Pc David Rathband (Raoul Moat victim) dead

[Minnie_the_Minx]

or that his ego prevented him opening his mind to the idea of acceptance.

Pride comes before a fall eh

 

[ViolentPanda]

You're being very judgemental here, VP.

So what?
I've seen people go into the meat-grinder and come out the other side with far worse injuries than Mr. Rathband, and then suck up all the self-pity and despair and get on with life. Yes, I'm judging him. I'm judging him because, from my perspective, he was a weak man who took the easy way out despite all the help and assistance offered to him. Am I supposed to respect him for killing himself? Am I supposed to hold back from stating my opinion of his actions because someone might find it offensive that I do so?

 

[SpookyFrank]

I think we need a full table of possible responses and their acceptability for criticism

I am not personally of the opinion that there is any excuse for beating your wife.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Pride comes before a fall eh

Unlike ymu, my frst thought when I heard that Mr. Rathband had killed himself wasn't of that paralysed rugby player, but of that copper back in the early '80s whose spinal cord got damaged by a bullet, but who vowed that he was going to walk again, then eventually killed himself when he couldn't. If you can't accept what happens to you, be that pride or even stupidity, then yeah, you're setting yourself up for a fall, unfortunately.

 

[gentlegreen]

Where's the dislike button when you need one ?

I may ignore the poster instead.

Horrible little twat.

EDIT - and breathe ...

 

[agricola]

So what?
I've seen people go into the meat-grinder and come out the other side with far worse injuries than Mr. Rathband, and then suck up all the self-pity and despair and get on with life. Yes, I'm judging him. I'm judging him because, from my perspective, he was a weak man who took the easy way out despite all the help and assistance offered to him. Am I supposed to respect him for killing himself? Am I supposed to hold back from stating my opinion of his actions because someone might find it offensive that I do so?

How many of those people were middle-aged family men in a non-combatant role, whose injury was national news, whose injury was inflicted on them for completely idiotic reasons and who proceeded - as the result of their injury - to lose almost all of what they defined themselves by before their injury?

FWIW I dont think he should have killed himself, but it seems to me a bit much to criticize someone for not managing to cope with all of what happened to him.

 

[kabbes]

I am not personally of the opinion that there is any excuse for beating your wife.

I quite agree. There are lots of actions that lies on an acceptability scale between "beating your wife" and "suicide", though, and I think we need to identify exactly what they are and whether or not we can criticise them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not decided. One does not simply decide to accept one's fate with equanimity. If only it were that simple!

Actually, one eventually does, or one tops oneself. It really is that simple.

Also, self-pity, initially at least, is a very natural reaction. Comparing him to soldiers injured in war is also not necessarily too instructive. The soldiers will have other means of keeping themselves going - a better support structure, solidarity from his comrades, and also probably a different sense of 'injustice': a soldier goes to war knowing that he may be injured.

A police officer goes on the beat knowing the same, and arguably has a better, less anonymous support structure. Coppers, for example, don't tend to need to rely on grants from the Royal British Legion for basic adaptations or decent artificial limbs.

 

[quimcunx]

All of us have things we could cope with and things we could not, and none of us know what those things are until and unless we are faced with them.

This.

And suicide isn't the only way of not coping.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Actually, one eventually does, or one tops oneself. It really is that simple.

Perhaps. But reaching the point where you are capable of making that decision is not necessarily simple at all. We are emotional, not logical, beings at root. We have to sort our emotions out in order to make decisions.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How many of those people were middle-aged family men in a non-combatant role, whose injury was national news, whose injury was inflicted on them for completely idiotic reasons and who proceeded - as the result of their injury - to lose almost all of what they defined themselves by before their injury?

The only difference is that most of them weren't middle-aged. All injuries are inflicted for "idiotic reasons", and many veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan have been made into "national news".

FWIW I dont think he should have killed himself, but it seems to me a bit much to criticize someone for not managing to cope with all of what happened to him.

I'm speaking from my perspective, you from yours. My perspective, though, is informed by familiarity with life-changing trauma, so I don't see it as "a bit much" to criticise Rathband for taking the easy way out.

 

[treelover]

There are more than a few ex-servicemen from those two places who have killed themselves as a result of what happened though, plus of course one has to wonder whether a forty-year-old traffic PC in Northumberland is going to have properly considered (or been trained to consider) the possibility that his job will leave him maimed and dependent on others (at least to the extent that a soldier in a warzone might consider the risk of being injured).

Obviously it was his decision to end his life but I dont think you can necessarily blame him for not coming to terms with something as senseless as being shot in the face by Moat, given that it pretty effectively trashed almost every aspect of his life as it existed before Moat shot him.

RIP PC Rathband

Out of interest, how did you cope with the possibility something very serious could happen to you when you were on the beat, especially as I imagine things weren't even as good vis a vis councelling services, etc in the police force awhile back..

 

[Citizen66]

Why not? He's said similar numerous times!

Yeah, but not on a rip thread.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

We have to sort our emotions out in order to make decisions.

and maybe that's what VP's point was, about counselling, but he may have been too proud (or stupid) to have bothered with that

I don't think if similar happened to me, I'd go for counselling either as I'm too private a person, so maybe that probably makes me stupid as well

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm speaking from my perspective, you from yours. My perspective, though, is informed by familiarity with life-changing trauma, so I don't see it as "a bit much" to criticise Rathband for taking the easy way out.

I've never quite understood the idea that suicide is an 'easy way out'. It seems like something that is anything but easy to me.

Anyway, fwiw, anyone who has killed himself has put himself beyond moral judgement, imo.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

I'm speaking from my perspective, you from yours. My perspective, though, is informed by familiarity with life-changing trauma, so I don't see it as "a bit much" to criticise Rathband for taking the easy way out.

As you are arguing that you speak from authority, can you advise what your life changing injury was?

 

[kabbes]

I would think that your opinion of Rathband's decision is rather dependent on your view of the general acceptability of suicide as a choice. People have rather different views on that, as we have seen on threads passim.

 

[treelover]

Quite. He couldn't get past the fact that he'd been blinded - an injury that a couple of dozen British soldiers have suffered in Iraq and Afghanistan, and have dealt with without the visible and voluminous self-pity that Mr. Rathband displayed, without taking their sense of helplessness and anger out on others physically. I'm not pulling an ACAB line here, by the way, I'm stating a simple fact: Moat did him the injury, but everything after that was a path that Rathband decided to go down, including not accepting the fact of his injury and the changes such an injury wreak on your life.

Not everyone is a 'supercrip', you seem to be using your own experiences and projecting them onto others, your view is a very harsh one which i suspect even badly injured soldiers (of which there are many) would not agree.

 

[past caring]

I've never quite understood the idea that suicide is an 'easy way out'. It seems like something that is anything but easy to me.

Anyway, fwiw, anyone who has killed himself has put himself beyond moral judgement, imo.

Anyone?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Is it tho?

If you gave someone a choice I dont think it would be an easy decision. Personally I would give up just about everything before my sight.

I'd rather be blind than lose a leg or both legs, but either way, I wouldn't see death as an acceptable path, giving up as an acceptable alternative to meeting the challenge. To me, life is way too interesting and gratifying to chuck it away just because part of you is damaged, but then perhaps I'm one of those people who believes in trying to make the best of any situation, whereas Mr. Rathband appears to have very much identified himself through his job.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Anyone?

Moral judgement of the act of killing himself, yes.

 

[agricola]

out of interest, how did you cope with the possibility something very serious could happen to you when you were on the beat, especially as I imagine things weren't even as good vis a vis councilling services, etc in the police force awhile back..

I was more concerned about what happened to me going to or from work on my motorbike than what happened whilst I was at work, certainly in my own limited experience of things I know more colleagues who suffered serious injury and/or died as a result of that, as opposed to being assaulted. Being assaulted, or having to deal with people with knives or other weapons is always a risk though. (edit) Though my own experience of being knocked off whilst on the bike has probably affected my judgement on this.

The only difference is that most of them weren't middle-aged. All injuries are inflicted for "idiotic reasons", and many veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan have been made into "national news".

Not to the extent that he was, and whilst all injuries might be inflicted for idiotic reasons its difficult to think of any soldier who had a steroid-crazed loon fire a shotgun twice into his face and blind him because the loon mistakenly thought that another officer had slept with his ex.

I'm speaking from my perspective, you from yours. My perspective, though, is informed by familiarity with life-changing trauma, so I don't see it as "a bit much" to criticise Rathband for taking the easy way out.

Well obviously, though I dont agree with you.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Moral judgement of the act of killing himself, yes.

Nonsense, suicide is universally acknowledged to be the ultimate selfish act, that's a moral judgement.

Those who throw themselves under trains are judged due to the trauma they cause the train driver.

etc.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

I'd rather be blind than lose a leg or both legs, but either way, I wouldn't see death as an acceptable path, giving up as an acceptable alternative to meeting the challenge. To me, life is way too interesting and gratifying to chuck it away just because part of you is damaged, but then perhaps I'm one of those people who believes in trying to make the best of any situation, whereas Mr. Rathband appears to have very much identified himself through his job.

For starters, I doubt there are many people out there who'd rather lose their sight than a leg. If nothing else, there are many prosthetics and aids for giving mobility to those without legs. There's nothing even close to a replacement for eyesight.

Secondly, are you really claiming that there is no form of illness or debilitating injury you could imagine that would make you consider ending it?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Dont be such a cock. How can you possibly know what went thru his head. I couldnt even begin to imagine what being blind would be like and am not sure any amount of counselling could help me deal with it.

My grandfather spent the last 30 years of his life totally blind. Both is eyes were surgically removed due to tumours in his early 50s. I know what went through his head: Keep on keeping on. I know because we actually discussed disability and what it meant. He found stuff to do with his hands, learned to use his cane, familiarised himself with his environment and got the fuck on with things, even though his life changed markedly from that of an active former career soldier, to more sedentary pursuits.

 

[Citizen66]

So what?
I've seen people go into the meat-grinder and come out the other side with far worse injuries than Mr. Rathband, and then suck up all the self-pity and despair and get on with life. Yes, I'm judging him. I'm judging him because, from my perspective, he was a weak man who took the easy way out despite all the help and assistance offered to him. Am I supposed to respect him for killing himself? Am I supposed to hold back from stating my opinion of his actions because someone might find it offensive that I do so?

Cant say ive ever seen you rock up to other suicide threads calling people weak.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I'd rather be blind than lose a leg or both legs, but either way, I wouldn't see death as an acceptable path, giving up as an acceptable alternative to meeting the challenge. To me, life is way too interesting and gratifying to chuck it away just because part of you is damaged, but then perhaps I'm one of those people who believes in trying to make the best of any situation, whereas Mr. Rathband appears to have very much identified himself through his job.

You're a glass half full man

 

[fogbat]

So what?
I've seen people go into the meat-grinder and come out the other side with far worse injuries than Mr. Rathband, and then suck up all the self-pity and despair and get on with life. Yes, I'm judging him. I'm judging him because, from my perspective, he was a weak man who took the easy way out despite all the help and assistance offered to him. Am I supposed to respect him for killing himself? Am I supposed to hold back from stating my opinion of his actions because someone might find it offensive that I do so?

IMO he had failed before that, when he didn't recover from his injuries where others have. It is an act of gross disrespect to all of us who have, at one time or another, been injured.

 

[past caring]

Moral judgement of the act of killing himself, yes.

So make a judgement about the morality of the act only up to the point that someone actually carries out that act? And why the assumption that the utility/purpose of moral judgement is solely to judge others?

 

[ViolentPanda]

For starters, I doubt there are many people out there who'd rather lose their sight than a leg. If nothing else, there are many prosthetics and aids for giving mobility to those without legs. There's nothing even close to a replacement for eyesight.

I think this shows your unfamiliarity with the world of disability, padawan. Most disability is navigable, blindness included.
One does need to actually accept the limitations imposed by the disability and work hard at developing new skills to partially compensate, though.

Secondly, are you really claiming that there is no form of illness or debilitating injury you could imagine that would make you consider ending it?

A couple, neither of which would actually leave me in a position to do so, though.
I've spent more than half my life accepting the limitations my own situation have put on me, though, so I've possibly put more thought into the subject than most. I do honestly believe that life, even one with limitations, is worth persevering with. If nothing else, it's a challenge.