Pc David Rathband (Raoul Moat victim) dead

[ViolentPanda]

Not everyone is a 'supercrip..

You're wrong.

No-one is a "supercrip".

...you seem to be using your own experiences and projecting them onto others, your view is a very harsh one which i suspect even badly injured soldiers (of which there are many) would not agree.

Of course I'm projecting my own experiences, and you're free to suspect what you like.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And for you to follow through, natch

Are you saying he's faecally-incontinent?

 

[Blagsta]

Anyone?

Something about Hitler?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Cant say ive ever seen you rock up to other suicide threads calling people weak.

Maybe that's because I get especially pissed off at people doing it when they have access to extensive support of the kind that's often not available to Joe Average.

 

[krtek a houby]

Are you saying he's faecally-incontinent?

Naw, it's just a faecal character flaw

 

[1927]

Nonsense, suicide is universally acknowledged to be the ultimate selfish act, that's a moral judgement.

Those who throw themselves under trains are judged due to the trauma they cause the train driver.

etc.

But in this case he didnt throw himslef under a train did he, just took his life home alone. I dont knoww enough about his family life to know whether he left kids and stuff who will be effected, but if he didnt it is hard to see how it is selfish and who he has effected by taking this decision!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Sorry, but half of the homeless in the UK are ex-military. Because we give them shite support, yes, but also because they are not handling the trauma well.

Nowhere near half, but still way too many.
And they don't necessarily become homeless due to trauma, either. It's sometimes due to institutionalisation, especially if they never married.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Because the whole "gets injured, stays angry, beats up wife, commits suicide" schtick features regularly in the media.

I have to point out there is a very similar theme for soldiers too:

The number of former servicemen in prison or on probation or parole is now more than double the total British deployment in Afghanistan, according to a new survey. An estimated 20,000 veterans are in the criminal justice system, with 8,500 behind bars, almost one in 10 of the prison population.
The proportion of those in prison who are veterans has risen by more than 30% in the last five years.
The study by the probation officers' union Napo uncovers the hidden cost of recent conflicts. The snapshot survey of 90 probation case histories of convicted veterans shows a majority with chronic alcohol or drug problems, and nearly half suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder or depression as a result of their wartime experiences on active service.
Those involved had served in Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan. They are most likely to have been convicted of a violent offence, particularly domestic violence.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So what?

You and your grandfather found things to live for, stuff to look forward to, a reason to get out of bed in the morning, despite your disabilities.

This chap evidently didn't.

It's not even to do with the injury really - perfectly physically healthy people kill themselves all the time because they can no longer bear being alive. Who the fuck are you to judge them for it?

Who the fuck am I?

I'm me. I have as much right to stand in judgement as you have to wring your hands and pontificate about morality and (seemingly) the sanctity of the dead.

 

[silverfish]

Because the whole "gets injured, stays angry, beats up wife, commits suicide" schtick features regularly in the media.



Not "less affected" (that's with an "a", not an "e"), differently in terms of volume/prevalence.

I'm not accepting either of those points as valid, sorry.

I'f you are gonna throw vague, been there seen it done it dits come out with it don't fucking skirt round it

I've been blown up, i've suffered what could be described as a life changing injury (seperate incidents) and I've spent a lot of time with spazzed out servicemen and the people who deal with them. I can assure you no ones experience can be bracketed or labelled who ever the fuck you are. Each human being is individual, to suggest a particular profession is less adept at accepting and coming to terms with life changing injuries however they have occurred is fucking absurd


Experience. Attendance at military hospitals, that's where.

 

[silverfish]

Bad cut and paste, my reply is in there somewhere

 

[kabbes]

Bad cut and paste, my reply is in there somewhere

You can edit your posts, you know.

 

[silverfish]

I'm drunk and on a shitepad :-(

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Who the fuck am I?

I'm me. I have as much right to stand in judgement as you have to wring your hands and pontificate about morality and (seemingly) the sanctity of the dead.

Ah, the 'everyone is entitled to their opinion' fall back.

 

[kabbes]

I'm drunk and on a shitepad :-(

Two excuses I can actually accept.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Limb damage. Bad enough that more than 30 years later I still can't walk, sit or stand without pain, and I'm talking about "take prescription opiates"-strength pain, not "take an aspirin" stuff.
Detailed enough, or would you like the name of the toe-rag who did it, too?

Detailed enough, certainly. However (and obviously this is personal opinion) I feel there is a chalk and cheese difference between the levels of incapacity here. The best example I can give is that with sufficiently strong painkillers, you are able to walk, sit and stand, even if only in a most limited way. No similar medication exists for the blind to allow them even limited sight.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Unfortunately, I am not unfamiliar with the world of disability. My father has been registered blind for 20 years, and my mother was crippled through illness for several years prior to her death. I was her carer, and had to dress, bathe and otherwise look after her. One of the less pleasant examples of that was having clearing her laryngectomy stoma of mucus with a suction pump throughout the day. I was also my wife's carer for the 2 years it took her to recover from a subarachnoid haemorrhage that left her paralysed down the left side of her body. I am no specialist nurse, but I feel I have at least reasonable familiarity with various forms of disability. Whilst we are putting cards on table, I did ask above what the life changing injury you suffered was, as I do think that if you're claiming to have endured something similar enough to the deceased to call him weak, it'd be reasonable to specify what that was.

And I have done.

Navigable is a vague term, that really does not mean much. For instance, Phil Packer lost all feeling and use of his legs, but was able to complete a marathon on crutches. There is the rather famous case of Oscar Pistorius, born without legs, but capable of running 100m on his prosthetics at a time I doubt anyone on this board could match. Clearly aids exist for such disabilities that go far beyond making them "navigable"

Whereas lose your eyes, and really all you have are coping strategies and very limited aids. Braille, audiobooks, white stick, guide dog...these really aren't offering anything even close to the return of abilities that the cases above show.

Nothing offers a "return", they offer alternatives and make-dos for what is missing, and w/r/t blindness, you appear to miss what are often the most valuable compensatory tools available - the other senses.

Obviously people can and do adjust, but in this case the deceased had stated he was battling with depression. For whatever reason, it overcame him. That happens to some people, and may not indicate weakness. As a counter point, I have seen it claimed that more Falklands veterans have committed suicide than died in the conflict. Do you feel that all of these people were also weak, and deserve to be scorned?

Most of those veterans gave life after trauma a much longer crack of the whip than Mr. Rathband did, something that I respect them for.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ah, the 'everyone is entitled to their opinion' fall back.

It's not a fallback, it's a fact, and I'm not pretending that my opinion belongs to anyone but me. I'm certainly not sententiously pronouncing on the morality of commenting on someone's suicide, like some posters I could mention.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's not a fallback, it's a fact, and I'm not pretending that my opinion belongs to anyone but me. I'm certainly not sententiously pronouncing on the morality of commenting on someone's suicide, like some posters I could mention.

How dare I criticise your judgemental attitude. How judgemental of me.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Detailed enough, certainly. However (and obviously this is personal opinion) I feel there is a chalk and cheese difference between the levels of incapacity here. The best example I can give is that with sufficiently strong painkillers, you are able to walk, sit and stand, even if only in a most limited way. No similar medication exists for the blind to allow them even limited sight.

And yet devices and mechanisms exist that someone without eyesight can use to achieve the same ends as when they had sight. It boils down to a choice - play the hand you're dealt, or leave the game, and that goes whatever you injury/disability/impairment.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Nothing offers a "return", they offer alternatives and make-dos for what is missing, and w/r/t blindness, you appear to miss what are often the most valuable compensatory tools available - the other senses.

Well, clearly our opinions differ, but I still stand by mine. I think there is a massive difference between the level of return to previous abilities available to different types of disability. For example, a man with no feeling/control below the waist who can manage a marathon is (again, purely opinion) much closer to their old life than a recently blinded man who has learnt braille. And whilst the blind obviously do use their other senses more to compensate, it's as very, very limited form of compensation.

As for the idea that those who committed suicide after the Falklands deserver more respect because they lasted longer? Really? What's the cut off then? 5 years, 10 years? Just how long does someone have to endure before suicide loses its stigma for you? I'm sorry, but I think you know that is a very sketchy basis to differentiate between a respectable suicide, and one that can be scorned.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How dare I criticise your judgemental attitude. How judgemental of me.

Sorry, have I said "how dare you"?

Nah, I merely commented on the fact that I'm free to hold my own opinion, just as you are, and expressed amusement at your self-righteousness.

 

[kabbes]

And yet devices and mechanisms exist that someone without eyesight can use to achieve the same ends as when they had sight. It boils down to a choice - play the hand you're dealt, or leave the game, and that goes whatever you injury/disability/impairment.

The only way to win is cheat
and lay it down before I'm beat
and to another give my seat
for that's the only painless feat.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sorry, have I said "how dare you"?

Nah, I merely commented on the fact that I'm free to hold my own opinion, just as you are, and expressed amusement at your self-righteousness.

See, from where I'm sat, you're the self-righteous one here.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

And yet devices and mechanisms exist that someone without eyesight can use to achieve the same ends as when they had sight. It boils down to a choice - play the hand you're dealt, or leave the game, and that goes whatever you injury/disability/impairment.

I'd rather see the lillies in the field though than consider them

 

[bi0boy]

Pig tops himself

I'm surprised Urban gives so many fucks.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

And yet devices and mechanisms exist that someone without eyesight can use to achieve the same ends as when they had sight

I think we'd be as well agreeing to differ on this for fear of boring the tits off of everyone else. Unless someone out there* has devised a scale for accurately measuring the impact of different disabilities, and then re-measured when whatever aid is used, then it's just going to be both of us stating our opinion.


* Which actually could be the case. Seems a lot more useful than some research theses I've heard of.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Pig tops himself

I'm surprised Urban gives so many fucks.

He had family

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, clearly our opinions differ, but I still stand by mine. I think there is a massive difference between the level of return to previous abilities available to different types of disability. For example, a man with no feeling/control below the waist who can manage a marathon is (again, purely opinion) much closer to their old life than a recently blinded man who has learnt braille. And whilst the blind obviously do use their other senses more to compensate, it's as very, very limited form of compensation.

As for the idea that those who committed suicide after the Falklands deserver more respect because they lasted longer? Really? What's the cut off then? 5 years, 10 years? Just how long does someone have to endure before suicide loses its stigma for you? I'm sorry, but I think you know that is a very sketchy basis to differentiate between a respectable suicide, and one that can be scorned.

It's about giving life after trauma a fair go, and this isn't an issue of respectable vs non-respectable suicide - I don't see suicide as an act as a moral issue - it's an issue of effort. It seems to me, from perusing the various reportage, that Mr. Rathband spent more time railing against his injury than attempting to come to terms with it - to me he seems to have killed himself before even trying to reconcile himself with his injury, and for that I have little respect.
Obviously, I realise that I'm a product of my own experiences, and that his (and indeed yours) differ.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

It's about giving life after trauma a fair go, and this isn't an issue of respectable vs non-respectable suicide - I don't see suicide as an act as a moral issue - it's an issue of effort. It seems to me, from perusing the various reportage, that Mr. Rathband spent more time railing against his injury than attempting to come to terms with it - to me he seems to have killed himself before even trying to reconcile himself with his injury, and for that I have little respect.

But I'm sure you have sympathy.