Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Peak Oil (was "petroleum geologist explains US war policy")

Interesting piece by Nafeez Ahmed in the Indy:
Fracking: A new dawn for misplaced optimism

NEF have recently produced this:
The economics of oil dependence: A glass ceiling to recovery
The analysis presented in this report shows that this threat is as real and as imminent as was the banking crisis in the middle of the past decade. Without bold and imaginative action, the consequences will cast a shadow on generations to come. Unemployment, underfunded essential services, recession, and depressed and crippled economies provide daily reminders of what the future will hold.
 
I was talking to my brother about fracking the other day (he's in reservoir modelling) and he said that the real problem with fracking was not the earthquakes - at that low level they're actually beneficial - but the vast quantities of toxic sludge that comes back up with the gas and with which little can be done. And the sludge from beneath the UK's gas sources is going to have large quantities of radioactive phosphorus too.
 
I'm not a fracking fan, but I do have a bit of an issue with those headlines and some of the details. Now isnt the best time for me to try to explain because for once I've been down the pub. But I have been following the Bayou thing for some months since a site I follow decided to get hysterical about it and I fancied learning about the reality. Its a salt dome cavern failure and the radiation stuff is not near the top of the list of concerns and bad implications. So I wouldnt place it near the top of my list of fracking concerns, and some of the internet reports simply focus on this aspect because they want maximum fear and hysteria.
 
(attempting to move the debate out of the financial system thread, from here: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...mplosion-begins.172390/page-134#post-11861604)
Bald assertion. Technology is not energy but ways to use it.
Yet the means of creating/extracting it are still bound by physical laws, within which human ingenuity has to operate
Another bald assertion. Technology enables us to stretch the energy we have, use it more efficiently, make it last longer and do more.
Many of our machines already operate at close to maximum efficiency. Many industrial processes are impossible to make more efficient. If you want to melt a tonne of iron, then you need 100MJ of energy. Whether from electricity or from combustion, pretty much all the energy required to complete that process is absorbed by the iron.

Successive efficiency gains tend towards diminishing returns. An improvement from 25% to 50% efficiency doubles the amount of work you can do. A further improvement from 50% to 75% improves it only by half as much again. And efficiency gains get harder to make as you approach 100%.

Where did you get your mineral engineering degree? All technologies present problems; all technologies either mitigate the problems or go away.
All technology is dependent on energy. So far, the progression of technology has only enabled us to access a broader and deeper number of energy stores (nuclear included). The only real energy source we have is the sun. The scale of solar power stations required to replace fossil fuels is staggeringly large. I disagree with Falcon that it is necessarily a hi-tech, intensive industrial process; a concentrated solar thermal power station could be built with 100 year old technology. But the simple physics of it still means that the total energy supply of the future will be much lower than that of the present.
 
I remain cautiously optimistic on Throium, but am holding back the really good champagne for Polywell (which is still making progress in very annoying almost-total secrecy)
 
Further tugs on the thread:
Now here's a graph showing the total tender activity for the seismic surveying vessels, clearly showing the number of active tenders in the market rising dramatically through the 2005-2008 period. Yes the activity fell back as the oil price crashed in 2008/9 but that was a temporary blip.

Encouraging, sure, but do you have (yes I'm being lazy :oops:) data for actual discoveries? All your graph shows is frenzied searching. We need to know what they found.
 
I remain cautiously optimistic on Throium, but am holding back the really good champagne for Polywell (which is still making progress in very annoying almost-total secrecy)
Got any links?
Interesting to see research in this, like LENR until recently, funded by the US Navy.
 
Got any links?
Interesting to see research in this, like LENR until recently, funded by the US Navy.
Nothing substantial I'm afraid. The only information that had been leaking out was via the recovery.org tracker. Because the Navy applied for and got stimulus money for the project, they had to give progress reports. The Talk Polywell people keep tabs on those reports here: http://www.talk-polywell.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1681

The recent (ie, 2012) news can be summarised as:

They've done lots and lots of experimental testing. They're ramping up the field power. They're ramping up the electron injection equipment. No show stoppers. Their current contract runs out 31/10/2013 with work to cease 9/10/2014.

No data or news of good/bad results. All we can do is wait.
 
This is what really pisses me off:
Previous governments, going back at least twenty years, had been repeatedly advised to address the poor energy efficiency of the housing stock, particularly for public housing. They could have done this when mitigation would have been readily affordable, but chose to wait until the transition, if it can be afforded at all in a period of financial crisis, will be far more painful.
:mad:

Is it a mandatory requirement to be a clueless waste-of-space to be in government or what?
 
I dont just blame the government for that though, I think the old ways & clout of the UK building sector have something to do with it. The design, the materials and the people doing the construction are not so far fit for a low-carbon future.

Certainly housing stock is an area we have messed up with badly, and I dont have much faith that any dash for alternative gas that buys more time will be put to good use.
 
IMO, the new building regs part L and their built-in year on year escalation of standards have done a great deal to turn things round in the industry. There's a lot of grumbling from contractors, but the new build homes of today are much more efficient than they used to be.

But the bigger problem by far is the existing stock. All those victorian terraces and pre-war semis leak heat like a seive and are a pain in the arse to fix. Big, hard problem.
 
Yeah, I shouldnt make it sound like there has been no progress. I guess I just wanted to see at least a bit more dabbling at even more radical zero-carbon homes, not expecting to see them on a grand scale at this point but would still like to see us push harder against some of our traditional designs & materials.

Existing stock does make me fret a lot. No cavity walls to fill in my house for a start :(
 
LED lightbulbs and tablet computers are the only things that have really cheered me up in the 10ish years I've been worrying about energy. I'm aware that this is some of the easier stuff and I still need to take account of manufacturing energy, but its still something. Will be hard to cheer much about it unless we slow the pace of obsolescence by a huge amount though.
 
Further tugs on the thread:


Encouraging, sure, but do you have (yes I'm being lazy :oops:) data for actual discoveries? All your graph shows is frenzied searching. We need to know what they found.
nope, I'm not sure where the discoveries data comes from unfortunately, and the source given on those graphs is a private oil consultancy that doesn't seem to make the data publicly available. The reserves data I gave earlier in the other thread should be related to it, though it's discoveries plus recovery gains plus already known about fields that have now become economic to extract from - such as the Venezuelan fields Falcon doesn't seem to like being booked into the figures recently.

A large part of the argument for why the worst of the peak oil predictions are wrong though is that they ignore the impact that price rises will have on making previously uneconomic reserves economic, so it's not surprising to find that Falcon rejects the data that doesn't fit with his world view for the spurious reason that it's not a new discovery, just something that was previously uneconomically recoverable but now is.

proven oil reserves graph.JPG

As I said in the other thread, even if you exclude the venezuala field that's still and addition of 70 billion barrels of reserves in a period when Falcons graphs extrapolated from 2004 data were predicting that overall reserve levels really ought to have been falling (at least that's the perception they're designed to give).

Now, ok so these additional reserves will have lower EROI figures, but this doesn't mean that they should be ignored entirely.

ps The reason for posting a graph demonstrating clearly the level of increased exploration activity was that Falcon was even suggesting that this was an illusion.
 
I remain cautiously optimistic on Throium, but am holding back the really good champagne for Polywell (which is still making progress in very annoying almost-total secrecy)
How much progress do you surmise? I look on that forum occasionally you linked to ages ago but secrecy seems to be the order of the day as you say. Also came across this guy via that forum, I think but he doesn't seem too optimistic atm.
 
I remain cautiously optimistic on Throium
Oddly enough, I was approached via our consultancy arm (with my dad and another energy professor) to pull together a bid to fund a UK research and development team to develop a pilot thorium fuelled MSR plant in association with a retired colleague of theirs who it turned out had worked for several years as part of the research team operating the US pilot plant at Oak Ridge that ran for a few years in the late 60s / early 70s.

Unfortunately the approach came too late to actually pull a credible bid team together for that funding, but the intensive 2-3 weeks studying of the technology and discussions with someone who's actually spent several years working with an actual operating reactor, as well as 2 other professors with expertise in the heat exchange and power generation side of things led me to the conclusion that there are basically no technological barriers remaining to these reactors being developed - the only obstruction to it is political (both small and big p), with 2 generations of US and UK nuclear scientists having been trained effectively that thorium MSR technology is the competing technology that could result in them all losing their jobs, so they won't allow any research funding to go to it.

China however have put a serious amount of research and development funding in to it, and should have a working prototype before 2020, at which time the rest of the nuclear industry around the world might have to actually wind their necks in and allow this to be developed.

IMO Thorium MSRs will start filling the energy gap left by fossil fuels from around 2030, with the potential to grow pretty rapidly beyond that point, and it's only politics stopping it.

One key factor that could delay this development is if we allow the generation of scientists and engineers who worked on Oak Ridge to die off entirely before we restart the programme, as we'll then lose all their knowledge and expertise which could help us to jump 10-15 years ahead with it.
 
A large part of the argument for why the worst of the peak oil predictions are wrong though is that they ignore the impact that price rises will have on making previously uneconomic reserves economic, so it's not surprising to find that Falcon rejects the data that doesn't fit with his world view for the spurious reason that it's not a new discovery, just something that was previously uneconomically recoverable but now is.
So we are clear. You were challenged to show:

1. Evidence that we are on track to discovering the equivalent of 150% of current Saudi resource
2. Evidence that such addition is new resource, not mobilised previous discovery
3. Evidence that such new resource can sustain the same production rate as the depleted resource did

You were further challenged to acknowledge that, even if you could, you'd have demonstrated only a 14 year peak extension - far less that than the time necessary to build out your projects. And you were challenged to acknowledge that the additional hydrocarbon would fry the planet.

You can't do it and you won't acknowledge the point. Instead you'll replicate your little strategy of quibbling about minor noise in the data to avoid the signal. Good luck with it.

Meanwhile, your assumption about my assumption about the effect of oil price is, of course, wrong (that said, your consistency is remarkable).

What the peak oil prediction employs is a logistics curve fitted to historical data. The logistic curve accurately models any system which starts easy and ends hard (which describes the global petroleum system type). Its fit to historical data encodes the technical and economic context of that historical data. Its projection forecasts the oil that an accumulation will yield under similar technical and economic conditions.

The same technical and economic conditions will yield the declining profile governed by the start easy end hard dynamics. Better technical and economic conditions would have yielded an increment relative to that projected decline. Poorer technical and economic conditions (our future) will yield a deficit relative to the projected decline. Your statement that peak oil forecasts ignore price is factually incorrect - it accommodates it easily.

Price is only one economic factor. Lifting cost is the other. Oil price and lifting costs have both doubled. I referred you to IEA sources asserting that net investment is falling. There have been no technical improvements in recent decades that compare with the introduction of satellite remote sensing, downhole sensing using miniaturised computers, supercomputer based seismic processing, and geophysical and geochemical advances in the 1970's. Since neither economic nor technical conditions are improving in net terms, we are tracking the projection encoded by near historical conditions. The reserves you report are accelerations (existing resource brought forward by investment), not additions (additional resource discovered by investment). Their effect will be to steepen depletion, intensifying the stress on the economic system round about the time they are attempting to scale up your projects.

Hubbert forecasting techniques are founded in petroleum engineering methods and offer a lot of very interesting properties that yield useful insights into oilfield dynamics. Sadly, you don't have the kind of mind that is receptive to new information, so they must remain a mystery to you.

I'll save you a lot of typing by advising you I have no intention of engaging in the sort of uninformed debate with which you advanced your curious ideas about the properties of our climate system.
 
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9737

Olivier Rech developed petroleum scenarios for the International Energy Agency over a three year period, up until 2009. This French economist now advises large investment funds on behalf of La Française AM, a Parisian assets management firm.


MA: In that case, what is your view on the timing of the global peak and decline of total world oil and alternative liquid fuels output?
OR: It is always delicate to project a precise date. The recovery rate of existing fields is increasing. The US on-shore production is declining very slowly (and one must add that they are drilling in a frenzy over there). It is an error to underestimate the know-how of drilling engineers.
MA: Taking account of all these factors capable of slowing a decline, what conclusion do you draw?
OR: We will certainly remain below 95 mb/d for the combined totals of conventional and non-conventional oil.
MA: Therefore, you are clearly more alarmist than the IEA and Total, the most pessimistic of petroleum companies. Total evokes the possibility of maintaining production on a plateau of about 95 mb/d until 2030.
OR: It's true. The production of oil has already been on a plateau since 2005 at around 82 mb/d. [NB: with biofuels and coal-to-liquid, we approximate 88 mb/d for all liquid fuels.] It appears to me impossible to go much higher. Since demand is still on an increasing trajectory (unless, possibly, the economic crisis engulfs the emerging economies), I expect to see the first tensions arising between 2013 and 2015.
MA: And after that?
OR: Afterwards, in my view, we will have to face a decline of the production of all forms of liquid fuels somewhere between 2015 to 2020. This decline will not necessarily be rapid, however, but it will be a decline, that much seems clear.

I didnt want to quote the entire interview but obviously I've missed some interesting stuff out of the above.
 
I'm sure, of you, that is a true statement.

The hope of running high grade energy consuming high tech economies on low grade energy is indistinguishable, thermodynamically speaking, from the hope of turning a bath of tepid water into ice cubes and hot water. But if you don't understand thermodynamics (as most don't) then you won't realise that. Might I suggest, rather than websites, you read a foundational textbook in thermodynamics? 1st year university level is probably sufficient.
(*Cross-quoted from other thread as it's more relevant for this one...)

TBF, i don't know why you bothered trying to engage Frank Merton on the other thread. That guy made the assertion that climate change may be a positive thing ffs :D
 
That quote does leave me wondering if Falcon is aware of the function of a heat pump.

Which in his analogy is pretty much what renewables are doing in terms of taking an amount of up front high grade energy then using this to spend several decades transforming low grade energy into significantly greater quantities of high grade electricity than were used in their initial construction and operation.
 
Back
Top Bottom