Opinion: "The End of Meat Is Here" - NY Times

[NoXion]

Let me repost your own words. Maybe then you'll see how I may have got it 'mixed up'. But I'm still baffled:

Happy to clarify for you.

If I were to say that "my trip to the shops will be accompanied by rain", do you think it would be reasonable to interpret me as meaning that my trip to the shops will "cause" the rain? Or would a more reasonable interpretation be that I saw some dark and heavy clouds on the way? Maybe my understanding of English isn't so great, but the latter is in line with my intended meaning.

what does the bit about increasing the variety of diets got to do with anything here?

People's diets tend to become less diverse as their living standards decrease. Meat tends to be the most expensive part of any meal, even with modern industrial agriculture. So when living standards are attacked because capital would rather make us pay for the majority of the environmental damage which they cause, people will eat less meat. The majority of people won't decide to change their diet because some middle class hippie lectured at them; they'll be forced to change because their bosses tightened their belts for them.

And where do the 'dietary moralists ' come into the wealth equation?

If decreasing living standards are the main reason why "the end of meat is here", then publicly holding up such developments as some kind of triumph would seem to be spectacularly tone-deaf.

 

[editor]

The majority of people won't decide to change their diet because some middle class hippie lectured at them

Who is this 'middle class hippie lecturing people' you're referring to here, or are just just throwing around lazy stereotypes? And why?

Just to be clear, like.

 

[Spymaster]

They do apparently from what I've seen in survival books but I won't be trying them to find out.

I’ve eaten one to test the ‘taste like prawns’ theory. It didn’t. It was more like mushroom but very mild, almost no taste at all.

 

[Favelado]

I've had quite a few mates drastically cut back oi their meat intake recently and they seem pretty happy with the alternatives. My DJ partner went vegan about a year ago and now posts a stream of bloody delicious looking meals on her social media feed. I wish I could be arsed to put as much effort into cooking as she does!

Locally they are about 5 years behind on this though. Alternatives will be more niche and more expensive than in the UK. I'd be really interested in stuff like meat substitutes in the mix of my shopping, as I worry about cholesterol and saturated fat. You're looking at 3 or 4 quid for a pack of two substitute burgers here though. There's some catching up to do. Definitely interested though. I recognize the harm and moral wrong of eating meat. Although, very controversially, I think the most harmful and selfish thing you can do for the planet is to have children. Not my most popular opinion.

 

[The39thStep]

Huge surplus of steak and other cuts that are normally bought up by the restaurant trade at the moment and storage at near capacity.

 

[Spymaster]

Huge surplus of steak and other cuts that are normally bought up by the restaurant trade at the moment and storage at near capacity.

That doesn't seem to be translating to lower supermarket prices yet. At least not that I've noticed.

 

[WouldBe]

I've absolutely no idea what you're on about and little interest in bothering to find out, but if you think getting a landline fitted with broadband is cheaper than getting a mobile then you're too far out there for me.

And none of it has anything to do with the topic of this thread.

When I worked at Ericsson mobile phone factory the T18 phone cost £400 to produce. That wasn't a smartphone and was 20 years ago. If you got one you will be paying for it somehow as the manufacturers and mobile companies aren't going to make a loss on them. It costs nowhere near £400 to get a landline with broadband installed.

 

[The39thStep]

That doesn't seem to be translating to lower supermarket prices yet. At least not that I've noticed.

get to Morrisons Morrisons steps up support for farmers with new restaurant-quality meat - Retail Gazette

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Locally they are about 5 years behind on this though. Alternatives will be more niche and more expensive than in the UK. I'd be really interested in stuff like meat substitutes in the mix of my shopping, as I worry about cholesterol and saturated fat. You're looking at 3 or 4 quid for a pack of two substitute burgers here though. There's some catching up to do. Definitely interested though.

Not sure where you are in the world. If you are in Spain, yes the meat substitutes are not going to be as common and will be more expensive than in the UK, partly because there isn't as much demand for them. However you can still eat very well without mock meats and have very good value and nutritious meals, and I believe you can do that in nearly every country, although it may be a bit more of a challenge in some countries. I was subscribed to a youtube channel of a raw vegan Mexican woman who lives in China. If she can do that in China then It should be possible in most countries with a little bit of investigation and research. I've been vegan for a long time and I hardly have any mock meat burgers. There's an abundance of fruits and vegetables and also an abundance of knowledge and creativity that you can eat a different vegan meal every single day for a year without eating the same meal twice.

The challenge for a lot of people is that it's easier to stick with what you've always done and most people will not change unless they are forced to, which is more often than not some kind of personal health crisis.

I recognize the harm and moral wrong of eating meat. Although, very controversially, I think the most harmful and selfish thing you can do for the planet is to have children. Not my most popular opinion.

We live on a beautiful and very abundant planet, which can easily support the number of people living on it without a single person going hungry. It isn't having children per se that is damaging to the planet it is how we live. We are currently breeding into existence 70 billion land animals per year for "food", which is nearly 10 times the human population. I wonder what kind of impact that has on the planet.

So as far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong with having children and there shouldn't be a stigma associated with it as if it's something bad. If we ate less (or no) meat then there would be much less of a strain on the planets resources.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Really depends on the drug, but honestly I agree with you about cocaine. I do tons of drugs but nobody's growing coca in this country so anyone who has it has bought it from a supply chain that involves people who have mailed parents their kids heads in boxes. It's also the only drug I've ever actually caught heat for for turning down when it was offered to me for free, bunch of people rolling their eyes asking what's wrong with me and getting pretty mad when I told them that the money that was spent on it went to finance death squads and destroy lives. With opiates the supply chain is pharmeceutical companies and fradulent prescriptions, alphabet soup drugs come from weird chemical factories in southeast asia that probably aren't great either but with cocaine I know exactly where it came from and who got it here and I don't like it. I'm not going to go on a crusade about it or judge people much who haven't thought about it (unless you're making fun of me for not taking it), but I've never taken it and never will, unless I happen to be in south america and find some leaves to chew or something.

I am very careful to make sure that the cocaine I snort is ethically sourced. Well, I say try, but have you seen how expensive that stuff is? For now I have to stick to the stuff that fuels psychotic cartels and environmental destruction. The ability to purchase ethically-sourced cocaine is a privilege: never forget that.

And really it’s a structural problem isn’t it? Rather than denouncing cocaine perhaps we should be overthrowing capitalism like I do everyday.

Plus I like the buzz from cocaine. The anti-cocaine people (all of them) are self-righteous so I won’t stop taking cocaine because of that for some reason. It’s a matter of personal choice. I have nothing against people who don’t want to fund murderous drug lords as long as they don’t shove it down everyone’s throat.

And what about prescription medicines? Aren’t they owned by evil big pharma so we all equally have blood on our hands if you think about it.

mmmmm cocaine.

checkmate anti-coketards.

 

[dylanredefined]

i deeply mistrust manufactured meat/dairy substitutes. surely the one thing that's becoming clear is that a processed diet is a poorer one in pretty much every respect. let alone propping up the corporations involved. my vegan kid eats a significantly poorer diet than i do, but reckons it's all good cos she takes supplements.

strikes me that the more recent vegan trends in the uk are leaning towards these mock, "dirty" and processed foods - fake burger with fake cheese and a fake shake, made to taste as shitty as the shitty originals. vs a really good daal and chapatis, for e.g.

Daal and chapatis rather eat Linda McCartney sausages Tbh. Dull mush the sort of food the put me off veganism imho.

 

[editor]

I'd be really interested in stuff like meat substitutes in the mix of my shopping, as I worry about cholesterol and saturated fat. You're looking at 3 or 4 quid for a pack of two substitute burgers here though.

There's loads of much cheaper - and tasty - alternatives available (although I'm not sure where you are).
Eight Richmond sausages are just £2.20 and they taste lovely. Iceland do do decent burgers for around £2 for 2, and there's plenty of equally cheap meat-free alternatives. When I stopped eating meat, I actually found I saved money but it's going to be different for different people.

Cutting down on meat saved people more than £2.8bn last year, survey claims

'There are a number of motivations driving people to alter their behaviour, from ethics, economics, environment, health and accessibility'

www.independent.co.uk

 

[editor]

Daal and chapatis rather eat Linda McCartney sausages Tbh. Dull mush the sort of food the put me off veganism imho.

I think Linda McCartney sausages are pretty awful, tbh. There's loads of better alternatives. It's amazing just how much veggie/vegan food there is in supermarkets compared to only, say, three years ago.

 

[Spymaster]

get to Morrisons Morrisons steps up support for farmers with new restaurant-quality meat - Retail Gazette

Cheers. I went to Morrison’s on this recommendation to be met with this:


Only rump steak on offer (£7.50/kg)

And this is the ‘half price U.K. caught fish section

 

[NoXion]

I think Linda McCartney sausages are pretty awful, tbh. There's loads of better alternatives. It's amazing just how much veggie/vegan food there is in supermarkets compared to only, say, three years ago.

Ah yes, there are the rich and varied flavours to be found in... tofu? No, that can't be right. Even when smoked its flavour is very delicate. Beans? Hmm, no. Nut roast? Not for me at least, I absolutely hated that shit on the one or two occasions when my family had some vegan friends over for dinner, utterly vile.

On the other hand, it's been literally years since I ever ate Linda McCartney sausages, but I do distinctly remember enjoying them.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Huge surplus of steak and other cuts that are normally bought up by the restaurant trade at the moment and storage at near capacity.

I've been having a massive fillet steak as a once a week lockdown treat, and yes, does seem cheaper than usual with a huge selection available.

 

[editor]

Ah yes, there are the rich and varied flavours to be found in... tofu? No, that can't be right. Even when smoked its flavour is very delicate. Beans? Hmm, no. Nut roast? Not for me at least, I absolutely hated that shit on the one or two occasions when my family had some vegan friends over for dinner, utterly vile.

I didn't think people still bothered with nut roast - that's really 80s veggie stuff - and yes, tofu cooked well can be absolutely delicious (and awful if done badly). You can even get it in Michelin starred restaurants!

 

[Favelado]

There's loads of much cheaper - and tasty - alternatives available (although I'm not sure where you are).
Eight Richmond sausages are just £2.20 and they taste lovely. Iceland do do decent burgers for around £2 for 2, and there's plenty of equally cheap meat-free alternatives. When I stopped eating meat, I actually found I saved money but it's going to be different for different people.

Cutting down on meat saved people more than £2.8bn last year, survey claims

'There are a number of motivations driving people to alter their behaviour, from ethics, economics, environment, health and accessibility'

www.independent.co.uk

It's currently different, and more expensive here, but it's a curve, and presumably things will catch up over time. I don't know if I'll end up flexitarian, vegetarian, pescaterian or procrastitarian who never changes anything, but it's all something to think about.

 

[dylanredefined]

I think Linda McCartney sausages are pretty awful, tbh. There's loads of better alternatives. It's amazing just how much veggie/vegan food there is in supermarkets compared to only, say, three years ago.

I agree it's just Dhaal is just that dull imho.

 

[Favelado]

Not sure where you are in the world. If you are in Spain, yes the meat substitutes are not going to be as common and will be more expensive than in the UK, partly because there isn't as much demand for them. However you can still eat very well without mock meats and have very good value and nutritious meals, and I believe you can do that in nearly every country, although it may be a bit more of a challenge in some countries. I was subscribed to a youtube channel of a raw vegan Mexican woman who lives in China. If she can do that in China then It should be possible in most countries with a little bit of investigation and research. I've been vegan for a long time and I hardly have any mock meat burgers. There's an abundance of fruits and vegetables and also an abundance of knowledge and creativity that you can eat a different vegan meal every single day for a year without eating the same meal twice.

The challenge for a lot of people is that it's easier to stick with what you've always done and most people will not change unless they are forced to, which is more often than not some kind of personal health crisis.


We live on a beautiful and very abundant planet, which can easily support the number of people living on it without a single person going hungry. It isn't having children per se that is damaging to the planet it is how we live. We are currently breeding into existence 70 billion land animals per year for "food", which is nearly 10 times the human population. I wonder what kind of impact that has on the planet.

So as far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong with having children and there shouldn't be a stigma associated with it as if it's something bad. If we ate less (or no) meat then there would be much less of a strain on the planets resources.

I'm in Madrid. Thanks for taking the time with the reply. I have taken on board and agree with much of what you say. Except for the stuff about the planet being able to support the current population. We are an absolute cancer. A vegetarian population of 7 billion would still wreak total havoc on the planet. We shouldn't eat meat because it's unethical. but we are destroying the planet in so many selfish ways that we can't pretend that changing just one of our nefarious habits would act as a cure. We're cunts in so many different ways that we'd only be slowing down the rate of destruction, which is of course worth doing.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I didn't think people still bothered with nut roast - that's really 80s veggie stuff - and yes, tofu cooked well can be absolutely delicious (and awful if done badly). You can even get it in Michelin starred restaurants!

I don't think I've ever had a nut roast, so I can't really comment on it, but it appears to be universally disliked. I might have to try one out to see if the hate is justified.

Tofu I don't mind. It's all about the seasoning and texture. Don't have if that regularly but I do enjoy it in a vegetable stir fry once in a while.

Linda McCartney sausages I don't mind once in a while. Iceland's No Bull burgers are ok. The "pretend burger" I have most often is Lidl spicy beanburger. (but deffo NOT the cauliflower or vegetable burgers).

 

[editor]

I'm in Madrid. Thanks for taking the time with the reply. I have taken on board and agree with much of what you say. Except for the stuff about the planet being able to support the current population. We are an absolute cancer. A vegetarian population of 7 billion would still wreak total havoc on the planet. We shouldn't eat meat because it's unethical. but we are destroying the planet in so many selfish ways that we can't pretend that changing just one of our nefarious habits would act as a cure. We're cunts in so many different ways that we'd only be slowing down the rate of destruction, which is of course worth doing.

I've never argued for the world to go vegan, but I do think there's a fairly compelling argument for the planet to reduce its meat consumption - along with a shit load of other things like reducing the rampant exploitation of resources, the cancer of throwaway consumerism and much more. But we've got to start somewhere and with so many alternatives to meat now available, I don't think putting pressure on factory farms and talking about different diets can hurt.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I'm in Madrid. Thanks for taking the time with the reply. I have taken on board and agree with much of what you say.

Hola mi amigo, I'm a part time Andalucian resident and all of my children speak fluent Spanish. I may have spent more of my vegan life there than in the UK, so I know it can be done.

Except for the stuff about the planet being able to support the current population. We are an absolute cancer. A vegetarian population of 7 billion would still wreak total havoc on the planet. We shouldn't eat meat because it's unethical. but we are destroying the planet in so many selfish ways that we can't pretend that changing just one of our nefarious habits would act as a cure. We're cunts in so many different ways that we'd only be slowing down the rate of destruction, which is of course worth doing.

I don't really share the slight misanthropy, although I can understand it to an extent.

I'm an optimist and don't believe that humans are inherently bad or cuntish. A vegan population of 7 billion would be a hell of a lot less taxing on the planet than the current 6.99 billion "omnivores" PLUS the 70 billion land animals/year that they feed on, PLUS the trillions of sea creatures that they feed on. It's not even close.

So it isn't really just changing "one nefarious habit" it has a MAJOR impact and imo it's not just about slowing down the rate of destruction. If we put our minds to it we can easily live comfortably and harmoniously on this planet and cause a LOT less damage than we are currently causing, imo.

 

[Favelado]

Hola mi amigo, I'm a part time Andalucian resident and all of my children speak fluent Spanish. I may have spent more of my vegan life there than in the UK, so I know it can be done.

I don't really share the slight misanthropy, although I can understand it to an extent.

I'm an optimist and don't believe that humans are inherently bad or cuntish. A vegan population of 7 billion would be a hell of a lot less taxing on the planet than the current 6.99 billion "omnivores" PLUS the 70 billion land animals/year that they feed on, PLUS the trillions of sea creatures that they feed on. It's not even close.

So it isn't really just changing "one nefarious habit" it has a MAJOR impact and imo it's not just about slowing down the rate of destruction. If we put our minds to it we can easily live comfortably and harmoniously on this planet and cause a LOT less damage than we are currently causing, imo.

Hola Paolo.
Gracías por tu mensaje y tambien me ha gustado tu optimismo.

I like your worldview better than mine and I would prefer it if you are right.

 

[Favelado]

I've never argued for the world to go vegan, but I do think there's a fairly compelling argument for the planet to reduce its meat consumption - along with a shit load of other things like reducing the rampant exploitation of resources, the cancer of throwaway consumerism and much more. But we've got to start somewhere and with so many alternatives to meat now available, I don't think putting pressure on factory farms and talking about different diets can hurt.

I agree. This is partially about how set in my ways I am, shaking off the paradigm of the world we live in, and whether I'm a decent enough person to make the effort. All of this is food for thought, which I am not using as a pun.

 

[CNT36]

Ah yes, there are the rich and varied flavours to be found in... tofu? No, that can't be right. Even when smoked its flavour is very delicate. Beans? Hmm, no. Nut roast? Not for me at least, I absolutely hated that shit on the one or two occasions when my family had some vegan friends over for dinner, utterly vile.

On the other hand, it's been literally years since I ever ate Linda McCartney sausages, but I do distinctly remember enjoying them.

I had a nice nutroast once. Every other time they've been fucking horrible.

 

[editor]

I agree. This is partially about how set in my ways I am, shaking off the paradigm of the world we live in, and whether I'm a decent enough person to make the effort. All of this is food for thought, which I am not using as a pun.

I'd like to think that if just about the entire world's population can lock itself indoors for two months for the sake of everyone's health, equally big steps could me made to protect the environment - and in that context, skipping a couple of meat dishes every week doesn't seem such a Herculean task.

 

[NoXion]

I'd like to think that if just about the entire world's population can lock itself indoors for two months for the sake of everyone's health, equally big steps could me made to protect the environment - and in that context, skipping a couple of meat dishes every week doesn't seem such a Herculean task.

It's not about how easy or hard it is. It's pointless hair-shirting. Lockdown works only when as many people as possible are doing it, which is why it is so incredibly infuriating to see it being deliberately weakened by the government. If I were to stop eating British beef tomorrow, the Amazon will still be burning, because my personal dietary choices won't change Brazilian agricultural policies. I eat according to three factors - what I want, what I can afford, and my own dislike of manual labour. Those are the areas where I can actually see a difference happening due to my actions.

Yet if this country could enact a permanent import ban on all Brazilian beef products, I could see that doing a fuck of a lot more than any amount of individualised nonsense.

So no, I don't think your drawing comparisons with the lockdown works at all. Especially considering that people are going along with the lockdown on the understanding that it is ultimately a temporary state of affairs. My understanding is that you think these dietary changes should be permanent.

 

[editor]

It's not about how easy or hard it is. It's pointless hair-shirting. Lockdown works only when as many people as possible are doing it, which is why it is so incredibly infuriating to see it being deliberately weakened by the government. If I were to stop eating British beef tomorrow, the Amazon will still be burning, because my personal dietary choices won't change Brazilian agricultural policies. I eat according to three factors - what I want, what I can afford, and my own dislike of manual labour. Those are the areas where I can actually see a difference happening due to my actions.

Yet if this country could enact a permanent import ban on all Brazilian beef products, I could see that doing a fuck of a lot more than any amount of individualised nonsense.

So no, I don't think your drawing comparisons with the lockdown works at all. Especially considering that people are going along with the lockdown on the understanding that it is ultimately a temporary state of affairs. My understanding is that you think these dietary changes should be permanent.

An awful lot of people have made the switch to veggie/vegan diets - or have decided to eat a lot less meat - and that does have a step-by-step impact that capitalism will naturally follow. Case in point: some US dairy farms have now switched to producing non dairy drinks, UK meat producers are now making non-meat products and UK supermarkets suddenly have a shitload more vegan/veggie options.

It's not going to happen overnight, but there is definitely a sizeable move away from the UK's 'meat with just about every meal' tradition going on. and it's never been easier to try non-meat alternatives. Of course, some people will keep on stuffing their faces full of meat most days - some with zero regard for the cruelty involved in some parts of that food chain - but I do think we're on the verge of a huge shift in the UK. But I could well be wrong - this is all gut feeling and anecdotes from me!

 

[cybershot]

I wonder how many people don't bother with these type of threads, myself included, because the same people over and over get into a bun fight.

It would be interesting to have a vegan/veggie/meat discussion thread, where all the regular bum fighters are banned from it.