Pc David Rathband (Raoul Moat victim) dead

[littlebabyjesus]

So make a judgement about the morality of the act only up to the point that someone actually carries out that act? And why the assumption that the utility/purpose of moral judgement is solely to judge others?

No. I make no judgement of the morality of suicide at all. IMO it is an act that is beyond moral judgement.

 

[DotCommunist]

The peoples prince strikes from beyond the grave

 

[Wilf]

Now I despise coppers as much as any right thinking individual but I still have enough respect for them as human beings not to presume to psychoanalyse them after their death based entirely on news reports; nor to criticise their response to an horrific injury like this.

Although if his response was to beat up his wife, I'm prepared to criticise that.

Spot on, in every respect.
VP, you might have personal experience of this (as have I at a lower level of injury perhaps), but you are still making some unworthy generalisations.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

It's good that you're up for a challenge VP but not everyone is.

Also, how does anyone know he killed himself due to his injuries? Maybe it was to do with his behaviour with his wife? (Still not a good reason to top yourself but...)

 

[ymu]

I'd contend that this appears to be a character trait that police officers injured in the line of duty develop more often than either the military or the general population. There's a thin line between working your way back to the best performance you're capable of with your injury, and refusing to accept the limitations your injury places you under. If you don't accept, then you won't go anywhere except underground or up a chimney.

Sorry, but half of the homeless in the UK are ex-military. Because we give them shite support, yes, but also because they are not handling the trauma well.

That wasn't such a respectable decision though - they were all over the place saying he had 'half a life' afterwards. That's pretty disrespectful of othewr disabled people.

That's got fuck all to do with anything. Saying that he had the right to decide that his life was not worth living is not the same as saying that no life would be worth living with the same disability. Sudden loss of capacity that you have taken for granted all your life is a very, very difficult thing to deal with. Some people can cope with it, some people can't. It depends on a huge range of factors which you simply cannot quantify, especially not in order to make some kind of good person/bad person judgement.

FWIW I know a couple of disabled people who wish they had been allowed to die*, and a couple of people with severe depression who despise their depressive parents for wishing this life on them when they knew the condition was hereditary. I know many more people who are disabled or depressive who have no such feelings. Because they're individuals, not fucking robots.

*and this is now a massive, and very difficult, area of debate in medicine with respect to extremely premature babies. A major cause of the increase in learning disabilities over recent decades is the fact that extremely premature kids now survive when they would once have died. Nearly all of these children have severe physical and/or learning disabilities as a result. It's a very emotive topic, but it was prompted by parents coming forward and, very bravely, saying that they didn't think their child had been done any favours, being forced to live with very little quality of life.

I don't get this fucking sanctity of life shit. Sometimes, you just want it to be over, and sometimes, that is a very reasonable point of view.

 

[Mr Moose]

He was a victim of Moat when he was blinded. However his own personality flaws caused him to fail to come to terms with the hand he was dealt, a hand that many other people are also dealt and adapt to without the seething anger displayed by this poor soul.

Harsh. I think we'd all become aware of more personality flaws after being shot in the face and blinded.

 

[fogbat]

He should really have seen his blinding as an opportunity.

 

[kabbes]

He should really have seen his blinding as an opportunity.

A blinding opportunity?

 

[weltweit]

It must be a big deal to come to terms that you have lost all of your sight. I imagine it would be easier to come to terms with if it reduced slowly, perhaps as a result of an illness, rather than going in a moment like in the case of PC Rathbone.

 

[Citizen66]

IMO he had failed before that, when he didn't recover from his injuries where others have. It is an act of gross disrespect to all of us who have, at one time or another, been injured.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

My grandfather spent the last 30 years of his life totally blind. Both is eyes were surgically removed due to tumours in his early 50s. I know what went through his head: Keep on keeping on. I know because we actually discussed disability and what it meant. He found stuff to do with his hands, learned to use his cane, familiarised himself with his environment and got the fuck on with things, even though his life changed markedly from that of an active former career soldier, to more sedentary pursuits.

So what?

You and your grandfather found things to live for, stuff to look forward to, a reason to get out of bed in the morning, despite your disabilities.

This chap evidently didn't.

It's not even to do with the injury really - perfectly physically healthy people kill themselves all the time because they can no longer bear being alive. Who the fuck are you to judge them for it?

 

[fogbat]

A blinding opportunity?

Steady now, Gervais

 

[5t3IIa]

He should really have seen his blinding as an opportunity.

He could have got a nice new dog out of it at least.

 

[past caring]

It's not even to do with the injury really - perfectly physically healthy people kill themselves all the time because they can no longer bear being alive. Who the fuck are you to judge them for it?

Who the fuck is anyone to judge anyone for anything? Why should suicide be exempt from moral judgement?

 

[ymu]

As you are arguing that you speak from authority, can you advise what your life changing injury was?

That's an unfortunately glib response. Were you so confident that you'd score a point with this one that you didn't think to check?

VP's comments come from someone who did get through it, and therefore assumes that anyone who can't is inadequate. Not an uncommon reaction, but it's still shite.

 

[Citizen66]

IMO he had failed before that, when he didn't recover from his injuries where others have. It is an act of gross disrespect to all of us who have, at one time or another, been injured.

I believe it can be traced back earlier to him placing himself in danger. Its an insult to all of us who work hard in keeping ourselves safe.

 

[DotCommunist]

none of these gags are raoul moatly amusing

 

[ymu]

Who the fuck is anyone to judge anyone for anything? Why should suicide be exempt from moral judgement?

Why should it be subject to moral judgement? It's the most deeply personal decision anyone can make. Terrible for those left behind, but you can't argue that their pain on losing someone automatically trumps the pain of the person who wants out. It doesn't, and it shouldn't. That's not what love is, ffs.

 

[Wilf]

none of these gags are raoul moatly amusing

Gazza is waiting in the wings of this thread with a fishing rod. I await his ultimate judgement.

 

[krtek a houby]

4 pages in and you could predict that a so-called RIP thread would degenerate into a point scoring slangfest. It's almost like one of those nasty facebook threads we decry

 

[past caring]

Why should it be subject to moral judgement? It's the most deeply personal decision anyone can make. Terrible for those left behind, but you can't argue that their pain on losing someone automatically trumps the pain of the person who wants out. It doesn't, and it shouldn't. That's not what love is, ffs.

The way things generally go is that those arguing for an exception make their case. I'm failing to see one here - i.e. why this particular act, alone amongst other acts a peron is capable of, should be exempt.

p.s. - may also be worth pointing out that I haven't argued for a particular moral judgement one way or another in this specific case, or for suicide more generally.

ETA: p.p.s - am not convinced your post is one entirely free of moral judgement.

 

[Balbi]

[a string of connected jokes about the blind, with an ironic winking smiley]

 

[past caring]

4 pages in and you could predict that a so-called RIP thread would degenerate into a point scoring slangfest. It's almost like one of those nasty facebook threads we decry

Entirely predictable, too, that you'd be along in fairly short order to indulge in your usual hand-wringing.

 

[silverfish]

He was a victim of Moat when he was blinded. However his own personality flaws caused him to fail to come to terms with the hand he was dealt, a hand that many other people are also dealt and adapt to without the seething anger displayed by this poor soul.

Calling it a personality flaw is a bit of a strong fucking shout..not everyone shrugs their shoulders and gets in training for the next paralympics

 

[Lemon Eddy]

I think this shows your unfamiliarity with the world of disability, padawan. Most disability is navigable, blindness included.

Unfortunately, I am not unfamiliar with the world of disability. My father has been registered blind for 20 years, and my mother was crippled through illness for several years prior to her death. I was her carer, and had to dress, bathe and otherwise look after her. One of the less pleasant examples of that was having clearing her laryngectomy stoma of mucus with a suction pump throughout the day. I was also my wife's carer for the 2 years it took her to recover from a subarachnoid haemorrhage that left her paralysed down the left side of her body. I am no specialist nurse, but I feel I have at least reasonable familiarity with various forms of disability. Whilst we are putting cards on table, I did ask above what the life changing injury you suffered was, as I do think that if you're claiming to have endured something similar enough to the deceased to call him weak, it'd be reasonable to specify what that was.

Navigable is a vague term, that really does not mean much. For instance, Phil Packer lost all feeling and use of his legs, but was able to complete a marathon on crutches. There is the rather famous case of Oscar Pistorius, born without legs, but capable of running 100m on his prosthetics at a time I doubt anyone on this board could match. Clearly aids exist for such disabilities that go far beyond making them "navigable"

Whereas lose your eyes, and really all you have are coping strategies and very limited aids. Braille, audiobooks, white stick, guide dog...these really aren't offering anything even close to the return of abilities that the cases above show. Obviously people can and do adjust, but in this case the deceased had stated he was battling with depression. For whatever reason, it overcame him. That happens to some people, and may not indicate weakness. As a counter point, I have seen it claimed that more Falklands veterans have committed suicide than died in the conflict. Do you feel that all of these people were also weak, and deserve to be scorned?

 

[silverfish]

I'd contend that this appears to be a character trait that police officers injured in the line of duty develop more often than either the military or the general population. There's a thin line between working your way back to the best performance you're capable of with your injury, and refusing to accept the limitations your injury places you under. If you don't accept, then you won't go anywhere except underground or up a chimney.

Where do you get this "character trait that police officers injured in the line of duty develop" from

And where do you pick up that civvies or squaddies are less effected.....

 

[Lemon Eddy]

That's an unfortunately glib response. Were you so confident that you'd score a point with this one that you didn't think to check?

What the fuck is glib about a sincere question from someone who doesn't know VP's backstory? I don't know him from Adam, have never met him, and as far as I can recall have had no discussion with him previously on what injuries he's got. Seriously, he's allowed to refer to it, but you think it's wrong to then ask for more information?

 

[ViolentPanda]

As you are arguing that you speak from authority, can you advise what your life changing injury was?

Limb damage. Bad enough that more than 30 years later I still can't walk, sit or stand without pain, and I'm talking about "take prescription opiates"-strength pain, not "take an aspirin" stuff.
Detailed enough, or would you like the name of the toe-rag who did it, too?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Where do you get this "character trait that police officers injured in the line of duty develop" from

Because the whole "gets injured, stays angry, beats up wife, commits suicide" schtick features regularly in the media.

And where do you pick up that civvies or squaddies are less effected.....

Not "less affected" (that's with an "a", not an "e"), differently in terms of volume/prevalence.

Experience. Attendance at military hospitals, that's where.

 

[krtek a houby]

Entirely predictable, too, that you'd be along in fairly short order to indulge in your usual hand-wringing.

And for you to follow through, natch