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Peak Oil (was "petroleum geologist explains US war policy")

zceb90 said:
For the sake of clarity here's the section of my earlier post referred to: Given that Texas is still seeing a sizeable 'tail of production' today (and will for some years into the future), 1930 is 76 years ago and overall depletion at the time was probably in the order of 10% the East Texas discovery still remains 'relatively early in the life of the oil province'.

Oil was first discovered in Texas in 1866. According to you (post 1256), production peaked in Texas in 1973. So from first find (1866) to production peak (1973) = 107 years. The Woodbine Sands giant oilfield was found in 1930, or 64 years after oil was first found in the province, or about 60 percent of the way through, using the production peak date that you very kindly provided.

So once again, your assertion that "this discovery ... is a good example of oilfield kings and queens being discovered relatively early during the life of the oil province," is plainly false - not withstanding all of your recently added caveats.
 
Crispy said:
I would say the same about your love for abiotic oil.

Of course you would. But you would be wrong, because my understanding of the natural process of oil generation is based on hard science and not on an extremely dubious hypothesis that has been comprehensively falsified.
 
zceb90 said:
The above statement was made by Chris Skrebowski, not Robert Hirsch. I've not re-read the ASPO blog which I understand the info came from but if it does credit Robert Hirsch with this statement it's in error.

Thanks for the clarification. I add Skrebowski to the list of Malthusian nutjobs that are to be ignored.
 
bigfish said:
I would say it's because you're trying to flog religion disguised as science.
I thought I was the scientist... are you a scientist? I was at the ASPO conference in Italy this month and certainly the majority of ASPO are scientists.

Your arguments are the ones that seem to be faith based, so if anyone can be accused of flogging religion it's you and your ludicrous belief "the world will ever run out of hydrocarbon fuels".
 
clv101 said:
I thought I was the scientist... are you a scientist? I was at the ASPO conference in Italy this month and certainly the majority of ASPO are scientists.

Your arguments are the ones that seem to be faith based, so if anyone can be accused of flogging religion it's you and your ludicrous belief "the world will ever run out of hydrocarbon fuels".


While I havent read all of this thread it seems to me (and I'm a scientist too!) that this is correct: 'the world will never run out of hydrocarbon fuels'

THis is because to take the last drop of oil would be prohibitively expensive.

People have been saying that oil would run out for decades. What seems to happen is that we get better at extracting it.

For example, there is a huge amount of oil in Canada, but most of it isnt in large, pure lakes but all mixed up with mud and stuff.

At the moment it would take way too much money to extract ... but presumably this will not always be true.

For what its worth, IMO the main reason for the west to reduce its consumption of oil, is that importing it from the middle east seems to have an extremely negative effect on the world.
 
angry bob said:
While I havent read all of this thread it seems to me (and I'm a scientist too!) that this is correct: 'the world will never run out of hydrocarbon fuels'

THis is because to take the last drop of oil would be prohibitively expensive.

People have been saying that oil would run out for decades. What seems to happen is that we get better at extracting it.

For example, there is a huge amount of oil in Canada, but most of it isnt in large, pure lakes but all mixed up with mud and stuff.

At the moment it would take way too much money to extract ... but presumably this will not always be true.

The key thing is that it takes too much energy to extract. Current tar sands extraction requires massive amounts of natural gas to 'cook' the decent volatiles out of the tar. You don't get much more energy out than you put in.

And no, we will never 'run out' of oil, the production curve will tend towards zero but never reach it. The key thing is how fast you can pull it out of the ground. And when that figure (barrels per day) starts to fall, we will have passed peak oil and things will start to get difficult.
 
Crispy said:
The key thing is that it takes too much energy to extract. Current tar sands extraction requires massive amounts of natural gas to 'cook' the decent volatiles out of the tar. You don't get much more energy out than you put in.

Right ... but as technology improves it seems quite possible that extraction will become more feasable, i.e. it will be able to be done with less energy

And no, we will never 'run out' of oil, the production curve will tend towards zero but never reach it. The key thing is how fast you can pull it out of the ground. And when that figure (barrels per day) starts to fall, we will have passed peak oil and things will start to get difficult.

I'm not too worried about running out. As I see it, as the 'barrels per day' figure starts to fall, the price will increase thus making alternative fuels much more economically viable.

So what we'll see is a gradual and relatively painless transition. Or am I placing too much faith in global capitalism??
 
Quite possibly. The thing is, even when you add them up, the alternatives just don't match oil for energy density and ease of use. Plus, they have to be developed and deployed at rate greater than the rate of depletion of oil pump rate. And they have distribution and usage patterns that are quite different. Views vary, but capitalism will either shudder and crack like the great depression (but oil prices will not come back down) or it will struggle on through with careful management. Or (the real bad case) it'll all go to shit and we're in for global anarchy. Of course there are alternatives, but not ones that powerful people find appealing.

As for the energy involved in the tar sands, that's a very hard obstacle to get round. Basicly, the tar sands are oil millions of years too early. The extraction process is essentially trying to fit millions of years of compression and heat into an indutrial cycle. Unless someone can enlighten me, I don't see a way of doing this in an efficient manner.
 
Crispy said:
Quite possibly. The thing is, even when you add them up, the alternatives just don't match oil for energy density and ease of use.

I thought 'bio-fuel' or whatever it is that's made from plants was a plausible replacement? Perhaps too much land required to grow sufficient crops?

As for the energy involved in the tar sands, that's a very hard obstacle to get round. Basicly, the tar sands are oil millions of years too early. The extraction process is essentially trying to fit millions of years of compression and heat into an indutrial cycle. Unless someone can enlighten me, I don't see a way of doing this in an efficient manner.

There's no way at the moment ... but given the potential for profit it seems quite likely that technology will find a way.
 
angry bob said:
While I havent read all of this thread it seems to me (and I'm a scientist too!) that this is correct: 'the world will never run out of hydrocarbon fuels'.
Ah yeah, clearly we'll never run out as in not any left. It's a semantics problem more than anything, I think the extraction rate will soon peak then decline indefinitely, Bigfish doesn't.
 
angry bob said:
Right ... but as technology improves it seems quite possible that extraction will become more feasable, i.e. it will be able to be done with less energy

That is certainly happening AB. But what is also happening is our scientific understanding of the subterranean nature of Earth and of other planets is also improving. The abyssal theory of hydrocarbon generation was developed in the Former Soviet Union during the 1950's and 60's. I've already posted up a good many links to supporting papers back down the thread, but here are a few sample quotes from a number of eminent scientists (some of them western) to give you a flavour:


In 1956 Academician Professor Vladimir B. Porfir’yev, senior petroleum exploration geologist for the U.S.S.R., told the All-Union Conference on Petroleum and Petroleum Geology, Moscow that: The overwhelming preponderance of geological evidence compels the conclusion that crude oil and natural petroleum gas have no intrinsic connection with biological matter originating near the surface of the Earth.* They are primordial materials which have been erupted from great depths.”


In 1963 Nobel Laureate and member of the Royal Society, Sir Robert Robinson, made detailed studies of natural petroleum and concluded: Actually it cannot be too strongly emphasized that petroleum does not present the composition picture expected from modified biogenic products, and all the arguments from the constituents of ancient oils fit equally well, or better, with the conception of a primordial hydrocarbon mixture to which bio-products have been added. Mendeleyev, who discovered the Periodic table, said more or less the same thing in 1870. Many of Robinson's papers incidentally have never seen the light of day. They are held under lock and key by the oil giant Shell with whom Robinson was associated until his death.


In 1968 Professor Emmanuil B. Chekaliuk, informed the All-Union Conference on Petroleum and Petroleum Geology in Moscow that: Statistical thermodynamic analysis has established clearly that hydrocarbon molecules which comprise petroleum require very high pressures for their spontaneous formation, comparable to the pressures required for the same of diamond.* In that sense, hydrocarbon molecules are the high-pressure polymorphs of the reduced carbon system as is diamond of elemental carbon.* Any notion which might suggest that hydrocarbon molecules spontaneously evolve in the regimes of temperature and pressure characterized by the near-surface of the Earth, which are the regimes of methane creation and hydrocarbon destruction, does not even deserve consideration.”


In 1982 British astronomer and cosmologist*Fred Hoyle said: The suggestion that petroleum might have arisen from some transformation of squashed fish or biological detritus is surely the silliest notion to have been entertained by substantial numbers of persons over an extended period of time.


The French scientist and Nobel nominee, C. Louis Kervran, also proposed a revolutionary theory for the genesis of coal and oil:

Coal comes from schists, fabricated in situ, by high compression that produced the reactions: Si ® C + O. If O could not escape, and was compressed as well, one would have O + O ® S, from which one gets sulfurous coals. If there was no deformation, the coal remains mixed with argil to produce ampelite.

The presence of carbon in metamorphic and silicate rocks, formed long before there was any vegetation on Earth, is a clear demontration:

Graphite cannot be of vegetal origin, in which case another origin must be found for it, and I propose the silicium of these Archaean rocks. As for diamonds... here, too, one observes the presence of silicates, thus of silicon... In this way one can explain why all coal deposits contain silicon (up to 20%, or even 40%, and more) which form 'ashes'. The great amounts of silicon might be an indication that the transmutation from Si to C + O was imperfect, incomplete.

Kervran claimed that petroleum was not formed from flesh or plants, but from the reaction Mg ® C + C at great depth. If water is present, the hydrogen combines with carbon, and the oxygen forms sulfur (O + O ® S), giving sulfurous oil. The Mg can come from a pocket of saline water when Na + H ® Mg. Otherwise, Mg also can come from Ca or from adjacent layers of dolomitic rock. Oil deposits in the Sahara have been found in pre-Carboniferous rocks (Devonian and Cambrian-Ordovician) and in dolomite. Usually there is no communication between layers of petroleum deposits of different composition which are widely separated by hundreds of meters of impermeable rock. Kervran concluded:

The whole problem of prospection should be thought out all over again.


The idea that hydrocarbons are generated inorganically throughout the solar system was one of the penetrating insights that lead astrophysicist Thomas Gold to write his 1998 book, The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil Fuels in which he makes the point:

It would be surprising indeed if the earth had obtained its hydrocarbons only from a source that biology had taken from another carbon-bearing gas – carbon dioxide – which would have been collected from the atmosphere by photo-synthesizing organisms for manufacture into carbohydrates and then somehow reworked by geology into hydrocarbons. All this, while the planetary bodies bereft of surface life would have received their hydrocarbon gifts by purely abiogenic causes.
 
who said:
The great amounts of silicon might be an indication that the transmutation from Si to C + O was imperfect, incomplete.

:eek: :D

In which bigfish demonstrates his "psychotic research" method: conclude that there has been a conspiracy, then dredge up any text at all that appears to overlap in some loose way with the story that there has been a conspiracy, without reference to the world.

If transmutation of elements under conditions obtainable on or in the Earth (not counting nuclear reactors) is being covered up... they might cover anything up! The could'a done it, you know! They covered up the everlasting match, you know! And Marilyn had slept with the lizard that killed Kennedy!!!1!
 
As much as I disagree with bigfish his assertion is right, though I wonder if he think ampelite is part of the petroleum process or whether the complex serpentinite synthesis could have reasonably taken place in earth's history.
 
Sorry folks - had to step away for a few weeks.

However, back to the debate.

BigFish, I've been so amused by some of your postings. I think you intended this to be a riposte to my previous reply. Of course, your post does not contain one shred of evidence that a single drop of oil has been discovered because the area is empty - how can it? I suspect you genuinely do not grasp the point that all you have done is provide (far more comprehensively than I would have had the patience to assemble) evidence of how desperate the situation is becoming (e.g. quote "... considered a rank wildcat because of the very significant distances from any previous exploration wells drilled within the kingdom, and its testing of new hydrocarbon plays. The well is anticipated to take up to four months to drill.".) Do you understand what that signifies for the industry? I suspect not, but then - you are not of this industry.

Regrettably, you don't acknowledge any of the points put to you, which fundamentally undermines any credibility you might claim. You have cited on several occasions the claim that reserves are increasing each year. Yet I have explained in the course of several posts that this is a childishly simple trick we deploy by failing to backdate our revisions data. We maintain internally the true geological projections which show quite clearly that reserves have been falling by over 11 billion barrels a year for over a decade. You are precisely the sort of easily misled chap we pray for whenever we publish data in this form - thank you for doing our work so vigorously for us. Our greatest fear right now is that enough people take the trouble to do the simple math involved and realise that if you are consuming 30 billion barrels a year of oil and discovering 10 billion barrels a year of oil, reserves cannot be increasing! The only thing that is miraculous, as you put it, is that we continue to get away with it.

As for the abyssal theory - some simple questions: Where is it, why aren't our reservoirs recharging, and even if they are recharging - of what use is it if the rate of recharge is significantly less than the rate of offtake?

As for your ludicrous statement "we are running into oil" - this is from Exxon, who are generally believed to understand their business quite well, and who estimate we will have to replace over 80% of all current production by 2015 just to maintain current output. Yet the rate of discovery is falling at over 8% per annum while the rate of consumption is growing at over 1.5% per annum.



I dare you to actually address these points rather ignoring direct contradition of your assertions and hiding behind a smokescreen of quotations from others.
 
bigfish said:
In 1982 British astronomer and cosmologist*Fred Hoyle said: The suggestion that petroleum might have arisen from some transformation of squashed fish or biological detritus is surely the silliest notion to have been entertained by substantial numbers of persons over an extended period of time.
Well, perhaps not. Perhaps the silliest notion to have been entertained is the suggestion that all genes, micro-organisms, eggs and sperm of lower animals arrived on particles from space less than 100um in diameter. This is the Panspermia theory, devised by ... Fred Hoyle.

Hoyle, by the way, is one of the more respectable champions of BigFish's comical theory.
 
Falcon said:
Hoyle, by the way, is one of the more respectable champions of BigFish's comical theory.
Was.



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Falcon said:
... Hoyle, by the way, is one of the more respectable champions of BigFish's comical theory.

What, even more respectable than the internationally renown chemist and Nobel Laureate, Sir Robert Robinson, you mean?
 
Falcon said:
... BigFish, I've been so amused by some of your postings. I think you intended this to be a riposte to my previous reply. Of course, your post does not contain one shred of evidence that a single drop of oil has been discovered because the area is empty - how can it?

I guess this image of the Shaybah production facility, located "right in the heart" of the Empty Quarter, must be a mirage.

CU_Article_1_004_95.jpg

The largest oilfield development of the past twenty years, Shaybah, which came on stream in 2002, is capable of pumping half a million barrels of light sweet crude a day. The field is located right in the heart of the Rub Al-Khali desert. Additionally, the South Rub al-Khali consortium (Royal Dutch/Shell, Total and Saudi Aramco) is currently engaged in exploration work in Blocks 5-9 and 82-85 of the Shaybah and Kidan areas of the Empty Quarter, while Russia's Lukoil won a tender in 2004 to explore and operate in Block A. Also China's Sinopec won a tender for gas exploration and production in Block B, while an Eni-Repsol consortium was granted a license to operate in Block C.

I can only suppose that none of the oil companies mentioned above got your memo.


I suspect you genuinely do not grasp the point that all you have done is provide (far more comprehensively than I would have had the patience to assemble) evidence of how desperate the situation is becoming (e.g. quote "... considered a rank wildcat because of the very significant distances from any previous exploration wells drilled within the kingdom, and its testing of new hydrocarbon plays. The well is anticipated to take up to four months to drill.".) Do you understand what that signifies for the industry? I suspect not, but then - you are not of this industry.

Go tell that to the men who discovered the Shaybah 'wildcat' "right in the heart" of the Empty Quarter.

Regrettably, you don't acknowledge any of the points put to you, which fundamentally undermines any credibility you might claim.

So far, most of your own points appear to be more or less worthless, hence the imperative to present yourself as credible by inversion. (Now where have I seen that before?)


You have cited on several occasions the claim that reserves are increasing each year. Yet I have explained in the course of several posts that this is a childishly simple trick we deploy by failing to backdate our revisions data. We maintain internally the true geological projections which show quite clearly that reserves have been falling by over 11 billion barrels a year for over a decade. You are precisely the sort of easily misled chap we pray for whenever we publish data in this form - thank you for doing our work so vigorously for us. Our greatest fear right now is that enough people take the trouble to do the simple math involved and realise that if you are consuming 30 billion barrels a year of oil and discovering 10 billion barrels a year of oil, reserves cannot be increasing! The only thing that is miraculous, as you put it, is that we continue to get away with it.

"Proven reserves represent nothing more than the working stock of the oil industry. Thus, proven reserves can only be defined as a function of the demand for oil, given the fact that proving it is so expensive that no one—neither companies nor governments—has any incentive to undertake the task merely to show that the world, or a particular part of it, is oil rich. Oil is sought—and found—because oil companies and state entities have to make long term investment and infrastructure plans to produce, transport, refine and market the oil they expect to sell and thus, must have a firm idea as to where their crude oil supplies are to come from over the next ten years. Moreover, given their expectation, based on their experience over the period since 1945, that the demand for oil will build up year by year, they know that the reserves available to them on which to justify such long term investment must be equal to about 15 times the current annual level of consumption. This, in theory, sets what might be termed the overall optimum level of proven reserves." (Odell)

Current world consumption = approx. 30 billion barrels p.a.

30 billion x 15 = 450 billion barrels.

Proven reserves = 1,280 billion/450 billion = 2.84

So nearly 3 times the overall optimum level of reserves needed by the hydrocarbon industry to function properly, all things being equal.


As for the abyssal theory - some simple questions: Where is it...

“There are presently more than 80 oil and gas fields in the Caspian district alone which were explored and developed by applying the perspective of the modern theory and which produce from the crystalline basement rock (Krayushkin, Chebanenko et al. 1994). Similarly, such exploration in the western Siberia cratonic-rift sedimentary basin has developed 90 petroleum fields of which 80 produce either partly or entirely from the crystalline basement. The exploration and discoveries of the 11 major and 1 giant fields on the northern flank of the Dneiper-Donets basin have already been noted. There are presently deep drilling exploration projects under way in Azerbaijan, Tatarstan, and Asian Siberia directed to testing potential oil and gas reservoirs in the crystalline basement.”

http://www.gasresources.net/energy_resources.htm

When fully operational, BP's new deep-water Thunderhorse rig, operating in the Gulf of Mexico region, is set to target oil and gas plays at depths up to 26,000 feet, even though the fossil domain ends at around 16,000 feet!

It's weird how all that fossilized squashed fish found its way down to 26,000 feet, don't you think?

http://www.offshore-technology.com/projects/crazy_horse/
PDF http://www.raeng.org.uk/events/pdf/Graham_McNeillie.pdf

...why aren't our reservoirs recharging, and even if they are recharging - of what use is it if the rate of recharge is significantly less than the rate of offtake?

That's a very BIG if -bearing in mind the enormous size of the mantle and the deep complex of laterally inclined faults networking through the geology up to the surface.

As for your ludicrous statement "we are running into oil"...

The "running into oil" statement belongs, originally, to Peter Odell. Unlike you, Professor Odell really is a world authority on hydrocarbon economy and has published many widely read books and papers on the subject. You, on the other hand, are merely an abstract identity, posturing as an oil industry specialist, posting away on a Brixton bulletin board who, as far as I am aware, hasn't published anything at all.


...this is from Exxon, who are generally believed to understand their business quite well, and who estimate we will have to replace over 80% of all current production by 2015 just to maintain current output. Yet the rate of discovery is falling at over 8% per annum while the rate of consumption is growing at over 1.5% per annum.

I dare you to actually address these points rather ignoring direct contradition of your assertions and hiding behind a smokescreen of quotations from others.

Clearly, at 1.28 trillion barrels, the world is not lacking in sufficient proven oil reserves, even though Exxon and other western oil companies may well be. What I think you should bear in mind here, is that the majority of proven reserves are located in the Middle East, where they fall under the domain and control of the various nationalized state oil companies in that region.

Therefore, the question should really be: what can Exxon et al do to get their hands on them?

Any idea?
 
muser said:
As much as I disagree with bigfish his assertion is right, though I wonder if he think ampelite is part of the petroleum process or whether the complex serpentinite synthesis could have reasonably taken place in earth's history.

I think that it is part and parcel of the petroleum process. It appears to be synthesized when pressurized liquified hydrocarbons are forced into contact with argil (clay) which then cool and solidify into coal, the ampelite forming as a kind of outer coating. Ampelite also dissolves completely when placed in oil.
 
Thanks Bigfish -

The fundamental point of peak oil is not that oil is going to "run out", or "stop being found". It is that new oil is not going to be discovered and developed as quickly as existing reserves of oil deplete. "Not a drop" was a careless, jet-lag induced expression which I feel comfortable to retract and substitute with "Only a drop".

Some perspective: By your own admission, Shaybah is "the largest oilfield development of the past twenty years". Yet it is only capable of delivering 500,000 b/d. For example, that's less than half of this year's 1.4% growth in world demand. Next year, demand will grow another 1.4%. The following year, demand will grow another 1.4%. If demand is not met, the world economy will crash. Yet of the 16.6 mn b/d of capacity due to come onstream by 2010, the next largest development is only 300,000 b/d, while underlying production is anticipated to fall by 18 mn b/d through depletion.

Combined with all other developments, even without depletion, the discovery and development rate is not keeping pace with demand.

Meanwhile, the largest oil field in the world, Ghawar, produces 4.5 mn b/d ... having declined from 5.7 mn b/d at its peak. The next largest - Cantarell in Mexico, produced nearly 2 mn b/d ... before it entered terminal decline last year. Total world stock is now declining at 5-8% per year (6% in Saudi, 7% in Iran).

So the challenge is to bring five Shaybahs onstream every year just to stand still, and then a couple more to meet growth and prevent the global economy stalling. The question is - is the Empty Quarter capable of making a material contribution to that challenge?

Your growing list of desperate explorers remains conspicuously free of evidence that anything is being found in sufficient volumnes. That is entirely to be expected - Oil Peak in the US, combined with high oil prices, generated an identical flurry of fruitless exploration activity. Some oil was discovered, of course, but in aggregate was (with the exception of the minor blips contributed by Alaska and GoM) sufficient only to hold the depletion rate to the theoretical logistics curve rate. Even if any significant volumes are discovered, it would take ten years to develop them and bring them to market in a mature area, and much longer in the Empty Quarter due to the distance from infrastructure and markets, meaning the area makes no contribution to mitigating the risk of Peak in the next 10 years.

In fact, your list is evidence, not of how attractive the Empty Quarter is, but of just how poor the next best alternatives are. "The largest oilfield development of the past twenty years" - perhaps you are starting to grasp the magnitude of the challenge involved?

most of your own points appear to be more or less worthless
I can believe that - if you don't understand the subject, there is much that will appear worthless to you. For my part, I do understand your points fully, having championed them myself for much of my working life, and don't find your points worthless at all - they are (with the inexcusable exception of abyssal theory, for which I can offer you no olive branch) entirely plausible conclusions that can legitimately be drawn from an incomplete understanding of the subject and a skewed data set, and in which you are being led by the nose by powerful vested interests.

It's weird how all that fossilized squashed fish found its way down to 26,000 feet, don't you think?
As a professional geologist? No. Much of geology appears weird to those who have not studied it - if you want to participate in this debate, deal with it.

Professor Odell really is a world authority on hydrocarbon economy
Quite so. Unfortunately, even hydrocarbon economists concede that economic theory doesn't handle the extraction of finite resources very well. In particular, it can't differentiate between the properties of the abstract financial system, which can and must exist through a process of indefinite geometric expansion, and the properties of the underlying physical matter/energy system, which cannot. The resulting intellectual disconnect leads the likes of Odell into remarkable non-sequiturs, such as the notion of energy as a fungible, priced commodity (which, behind closed doors in our industry, are as notorious as they are embarrassing).

His mistaken analogy of manufacturing industry "working stock" representing extractive industry "reserves" is something of a classic. In manufacturing industries, "working stock" is constrained only by capital and, given an adequate supply of resource (which can generally be assumed to be effectively infinite) is indeed a function of demand. In extractive finite resource industries, reserves are constrained both by capital AND resource. Thus the statement "proven reserves can only be defined as a function of the demand for oil" is simply untrue: it implies that resource is infinite. Proven reserves have been indistinguishable from infinite-acting while there has been sufficient spare resource, which is to say for the entire pre-Peak period of the industry, which has misled Odell and others into assuming they are infinite acting. Although you may not realise it, that is why the abyssal theory is so important to you: it is the only way to make a finite resource appear infinite-acting in economic theory.

they know that the reserves available to them on which to justify such long term investment must be equal to about 15 times the current annual level of consumption
Odell's "infinite-acting" assumption also failed fatally to account for how the the rate at which reserves can be converted into production deteriorates exponentially over time. As an economist rather than a geologist, Odell was unaware that the last units of resource to be exploited require orders of magnitude more investment than the first units of resource to maintain constant conversion rate, eventually exceeding capital and human constraints (unlike, say, in the sportwear apparel manufacturing industry). After the resource ceases to be infinite-acting (after around 50% has been consumed), there is no "optimum" level of proven reserves capable of ensuring a desired offtake rate. (The industry joke is that, for an encore, Odell presented a theorem that proved, from the optimum flight parameters enjoyed by a 747 immediately prior to flying into a mountain, the probability of collision was zero! A delicious morsel of delusional economics - thank you.)

Clearly, at 1.28 trillion barrels, the world is not lacking in sufficient proven oil reserves
Another example of the basic inability to distinguish between the volume of reserve, and the diminishing achievable rate of development of that volume in relation to demand.

What to do? I'd say: start investing as though Peak Oil were a reality and reconfigure U.S. military strategy to permit the simultaneous deployment of massive force into the last three petroleum basins. Which is to say - exactly what is being done.

What we have, therefore, is a two-pronged strategy that effectively governs U.S. policy toward much of the world. One arm of this strategy is aimed at securing more oil from the rest of the world; the other is aimed at enhancing America’s capacity to intervene in exactly such locales. And while these two objectives have arisen from different sets of concerns, one energy-driven and the other security-driven, they have merged into a single, integrated design for American world dominance in the 21st Century. And it is this combination of strategies, more than anything else, that will govern America’s international behavior in the decades ahead.
 
bigfish said:
The "running into oil" statement belongs, originally, to Peter Odell. Unlike you, Professor Odell really is a world authority on hydrocarbon economy and has published many widely read books and papers on the subject.
If Peter Odell really has such a good handle on where all this extra oil is located why has 'big oil' not recruited him with a view to helping reverse the downward discovery trend which has now persisted for 42 years? I rather suspect it's another case of 'economists knowing rather more about the business of finding oil than geologists' in which case the 'extra oil' is the kind which somehow doesn't find it's way into the world's storage tanks.

Just this past week ExxonMobil who, as Falcon points out above, know rather a lot about the oil business have announced yet another boost to their stock buyback program:
The company, the world's largest by market capitalization, also said it planned to increase its already hefty stock buyback program to $7 billion in the third quarter to make use of its ballooning hoard of cash.
As I've pointed out to this forum in the past every billion dollars directed to stock buybacks means less funds for exploration and addressing the supply side bottlenecks (which surely would need to be addressed even if OPEC state oil companies were the actual source of additional crude supplies). On this basis it would appear that XOM don't consider enough extra supply will be forthcoming to boost, for example, refining capacity in OECD nations.
 
BP has been engaged in a huge stock buyback programme for the last two years. It has committed to return all profit to its shareholders above that which it would have earned had the oil price been $40. It simply has insufficient exploration and development opportunities of acceptable risk profiles to permit any other use for the cash.
 
Useful update on Oil Security and Iraq from Prof Rogers of ORG.
Although Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates are both major oil producers, it is the trio of Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia that are seen from Washington as the key oil states of the region, yet all three are problematic. Saudi Arabia may be regarded as stable, yet there is an unease in Washington which stems from the Kingdom's refusal to allow US military bases, coupled with a concern over the stability of the Kingdom and its commitment to fighting the global war on terror. Many of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi nationals, the al-Qaida movement has drawn much financial support from Saudi sources and there is a sense in which, from Washington's standpoint, the Saudi authorities have simply not been sufficiently diligent in their anti-al-Qaida operations.

Meanwhile, across the Gulf, Iran remains rigorously determined to go its own way, including frankly maverick statements from President Ahmadinejad, and may be wanting to develop its own nuclear forces which would make any future US intervention against the regime or its successors deeply problematic. If we add to this an unstable Iraq that could potentially fall under Iranian influence or even become a failing state to the extent that al-Qaida could use it as a base, and we have a combination that is simply not acceptable to Washington.

Given the uncertainties in Saudia Arabia and the perceived antagonism from Iran, the one remaining major state in the region that can still be under firm US influence is Iraq. As long as the precarious and antagonistic relationships exist with the Saudis and the Iranians respectively, Iraq remains central to the US policy of safeguarding the Persian Gulf, the timescale being thirty years or more.

It can be readily argued that the instability and insecurity in the Persian Gulf region, coupled with the potentially disastrous impact of carbon emissions on the global climate, both make it highly desirable to move rapidly away from a fossil fuel-based. This would be part of a move away from "control" security towards "sustainable" security, as argued in the recent Oxford Research Group report, Global Responses to Global Threats, but there is little indication that such thinking has permeated into any significant part of the Bush administration. Unless there is such a change, then we should expect the United States to be planning to maintain a large military presence in Iraq for some decades. Indeed, to do otherwise would, from the Washington perspective, be a foreign policy disaster at least as significant as the withdrawal from Vietnam.

Whatever may be said about progress in controlling the Iraq insurgency and the possibility of some troop withdrawals, it is far more sensible to assume that the US is in it for the long-term.
 
Bernie - the analysis is good, but perhaps incomplete on two points summarised in this extract:
It can be readily argued that the instability and insecurity in the Persian Gulf region, coupled with the potentially disastrous impact of carbon emissions on the global climate, both make it highly desirable to move rapidly away from a fossil fuel-based.
[1] The implication of the piece is that the problem is fundamentally political, arising from the increasing dislocation between where oil is produced and where it is consumed. If that were the only factor then you could still argue that diplomatic and commercial solutions would be sufficient to offset the risk of long term U.S. military involvement. In fact, the problem is physical i.e. that the suppliers cannot continue to supply. In that situation there are no diplomatic or commerical solutions and long term U.S. military involvement is inevitable.

[2] While fossil-fuel switch is undoubtedly desirable, it is not achievable. The thinking apparently did permeate as far as Cheney and Rumsfeld, but was dismissed on the grounds that the U.S. has been physically constructed so as to be able to function without fossil fuel.

In combination, the U.S. cannot avoid petroleum dependency and that petroleum dependency cannot be sustained without military force. From my previous quote:
implementation of the Cheney energy plan will also have significant implications for U.S. security policy and for the actual deployment and utilization of American military forces. This is so because most of the countries that are expected to supply the United States with increased petroleum in the years ahead are riven by internal conflicts or harbor strong anti-American sentiments, or both. This means that American efforts to procure additional oil from foreign sources are almost certain to encounter violent disorder and resistance in many key producing areas. And while U.S. officials might prefer to avoid the use of force in such situations, they may conclude that the only way to ensure the continued flow of energy is to guard the oil fields and pipelines with American soldiers.

source
 
Falcon said:
As for the abyssal theory - some simple questions: Where is it...

It's here...

bigfish said:
JF Kenney - “There are presently more than 80 oil and gas fields in the Caspian district alone which were explored and developed by applying the perspective of the modern theory and which produce from the crystalline basement rock (Krayushkin, Chebanenko et al. 1994). Similarly, such exploration in the western Siberia cratonic-rift sedimentary basin has developed 90 petroleum fields of which 80 produce either partly or entirely from the crystalline basement. The exploration and discoveries of the 11 major and 1 giant fields on the northern flank of the Dneiper-Donets basin have already been noted. There are presently deep drilling exploration projects under way in Azerbaijan, Tatarstan, and Asian Siberia directed to testing potential oil and gas reservoirs in the crystalline basement.”

http://www.gasresources.net/energy_resources.htm

Furthermore...

Production from the Precambrian crystalline basement: In addition to these reservoirs in the sedimentary rock, above, the exploration drilling has discovered five reservoirs in the Precambrian crystalline basement rock complex at depths ranging from several meters to 200 meters below the top of the crystalline basement...

The trapping strata for the reservoirs in the Carboniferous period sandstones are shallower shale formations, as is typical for sedimentary reservoirs. The trapping strata for the reservoirs in the Precambrian crystalline basement are impervious, non-fractured, essentially horizontal zones of crystalline rock which alternate with the fractured, uncompacted, bed-like zones of granite and amphibolite...

Following the discovery of these petroleum reservoirs, a series of quite different scientific investigations have been carried out to test the initial assumptions that the oil and gas have entered the reservoir formations from great depth. Those laboratory analyses are described here briefly.

Analysis and correlations of trace element abundances in oil: The oil produced from all reservoirs and depths have been analyzed for correlations of their trace metallic elements. For example the ratios of Ni/V and of either Methane or Nitrogen have been measured. The abundances of the trace metals show a clear correlation and have thereby established that the oil at all levels share a common, deep source, characterized by diffusive separation, regardless of the age, type or circumstance of the particular reservoir rocks.
...
Bacteriological analysis of the oil and the examination for so-called “biological marker” molecules: The oil produced from the reservoirs in the crystalline basement rock of the Dnieper-Donets Basin has been examined particularly closely for the presence of either porphyrin molecules or “biological marker” molecules, the presence of which used to be misconstrued as "evidence" of a supposed biological origin for petroleum. None of the oil contains any such molecules, even at the ppm level. There is also research presently under progress which has established the presence of deep, anaerobic, hydrocarbon metabolizing microbes in the oil from the wells in the uppermost petroliferous zones of the crystalline basement rock in the Dnieper-Donets Basin.

Measurement of elevated abundances of helium: The petroleum from all producing reservoirs manifest elevated abundance of helium. The natural gas and oil from, for example, the Yulyovskoye field contain not less than 180,000,000 m3 of helium. Helium is of deep origin and can be transported significant distances in the Earth's crust only by entrainment in another carrier fluid, typically hydrocarbons or hydrocarbons and carbon dioxide or nitrogen together, by which process it becomes concentrated in the carrier fluid.

These results, taken either individually or together, confirm the scientific conclusions that the oil and natural gas found both in the Precambrian crystalline basement and the sedimentary cover of the Northern Monoclinal Flank of the Dnieper-Donets Basin are of deep, and abiotic, origin.

V. A. Krayushkin, T. I. Tchebanenko, V. P. Klochko, Ye. S. Dvoryanin Institute of Geological Sciences Kiev. J. F. Kenney Russian Academy of Sciences - Joint Institute of The Physics of the Earth, Moscow and Gas Resources Corporation, Houston.

http://gasresources.net/DDBflds2.htm

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, wont you Falcon, but isn't the pre-cambrium crystalline basement known to be composed entirely of inorganic matter?

bigfish said:
When fully operational, BP's new deep-water Thunderhorse rig, operating in the Gulf of Mexico region, is set to target oil and gas plays at depths up to 26,000 feet, even though the fossil domain ends at around 16,000 feet!

http://www.offshore-technology.com/p...s/crazy_horse/
PDF http://www.raeng.org.uk/events/pdf/Graham_McNeillie.pdf

It's weird how all that fossilized squashed fish found its way down to 26,000 feet, don't you think?

Falcon said:
As a professional geologist? No. Geology is weird to those who have not studied it - if you want to participate in this debate, deal with it.

I am dealing with it, Falcon. And what better way to do that than to ask a self-proclaimed professional geologist to explain the geological mechanism(s) by which fossilized squashed fish is supposed to have migrated all the way down to 26,000 feet, given that the fossil record ends at around 16,000 feet?

Do you think you could spare me the patronizing flimflam and provide a rational answer to my question this time. Thanks
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Useful update on Oil Security and Iraq from Prof Rogers of ORG.

From the ORG text:

In order to influence key western governments to obtain an early ceasefire between Israel and the opposing forces of Egypt and Syria, the Arab members of OPEC used oil as a political weapon, combining production cutbacks, embargoes and price increases in a wholly unexpected manner. The immediate effect, in mid-October 1973, was a price increase of over 70%, with this setting in motion an all-time "bull" market that saw oil prices rise by over 400% by the middle of 1974. The global economic impact of this was massive, but it also resulted in a reappraisal of the US security posture in the Gulf...

From an on the record interview given to the Guardian by Shiek Yamani in 2001:

His [Sheik Yamani] voice quickens further when he reminisces about the era of great oil diplomacy in the Seventies and his contemporary, former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger.

At this point he makes an extraordinary claim: 'I am 100 per cent sure that the Americans were behind the increase in the price of oil. The oil companies were in real trouble at that time, they had borrowed a lot of money and they needed a high oil price to save them.'

He says he was convinced of this by the attitude of the Shah of Iran, who in one crucial day in 1974 moved from the Saudi view, that a hike would be dangerous to Opec because it would alienate the US, to advocating higher prices.

'King Faisal sent me to the Shah of Iran, who said: "Why are you against the increase in the price of oil? That is what they want? Ask Henry Kissinger - he is the one who wants a higher price".'

Yamani contends that proof of his long-held belief has recently emerged in the minutes of a secret meeting on a Swedish island, where UK and US officials determined to orchestrate a 400 per cent increase in the oil price.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,421888,00.html

Rather than say why oil resources are not the cause of war, it might be worth addressing the true causes of the present war situation -while bearing in mind what the causes for war have been in the past. When Marx talked about over-production, it was mainly a domestic phenomenon, even though business cycles synchronized across the world. With the growth of capital in the 20th century, overproduction has become both domestic and international. In the 1970s, the world went into a recession - and (as we can see from the ORG briefing paper) fingers are still being pointed at OPEC as the cause. It wasn't. Oil price increases allowed the oil majors to maintain (and even to boost) their profits in the midst of what was going on - mass unemployment etc. The statements made by Sheik Yamani to the Guardian in all likelihood bear out that OPEC was pushed into dramatically hiking oil prices by the United States. But what caused the recession? Overproduction, certainly, but an overproduction whose form was dictated by the way capitalism had developed since World War II. The two "superpowers" had become locked in an arms/space race, thereby giving others the opportunity to push forward on the civil technology front - this is where Germany and Japan stand out. The world was no longer the exclusive domain of America, and what had been seen as American markets (including America's domestic market) were now competing with cheaper imports from other places. The very development trajectory espoused by America has led to America's decline in economic power terms. Since the end of the 1990s another 70's-type recession has loomed. However this time, it's not Japan and Germany throwing the dice - but Asia. China's GDP was something like 17% of America's in 1980. Given the massive growth rates China has experienced since then, today its GDP is 60% the size of America's and is forecast to be the largest economy in the world by 2025. Then, the largest economies in the world will be: 1) China; 2) the United States; 3) Japan; 4) India. Asia will be the world's dominant region in terms of economic size. So much for over-population, concentrated in that part of the world.
 
bigfish said:
Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, wont you Falcon, but isn't the pre-cambrium crystalline basement known to be composed entirely of inorganic matter?
If you insist. There are several mechanisms that readily account for the presence of hydrocarbon in inorganic zones. The drilling mud can be contaminated and mistaken for production oil (Drilling mud is, after all, usually oil based). In the process of drilling through overlying sedimentary rock, oil can be expelled downward so that it appears to come from below. Hydrocarbons can migrate from sedimentary rock (the most likely cause in the notorious Krayushkin example you supply, as there are many sedimentary source rocks in the Dneiper-Donets region).

But the simple fact is, the Russian abiotic oil hypothesis predates the development of modern plate tectoniocs theory. Tectonic movements are now known to be able to radically reshuffle rock strata, leaving younger sedimentary oil- or gas-bearing rock beneath basement rock, leading in some cases to the appearance that oil has its source in Precambrian crystalline basement, when this is not actually the case.

Abiotic oil is an anachronism that serves as an intellectul "snooze button" to rescue the uninquisitive from having to worry about their jobs, their Hummers and their $500,000 four bedroom mortgages.

Here is a reasonably unsensational summary of the position by a guy who is trying hard to be impartial:
The abiotic theory holds that there must therefore be nearly limitless pools of liquid primordial hydrocarbons at great depths on Earth, pools that slowly replenish the reservoirs that conventional oil drillers tap.

Meanwhile, however, the oil companies have used the biotic theory as the practical basis for their successful exploration efforts over the past few decades. If there are in fact vast untapped deep pools of hydrocarbons refilling the reservoirs that oil producers drill into, it appears to make little difference to actual production, as tens of thousands of oil and gas fields around the world are observed to deplete, and refilling (which is indeed very rarely observed) is not occurring at a commercially significant scale or rate except in one minor and controversial instance discussed below.

The abiotic theorists also hold that conventional drillers, constrained by an incorrect theory, ignore many sites where deep, primordial pools of oil accumulate; if only they would drill in the right places, they would discover much more oil than they are finding now. However, the tests of this claim are so far inconclusive: the best-documented "abiotic" test well was a commercial failure.

Thus even if the abiotic theory does eventually prove to be partially or wholly scientifically valid (and that is a rather big "if"), it might have little or no practical consequence in terms of oil depletion and the imminent global oil production peak.

source
I'm therefore no more inclined to discuss it with you than I am to discuss the possibility that the moon landings were simulated in a Los Angeles parking lot, and suggest we move on.

Do you propose just skipping over the rebuttals about Odell, the Empty Quarter, reserves decline and achievable production capacity?
 
Falcon said:
Bernie - the analysis is good, but perhaps incomplete on two points summarised in this extract:

[1] The implication of the piece is that the problem is fundamentally political, arising from the increasing dislocation between where oil is produced and where it is consumed. If that were the only factor then you could still argue that diplomatic and commercial solutions would be sufficient to offset the risk of long term U.S. military involvement. In fact, the problem is physical i.e. that the suppliers cannot continue to supply. In that situation there are no diplomatic or commerical solutions and long term U.S. military involvement is inevitable.

[2] While fossil-fuel switch is undoubtedly desirable, it is not achievable. The thinking apparently did permeate as far as Cheney and Rumsfeld, but was dismissed on the grounds that the U.S. has been physically constructed so as to be able to function without fossil fuel.

In combination, the U.S. cannot avoid petroleum dependency and that petroleum dependency cannot be sustained without military force. From my previous quote:
The article you cite makes some interesting comments on the close connection between Cheney's energy strategy and Rumsfeld's military strategy.
Rather, the Administration’s top objective is the enhancement of America’s "power projection" forces – meaning those forces that can be transported from established bases in the United States and Europe to distant combat zones, and then fight their way into the area or otherwise come to the assistance of a beleaguered ally. Typically, power projection forces are said to include both the ground and air combat units intended for penetration of enemy territory plus the ships and planes used to carry these units into the battle zone. Power projection forces also include long-range bombers and the naval platforms – aircraft carriers, surface combatants, and submarines – used to launch planes or missiles against onshore targets.

It is precisely these sorts of forces that have been accorded top priority in the military plans of the Bush Administration. In his first major speech on U.S. military policy, while still a candidate, Bush declared, "Our forces in the next century must be agile, lethal, readily deployable, and require a minimum of logistical support." In particular, our land forces "must be lighter [and] more lethal"; our naval forces must be able "to destroy targets from great distances"; and our air forces "must be able to strike from across the world with pinpoint accuracy."/47/ These are exactly the sort of weapons that the Bush Administration has sought since assuming office in February 2001, and, as we have seen, these are precisely the sort of weapons that the Department of Defense relied upon when conducting the March/April 2003 invasion of Iraq.

By the beginning of 2003, the White House had succeeded in incorporating many of its basic strategic objectives into formal military doctrine. These objectives stress the steady enhancement of America’s capacity to project military power into areas of turmoil – that is, to strengthen precisely those capabilities that would be used to protect or gain access to overseas sources of petroleum.
same source.

As we're seeing though, while those types of forces are very efficient at spreading suffering and death, they have critical limitations when it comes to holding ground and in maintaining a functional oil industry within conquered territories. In effect, they are a significant additional economic and political cost element that needs to be factored in if you're considering the future of US (and by extension allied) energy supplies.
 
Richard Heinberg in a wider ranging piece on the implications of the current Middle East political situation on the preparations for Peak Oil:
Now the status quo is crumbling—not so much for political reasons (though those are certainly imaginable, given the situations outlined above), but for reasons of geology.

Questions about the real size of Kuwait’s oil reserves have emerged in the Kuwaiti National Assembly, leading the opposition party to call for production cuts. Remarkably, Kuwait appears to be groping toward implementation of the Oil Depletion Protocol, without ever having heard of it. However, from the standpoint of nations that want to keep the oil flowing so the global industrial party can continue, this is bad news.

Even worse news, potentially, comes from Saudi Arabia, where oil flows have shrunk by some 400,000 barrels per day over the past few months, despite astronomic prices. No one knows for sure what is going on. The Saudis themselves say the production cuts are due to lack of demand, but this hardly seems plausible, unless the kingdom is only able to deliver unwanted heavy, sour crude to market—but even in that case, one would expect flows to increase, with a price discount factored in for resource quality.

At the same time, the Saudis are hiring just about every spare drilling rig in the world, resulting in a dramatically falling rig count in the Gulf of Mexico—a place that would otherwise be seeing an increasing count, given the fact that Mexico’s giant Cantarell field is in now in steep decline, with dire implications for the nation’s economy.
The Oil Depletion Protocol is a straightforward proposal that oil importing nations would agree to reduce their imports by an agreed-upon yearly percentage (the World Oil Depletion Rate), while exporting countries would agree to reduce their rate of exports by their national Depletion Rate. While rationally in the category "Why wouldn't you do it that way?", the prospects for its successful implementation are not good.
 
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