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Peak Oil (was "petroleum geologist explains US war policy")

Interesting argument in the first piece about the possibility of major changes in the financial architecture of the oil markets and potential consequences (collapse of dollar, economic chaos etc) I'd been thinking along similar lines, but it's fascinating to see that moves are actually afoot to make this happen.

The next decade or so promises to be interesting.
 
Well, it's hard to judge exactly what will happen, but the story about the Iranians setting up their own oil trading bourse has been reported credibly. e.g. in the Guardian and they do seem to have the intention of trading in euros see e.g. The Hindu Business Line

Of course, if they US does attack Iran is will probably do so on the basis of WMD propaganda, but might find it a tougher nut than a disarmed Iraq was see e.g. Newsweek and the world might be even harder to convince this time.

Another major oil producer that has been making noises about a switch to Euros is Russia see e.g. Russia Weekly or The Telegraph

Indonesia has also been making such noises see e.g. Bloomberg

The point being of course that a major prop to the US's prosperity is the denomination of oil in dollars which allows them to in effect print money and oblige their trading partners to underwrite their bloated spendthrift habits.

If Iran and/or Russia were to switch completely to Euros, there would be a certain amount of temptation on the part of other oil producing countries, to join in. Whether for economic or political reasons, or perhaps even to damage the US government before it starts fucking with them.

That could really bring the US's public debt turkey home to roost.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
to damage the US government before it starts fucking with them.

That seems plausible, even sensible.

The widespread prediction is that when the US debt does come home to roost, it'll cause widespread recession.

But on the other hand, if enough oil were denominated in Euros, maybe the European Central Bank could be convinced that it'd be wise, sound, and entirely affordable to spend our way out of it... what's the German for "John Maynard Keynes was right"?
 
If I remember right, the ratio is about 70% dollars and 20% euros right now.

I'm not strong enough on economics to be sure what'd be required to cripple the US's ability to print funny-money and oblige others to underwrite it.

Any expert views?
 
laptop said:
That seems plausible, even sensible.

The widespread prediction is that when the US debt does come home to roost, it'll cause widespread recession.

But on the other hand, if enough oil were denominated in Euros, maybe the European Central Bank could be convinced that it'd be wise, sound, and entirely affordable to spend our way out of it... what's the German for "John Maynard Keynes was right"?
Agreed, enough with the supply-side bullshit. Trouble is, the Euro and Sterling are going to take the brunt of any crash in the dollar given that Asia is pegging so hard. That'd need to be a lot of oil denominated in dollars to get out of that one, but I've no idea how much.
 
slaar said:
<snip> That'd need to be a lot of oil denominated in dollars to get out of that one, but I've no idea how much.
in dollars?

I value your views, so I'd be grateful if you could expound on this a bit more.
 
slaar said:
My mistake, I meant euros. I need to go to bed.
Fair enough, but I'd really like to hear (sometime) what you think of this whole US debt, oil denominated in Euros, imminent global depression, kind of stuff. Ditto freke if he's around.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Fair enough, but I'd really like to hear (sometime) what you think of this whole US debt, oil denominated in Euros, imminent global depression, kind of stuff. Ditto freke if he's around.

I'm thinking about it a lot at the moment, kind of hard to get a handle on it. I just have this image in my head of a dial marked "hegemonic economy" with Britain, US and China on it, the pointer's moving ever so slowly between the US and China but realistically it's maybe decades off assuming China doesn't go to social melt-down, until then there's this strange kind of void where a big shortfall in productivity of the keyt currency areas iis being held up by asset bubbles, and the key-currency economy is bleeding resources. Capital has to destroy to create, and it's not creating enough right now.

One part of me, being young, wants the US debt to be called in so we can get on with trying to solve the fall-out rather than being in this limbo where everyone knows the game but isn't admitting it and doesn't want time called.

This is a great article by the Guardian's economics editor with many more years and stocks of wisdom than me.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,1335120,00.html
The counterpart to the US trade deficit is that countries in Asia - particularly China - are running huge surpluses. If America is consuming too much, China is investing too much. In the short term, this keeps prices of US imports low, but at the long-term expense of costing America jobs and of building up a colossal speculative bubble that will collapse as soon as the US takes action to reduce its trade deficit.

Received wisdom is that the US economy is on the mend and the recovery - in Greenspan's words - will get traction. On this score, Bush is a classic Keynesian, using expansionary monetary and fiscal policy so the US can spend its way out of recession.

An alternative view is that the economy has been grotesquely mismanaged over the past four years, as witnessed not just by the trade deficit and the job losses but the way Bush has squandered the budget surplus bequeathed by Clinton.

Client-conscious

There is a third perspective. It is that Bush has finally buried the Republican party's reputation for fiscal prudence in favour of an approach to policy-making that dovetails with the conservative social views of his base. Michael Wolf wrote in the Spectator: "The Republicans are the party of the Southern Baptist Conference. The Democrats are the party of Goldman Sachs." Kerry supporters such as Professor James Galbraith think this view is wrong. Bush, he says, doesn't have and never has had an economic policy other than to "serve his clients"...

Edited to add: the shortfall in job creation in the US "recovery" is particularly astounding. Bush couldn't have chosen a more inefficient way of boosting short run growth than the one he did, tax cuts to the top brackets.
 
I love this quote from your article:
If you're on the breadline, you use an extra dollar to buy food or a new pair of shoes. If you're on $500,000, you already have everything you need, so you bank the tax cut.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
... I'd look at it this way. What do we actually know with a reasonable degree of certainty? (I use 'know' in this sense, I'm aware there are dissenting views)

We know fossil fuels are a finite resource.

How about this for a dissenting view Bernie: oil is not a "fossil fuel," nor is it "finite."

Incredible? Not when one considers the extensive body of scientific knowledge accumulated on the origins of petroleum by Russian scientists over the last 50 years. This body of work is collectively known as the modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins and has enabled the Former Soviet Union, which prior to its application had been considered petroleum-poor, not only to achieve energy self-sufficiency, but to become one of the largest if not the largest petroleum producer and exporting nation in the world.

Here's how Dave McGowan frames the question

News Letter 52:

"It appears that, unbeknownst to Westerners, there have actually been, for quite some time now, two competing theories concerning the origins of petroleum. One theory claims that oil is an organic 'fossil fuel' deposited in finite quantities near the planet's surface. The other theory claims that oil is continuously generated by natural processes in the Earth's magma. One theory is backed by a massive body of research representing fifty years of intense scientific inquiry. The other theory is an unproven relic of the eighteenth century. One theory anticipates deep oil reserves, refillable oil fields, migratory oil systems, deep sources of generation, and the spontaneous venting of gas and oil. The other theory has a difficult time explaining any such documented phenomena."

1. The essence of the modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins.

The modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins is not a vague, qualitative hypothesis, but stands as a rigorous analytic theory within the mainstream of the modern physical sciences. In this respect, the modern theory differs fundamentally not only from the previous hypothesis of a biological origin of petroleum but also from all traditional geological hypotheses. Since the nineteenth century, knowledgeable physicists, chemists, thermodynamicists, and chemical engineers have regarded with grave reservations (if not outright disdain) the suggestion that highly reduced hydrocarbon molecules of high free enthalpy (the constituents of crude oil) might somehow evolve spontaneously from highly oxidized biogenic molecules of low free enthalpy. Beginning in 1964, Soviet scientists carried out extensive theoretical statistical thermodynamic analysis which established explicitly that the hypothesis of evolution of hydrocarbon molecules (except methane) from biogenic ones in the temperature and pressure regime of the Earth’s near-surface crust was glaringly in violation of the second law of thermodynamics. They also determined that the evolution of reduced hydrocarbon molecules requires pressures of magnitudes encountered at depths equal to such of the mantle of the Earth. During the second phase of its development, the modern theory of petroleum was entirely recast from a qualitative argument based upon a synthesis of many qualitative facts into a quantitative argument based upon the analytical arguments of quantum statistical mechanics and thermodynamic stability theory. (Chekaliuk 1967; Boiko 1968; Chekaliuk 1971; Chekaliuk and Kenney 1991; Kenney 1995) With the transformation of the modern theory from a synthetic geology theory arguing by persuasion into an analytical physical theory arguing by compulsion, petroleum geology entered the mainstream of modern science.
The modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins is not controversial nor presently a matter of academic debate. The period of debate about this extensive body of knowledge has been over for approximately two decades (Simakov 1986). The modern theory is presently applied extensively throughout the former U.S.S.R. as the guiding perspective for petroleum exploration and development projects. There are presently more than 80 oil and gas fields in the Caspian district alone which were explored and developed by applying the perspective of the modern theory and which produce from the crystalline basement rock. (Krayushkin, Chebanenko et al. 1994) Similarly, such exploration in the western Siberia cratonic-rift sedimentary basin has developed 90 petroleum fields of which 80 produce either partly or entirely from the crystalline basement. The exploration and discoveries of the 11 major and 1 giant fields on the northern flank of the Dneiper-Donets basin have already been noted. There are presently deep drilling exploration projects under way in Azerbaijan, Tatarstan, and Asian Siberia directed to testing potential oil and gas reservoirs in the crystalline basement.
 
In my opinion the oil-euros-dollar theory is a crock of shit. Unfortunately, it seems to have been accepted by lots of people (one author, Janet Bush, is about to publish a book on it, which her publisher Verso has got terribly excited about).

The appeal of the theory is clear, but it is based upon a couple of assumptions that make it highly dubious.

Firstly, the theory supposes that the oil exporting countries would wish the US dollar to collapse. And it quite obvious that the collapse of the dollar would trigger a recession in the US, or, at the very least, massive and ongoing economic uncertainty, and that a US recession would almost certainly lead to a worldwide recession.

So the oil-euros-dollar theory firstly relies upon the oil exporters wishing to trigger a worldwide financial crisis. There is little evidence that they would wish to do so, and much to suggest that they have as much interest in maintaining steady worldwide economic growth as their counterparts in the West (look at the Saudis’ (now failed) policy of keeping oil at $22-28 a barrel). As oil exporters’ economies are often heavily reliant upon the export of oil, booms and busts in the West lead to even more severe booms and busts back at home. Look at Saudi government revenues from 1995-2004 for good evidence of this.

The second dubious assumption in the theory is that oil exporters are interested in the euro because it is now more ‘hard’ than the dollar. But why should they engage in currency speculation of this sort? Particularly, and this may be more to the point, when their own currencies are pegged to the dollar? With their own currencies pegged to the dollar trading oil in dollars eliminates any currency risk. If they had their currency pegged to the dollar but traded in euros, then they have created currency risk in their most important source of revenues – something that would then be very expensive to hedge around.

I’ll try to get an early copy of Janet Bush’s book, to see if she can put together a coherent argument on this, but on the evidence of an article published in the New Statesman a few weeks ago, I don’t hold out much hope.

http://agitprop.org.au/nowar/20041004_jb_monetary_jihad.php
 
freke said:
In my opinion the oil-euros-dollar theory is a crock of shit. <snip> [/url]
Aha, thanks freke :)

So if I understand you correctly you don't accept that it's likely that any such scenario could come about, on the basis of the players motivations?

Just for the sake of argument though, if such a scenario did come about for whatever reason, would the basic mechanism suggested apply? That is to say, would a switch away from the dollar cripple the US's ability to run massive deficits? Or would it also require that US treasury paper became un-appealing for other reasons, such as a lack of confidence in the US govt?
 
I guess what I am saying is that there are many countries whose economies are structurally reliant on the dollar not collapsing.

The Chinese and rest of SE Asia buy US T-bills because their economies are heavily dependent on exports to the US (and many of their own currencies are pegged to the dollar). For the oil exporters, switching out of the dollar makes no economic sense (they would be creating a huge currency risk in their revenues) and would be likely to trigger a financial crisis at home and abroad.
 
But, for the sake of argument, yes, the mechanism would apply. In the same way that house prices would collapse tomorrow if confidence went.
 
Ah, OK. Thanks that's very helpful to my understanding of this stuff.

Why do you think the idea keeps getting floated then? E.g. by the Russians in one of my links above.
 
Im not even sure a change to valuing oil in euros would herald a huge 'collapse'.

I dont see many nations, or any really, desiring to create some giant recession. Not good for re-election/bonuses/both...!

However normally collapses/recessions dont come about deliberately, they come about because of a clash of interests. And the ability of a small set of people to profit from it also helps.

Unless we have some new kind of economics the debt and property and other associated bubbles will at some point come back to earth...its more a question of what could trigger it. And how fast/hard/soft will it be.

Over investment in China? >> Rises in chinese prices? Currencies racing each other to the bottom? (ie If the dollar devalues it further pressurises the Yen and the € to devalue which pressurises the...etc etc) A smaller bubble bursting that triggers others around the world, say the korean economy? Oil/energy volatility? A further lack of spending by the developed world's consumers?

At the point that something bad appears to be happening will a government (say China) call in its chips as regards the US economy? They may take a standpoint that 'we get hurt, but we dont get hurt as much as the USA/we would do if we waited' etc.

Although Greenspan says everything is really fine I cant see longer than three years without some truly major readjustments. Assuming we dont have Internet Boom 2 or get visited by friendly aliens... :)
 
freke said:
Firstly, the theory supposes that the oil exporting countries would wish the US dollar to collapse...

..So the oil-euros-dollar theory firstly relies upon the oil exporters wishing to trigger a worldwide financial crisis.

This notion of 'Economic Jihad' - that the mechanism will be tripped by a deliberate decision or agressive policy in order to trash the US (read 'World') economy is, to my mind, a distraction - a bit of propaganda being cooked up to enable the US to point the finger of blame at outside entities (the Gov's of OPEC countries, etc) when the shit and fan meet.

This notion - that the economy of the US is being 'attacked' by the 'enemies' of the US and other assorted 'evil-doers' - is being propagated in much the same way as the notion that our apparent inability to to produce oil inline with demand is the fault of militants blowing up pipelines. Yes, it may be a small contributing factor, but to focus upon it distracts from the real underlying causes (which in both cases are systemic).

Check out the latest 'Speech' given by CIA agent Bin Laden from last Monday for a textbook bit of psyop designed to further this notion:
Osama Bin Laden said:
..So we are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy...
..every dollar of al-Qaida defeated a million dollars by the permission of Allah, besides the loss of a huge number of jobs.

So here we have 'Bin Laden' claiming responsibility for US job losses? Is there no end to this mans power? It's a fucking joke.

Only yesterday we saw the US$ hit an all time low against the Euro - something that appeared to slip below the news radar to a great extent -

USD.png


So we see a trend... It's already happening.

So if it's already happening, what is there to stop the 'mechanism' kicking in?

Just supposing the 'leader' of an oil producing country has the most pressing of reasons to try to help the US economy avoid meltdown, what can they do in a climate of a failing dollar? It's like the confidence and the housing market - once the market can be seen to be clearly falling, panic selling sets in where everybody tries to liquidate as quickly as possible to minimise their losses (or avoid a negative equity trap), thus exacerbating the fall further.

The only thing such a 'leader' could do is dump US$ reserves and buy Euros as fast as possible to minimise their losses, thus exacerbating the meltdown.

The only sensible thing for an oil producing country to do in such a climate is to make the switch.

freke said:
The second dubious assumption in the theory is that oil exporters are interested in the euro because it is now more ‘hard’ than the dollar. But why should they engage in currency speculation of this sort?

Why does anybody engage in currency speculation?

It's interesting to look at what happened with regard to Iraq's making that switch to Euros back in November 2000. You may recall (or probably not - it was all virtually unreported) that when Saddam announced his decision to stop trading oil for the 'enemy currency', there were dire warnings from all quarters regarding the folly of such a policy, eg:
U.S. Department of State said:
Baghdad's recent insistence on selling its oil in Euros rather than US dollars, which is the worldwide industry standard, will likely result in Iraq losing US$250 to US$300 million yearly in conversion fees and lost interest.
(*EPF505 01/26/01- Fact Sheet: U.S. Department of State on Iraqi Underspending)

And what really happened?
Iraq nets handsome profit by dumping dollar for euro

A bizarre political statement by Saddam Hussein has earned Iraq a windfall of hundreds of million of euros...
Guardian 16/2/03

Needless to say, G. W. Bush's (post invasion) Executive Order 13303 of May 22, 2003 put an end to this. :mad:
 
How does the following (if true) tie in to the current dollar fall?

Theres been pressure on China to switch from pegging its currency to the US dollar, and switch to a basket of currencies. G7 has recently asked them to do this I believe, the following article is just one example:

http://economy.news.designerz.com/us-to-press-china-on-currency-fluctuation-at-g7-meeting-snow.html

"China maintains a peg of 8.28 yuan to the dollar, which is blamed by countries such as the United States for making their goods too costly in China and Chinese-made exports unfairly cheap."

EU also seems to be making noises of woe at the US for allowing the dollar to drop.

So basically my question is "is the USA letting dollar value decline deliberately?" Is China selling lots of dollars as it gets ready to switch to a basket, causing downward pressure on the dollar? Is the USA perhaps happy that dollar drop has made its products cheaper for Europe and European imports less attractive in the US market?

Have things been propped up so far because all these countries own US debt in dollars, so its not in their interests to see the dollar devalue a bunch? I guess that brings things back to the oil currency issue. I read some article that Putin hinted at switching to the Euro for oil in 2003, but it was at least partly interpreted as a signal to see what favours he could win from Europe with such a carrot.

Finally is it true that if I am an oil exporting country who gets lots of dollars for my oil, and the dollar devalues, then this wont be bad for me if I spend all my dollars with America, assuming there is no high inflation of US goods & services prices in US$?

How much more expensive is oil now in real terms in the EU considering its priced in dollars and the dollar dropped so much during apporx same timeframe as oil price has shot up?
 
Are Oil and Gas Fossil Fuels?

Peter Odell is Professor Emeritus at the Erasmus University in Rotterdam, where he has been director of the center for international energy studies. He is now Visiting Professor at The London School of Economics.

http://www.kkrva.se/sve/energi/odell.shtml

Finally, a word of caution on the essential fragility of a study on the very long-term future for the world's energy supply which accepts without question the validity of the original 18th century hypothesis that all oil and gas resources have been generated from biological matter in the chemical and thermodynamic environments of the earth's crust. There is an alternative theory - already 50 years old - which suggests an inorganic origin for additional oil and gas. [12] This alternative view is widely accepted in the countries of the former Soviet Union where, it is claimed, "large volumes of hydrocarbons are being produced from the pre-Cambrian crystalline basement". [13] Recent applications of the inorganic theory have, however, also led to claims for the possibility of the Middle East fields being able to produce oil "forever" [14] and to the concept of repleting oil and gas field in the gulf of Mexico. [15] More generally, it is argued, "all giant fields are most logically explained by inorganic theory because simple calculations of potential hydrocarbon contents in sediments shows that organic materials are too few to supply the volumes of petroleum involved." [16]

The significance of the alternative theory of the origin of additional oil and gas potential is self evident for the issue of the longevity of hydrocarbons' production potential and production costs in the 21st century. Instead of having to consider a stock reserve already accumulated in a finite number of so-called oil and gas plays, the possibility emerges of evaluating hydrocarbons as essentially renewable resources in the context of whatever demand developments may emerge. If fields do replete because the oil and gas extracted from them is abyssal and abiotic (based on chemical reactions under specific thermodynamic conditions deep in the earth's mantle), then extraction costs should not rise as production from such fields continues for an indefinite period. Neither do estimates of reserves, reserves-to-production ratios and annual rates of discovery and additions to reserves have any of the importance correctly attributed to them in evaluating the future supply prospects under the organic theory of oil and gas' derivation. [17] In essence, the "ball park" in which consideration of the issues relating to the future of oil and gas has hitherto been made would no longer remain relevant.
 
“Every ten or fifteen years since the late 1800’s, ‘experts’ have predicted that oil reserves would last only ten more years.* These experts have predicted nine out of the last zero oil-reserve exhaustions.”
C. Maurice and C. Smithson, Doomsday Mythology:* 10,000 Years of Economic Crisis, Hoover Institution Press, Stanford, 1984.
 
Debunking the pseudo-science of Colin Cambell, Jean Leherrere, et al

Bernie_Gunther said:
In the article linked here, written prior to the US conquest of Iraq, the country possessing the second largest reserves remaining, Dr Colin Cambell, discusses the relationship between the geological characteristics of existing oil and gas reserves, especially their properties with respect to depletion, and the rising international tensions centred on the Middle East. Together with other sources of information ... a bleak overall picture starts to emerge.

It looks very much like Dr Cambell and his associates haven't been doing their sums properly Bernie, that is according to Professor Peter Odell of the LSE cited earlier and according to Michael C. Lynch, President, Strategic Energy and Economic Research, Inc., and Research Affiliate, Center for International Studies, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, cited here.

The New Pessimism about Petroleum Resources: Debunking the Hubbert Model (and Hubbert Modelers)
Recently, numerous publications have appeared warning that oil production is near an unavoidable, geologically-determined peak that could have consequences up to and including “war, starvation, economic recession, possibly even the extinction of homo sapiens” (Campbell in Ruppert 2002) The current series of alarmist articles could be said to be merely reincarnations of earlier work which proved fallacious, but the authors insist that they have made significant advances in their analyses, overcoming earlier errors.* For a number of reasons, this work has been nearly impenetrable to many observers, which seems to have lent it an added cachet. However, careful examination of the data and methods, as well as extensive perusal of the writings, suggests that the opacity of the work is at best obscuring the inconclusive nature of their research.
...
The argument that the drop in global discoveries proves scarcity of the resource is the best example of the importance of understanding causality. While it is true that global oil discoveries dropped in the 1970s from the previous rate, this was largely due to a drop in exploration in the Middle East. Governments nationalized foreign operations and cut back drilling as demand for their oil fell by half, leaving them with an enormous surplus of unexploited reserves. It is noteworthy that none of those pessimistic about oil resources show discovery over time by region, which would support this.

And two recent discoveries, Kashagan in Kazakhstan and Azedagan in Iran, reportedly would together equal over ten percent of Campbell and Laherrere’s estimated remaining undiscovered oil.* Statistically speaking, this is unlikely. Laherrere’s argument that the Middle East is near the end of its undiscovered oil is entirely based on the assumption that the observed fall-off in discoveries was due to a lack of geological opportunities, rather than government decision-making. (Laherrere 2001b) To an economist, the drop in exploration reflects optimal behavior: they do not waste money exploring for something they will not use for decades.

A more technical example is telling. Laherrere notes that the first 1920 new field wildcats in the Middle East discovered 723 billion barrels by 1980, while by the year 2000, a subsequent 1760 had found a mere 32 billion barrels. From this he concludes that the Middle East is essentially played out, extrapolating the falling returns to drilling and stating that “This graph shows clearly that the belief by some economists that the Middle East has a great potential left is wrong” (Laherrere 2002, p. 10). He achieves similar results for OPEC as a whole.

There are three primary errors here. First, the assumption that the discoveries in 2000 will not be revised upwards (an error as discussed above), but more important, the presumption that geology is driving the trend and thus, it is immutable. But finally, the third error is more basic: equating all wells in the Middle East, regardless of location. In fact, analysis of country drilling activity shows what should be obvious: drilling in Iran and Iraq dropped sharply in 1980, following the Iran/Iraq War, and sanctions have kept Iraqi drilling at a minimum in the past decade. At the same time, lesser provinces like Oman, Syria and Yemen have seen increased amounts of drilling. Thus, by lumping them together with Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc., as “Middle Eastern,” treating all wildcats as equal and extrapolating the success rate of pre-1980 and post-1980 wells yields fallacious results.[14]
 
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