Tome (this is big news for Sao Tome, as it is tiny, exporting only $50m last year).

So, you have China looking to secure oil supplies, while US military bases seem to be popping up all over the world just about where the oil is ... Look at central Asia, US military bases between China and the Caspian Sea, proposals for US military base in the Gulf of Guinea ...

So, what's China gonna do?

(for those who are interested in more on oil, a lot of this came up in my research for this piece: http://www.ak13.com/article.php?id=84)
 
and, in a very short response to Nano, you seem to have (as ever) solely focused on government failure and completely ignored market failure (which is just as prevalent as government failure).

I think the simple, and rather obvious, point is that there is no simple answer, market ideology tends to assume perfect information, rational actors etc, whereas statist ideology does much the same. They both fall down in the environment that matters most: reality.

The dialectic of governments versus markets is a false choice. There can be no markets without states. Instead, the state holds the ring for free markets to exist - look at the SEC's role in the US economy. Indeed, if one looks at pro-marketeers, they are not arguing for no government, instead they are arguing for a different form of government. This is neatly summed up in the title of Andrew Gamble's book on Thatcher: "Strong State; Free Markets".

So instead of a fundamentally meaningless debate about "free markets" (which is at heart also a meaningless term), we should instead be looking at political economy and accept that the separation of politics and economics is false, though it has been much propagated by lazy academics and pro-state or pro-market fundamentalists.

edited to add: apologies for deviation/rant.
 
Originally posted by freke
So instead of a fundamentally meaningless debate about "free markets" (which is at heart also a meaningless term), we should instead be looking at political economy and accept that the separation of politics and economics is false, though it has been much propagated by lazy academics and pro-state or pro-market fundamentalists.

edited to add: apologies for deviation/rant.
I second this rant. Good posts.
 
Originally posted by freke
and, in a very short response to Nano, you seem to have (as ever) solely focused on government failure and completely ignored market failure (which is just as prevalent as government failure).

nonsense, to quote myself:

The problem here is that I do not pay the full price for my imported produce as it is often subsidized for export by governments, and the fuel used for shipment does not include the external costs ( pollution, roads, etc ) that should be added on by a responsible government.

I fully appreciate the presence of market failures, and clearly indicate i think this should be corrected by government intervention with taxes. My complaint of government is not that it is present, but that it's actions are self-defeating.

Interesting and apocalyptic posting as always bernie. I can't get your link to work, but your quotes give me an idea of the argument put forward. If the data proves to be true, we are in for tough times ahead as demographic trends clearly show a rapid increase from rural to urban living, especially in developing nations.

I guess I take issue with two points, first is the single focus on food production. Of course food has a special place being that we need to consume it to survive, but assuming your projections to not push us into the stone age, future civilizations will still consume a vast array of goods besides potatoes. By dividing up human populations into small communities, the food may be able to purchased locally, but everything else will not. Telephones, computers, microchips, paper, shoes, tires, ... everything else will have to be shipped in. So the question is, what is more energy efficient? Bringing the peeps to the food, or bringing everything else to the peeps in the cities?

The second point is your distaste for corporation's thirst for profit. How their desire for profit will prevent oil wells from running dry is beyond me. They understand physical limitations just as we do. Do you not think that when oil reaches +100$/barrel that corporations will not be jumping over themselves to manufacture windmills?

oh wait.. they already are.
 
Im still here!

The problem is that oil corporations want $100 per barrell. It makes more profits and it allows them to develop smaller fields, which they already own, which are currently `uneconomic`. So the corps can filter out oil as they see fit, commanding the best price they can. Remember at a time of global uncertainty, war and recession they have made record profits...it may be shit for `us` but its making hay time for the oil corps...

At the same time they want to monopolise any future energy sources, none of which seem very likely to work in the short to medium term, there are no bridge fuels.

But still all this stuff about markets is a geo-strategic game. Thats all well and good. But who is going to replace Chinas motorbiikes? Indias trains? Africas cars? No one. For western countries ok maybe...just possibly some ordinary people will get help to maintain their lives, maybe. But the majority of the worlds population are going to be hammered by any major jump in oil prices...

It never ceases to confuse me that this subject is talked about so flippantly, even by the guys who say its all going tits up. But the reality is that billions of the worlds most vulnerable people are going to see their lives at risk...not some geo-strategic markets vs non-markets debate but people with no heating fuel dying...people with no transport dying...facilities closing because of cost, it will all start at the most vulnerable end of the market, the super poor on less than $200 a year, thats half the population of the planet...
 
Nano, this is one of those debates we could have ad infinitum, but I do think your references to "government" smack of the straw man. Sometimes the government you imagine seems to be this placid, interfering monster always mucking up the purity and efficiency of the glorious markets. Though feel free to prove wrong.

"So the question that needs to be asked, in your scenario, is how do we best mitigate the horrors of the inevitable? I don't think it would come as much of a surprise if I were to respond with markets of course.

why? economics!

Attempts to collectively ( ie: central planning, the seductive choice ) produce calories back-fires enormously ..."

There are two problems relying on the market to solve such long-term and socially important issues, one is that the market responds only to short-term price signals, and secondly what is important in this system is massively skewed towards those who have wealth, not those without.

The interests of the poor are simply not represented in a market system because they are poor. Why should price-sensitive markets give a fuck about the interests of people without money? Instead, markets fetishise the demands of those with money, for the rather obvious reason that they'll pay.

Neoliberalism denies power indifference by assuming that all market participants act on an equal basis, whereas reality (political economy) shows us this is not the case, in fact, market power is closely correlated with economic power (look at how the Clinton administration ensured that the first draft of globalisation's rules would follow US standards, as an example).

There is an institution that people have invented to address these long-term problems, one that is - in theory - accountable and run for their benefit. It is called "the state". We should look at appropriate state-level solutions to such long-term problems, because that's what it's there for. The markets have no interest in long-term solutions to social problems, and if they managed to solve these things, then that would either be by complete accident or because of state regulation.
 
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