Favelado
J'adore South Shore
Here I am, bringing
Opinion: "The End of Meat Is Here" - NY Times
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Here I am, bringing
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
Do you eat raw flesh/meat then?
Or, maybe, just maybe, it's seasoned, marinated, coated and or cooked with herbs and other condiments...
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hiraethified
Well this one seems to be doing OK, no?
cybershot
Well-Known Member
I gave up after post 13. I rarely get past the first page on these.
editor
hiraethified
So why come back on post 150 to complain when you've not read the last 137 posts?
cybershot
Well-Known Member
So why come back on post 150 to complain when you've not read the last 137 posts?
Come back? It was the first time I read the thread I can't interject my comment after post 13 instead unless there's a way how and I magically don;t know. And i'd rather not read 137 posts of bum fighting between the regular vegan/meat experts. I then replied to people quoting me only.
Jesus. These threads are so toxic. Which is the point I was making.
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souljacker
innit
I'm very happy to cut down on my meat eating if it will save the planet. Where I have a problem is people who describe meat eating as being evil and animals need to be freed from their slavery and be allowed to live their best life or whatever. I simply don't give a fuck about them really. The only reason I want abbotoirs and farms to rear their animals properly and kill them humanely is that it produces a better product. We should be looking to make all industries in the world more environmentally friendly but I'm sure we can do that without completely stopping everyone eating meat and dairy.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
I am a carnivore, but I mean, that is pretty much an evil opinion.
souljacker
innit
Why? They are part of the food chain. I eat them. That's all there is to it. I don't want to inflict pain on them for no reason but I want to kill them so I can eat them.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
We're the first species to have fully-developed abstract intelligence and the consequent ability to separate ourselves from primitive notions of the food chain. I don't buy this as a reason. I eat meat, I like it, and feeling bad about it doesn't really do any good at all, but it's indefensible from a moral point of view.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
There are alternatives, obviously choose what you want to do and eat, but paying* for animals to get murdered so you can eat them IS inflicting pain on them for a reason, for you to eat them.
*unless you break their necks or slit their throats yourself of course
souljacker
innit
It's the success of our farming practices that allowed us to separate from the notion of the food chain though. The moral point of view that says its indefensible is a new moral code and one that I don't follow.
I'm ok with inflicting pain on them to eat them (and have done myself on a few occasions). Do it quick and inflict as little pain as possible though.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
I went to the local Lidl and bought two vegan curries, that were both healthy and cheap. They should taste alright. I bought two bean burgers for 2 euros as well (less convinced these will be nice - look shite). I'm currently in town so maybe the trendier locals may have generated some demand as they did have a range of products. When I inevitably move back to a normal barrio, I think that's going to be harder to find.
I bought some chicken too, I confess. But lets see if I can at least cut down my consumption to making meat-based meals a smaller part of my diet.
I bought some chicken too, I confess. But lets see if I can at least cut down my consumption to making meat-based meals a smaller part of my diet.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Does that make it ok then? Or at least take some of the wind out of your sails?
PaoloSanchez
Well-Known Member
Wait...what do you mean IF I am right?
Seriously though, there are a lot of good people in the world. Many of us know what is right and what is wrong and many still choose to do "wrong" things because of habit, peer pressure, tradition, culture, addiction...etc.
Smoking, alcohol consumption are common practices that most people know to be harmful and yet they still do it. Improvements will come if we can align our actions with what we know to be right and with our morals. At this moment in time too many people are not willing to do that unless they are forced to.
I believe that there are quite a lot of people who are not currently vegan but who know in their hearts that the vegan position makes sense morally and ethically, and choose to "look the other way" so that they don't have to face the reality of their food choices. It is amongst the more compassionate of those people that we are more likely to find the next generation of vegans. The "die hards" that don't give a shit about animals and are unconcerned about them being killed in their billions will double down on weak excuses for not going vegan and say things like "BACON!". Probably not much value to be had in discussions with such folk.
It may not happen in my lifetime, but in the future hopefully the word "vegan" will be obsolete. In the same way that we don't have a word for people who don't eat human flesh, when not eating animal flesh becomes the norm, we won't need a word for that either, and the cannibals and "carnists"? will be a tiny minority.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Good post.
I’m definitely a ‘choose to look the other way’ person. I try and not think too closely about factory farming when I’m eating maccies nuggets for example as I bet they’re factory farmed. What I would do tho (and can now afford to) is to spend an extra quid or two on getting free range ones. But the option isn’t always available. It’s actually hard to get free range chicken in Asda I find. They do stock it (whole ones) but they’re often sold out. And if you want thighs or breast forget it. A good place to start in the uk would be here I’d suggest. Cos I’d buy it, I want to buy it, I can afford it, but I cannot be arsed to go to a separate shop cos I’ve got too much else on my plate.Wait...what do you mean IF I am right?
Seriously though, there are a lot of good people in the world. Many of us know what is right and what is wrong and many still choose to do "wrong" things because of habit, peer pressure, tradition, culture, addiction...etc.
Smoking, alcohol consumption are common practices that most people know to be harmful and yet they still do it. Improvements will come if we can align our actions with what we know to be right and with our morals. At this moment in time too many people are not willing to do that unless they are forced to.
I believe that there are quite a lot of people who are not currently vegan but who know in their hearts that the vegan position makes sense morally and ethically, and choose to "look the other way" so that they don't have to face the reality of their food choices. It is amongst the more compassionate of those people that we are more likely to find the next generation of vegans. The "die hards" that don't give a shit about animals and are unconcerned about them being killed in their billions will double down on weak excuses for not going vegan and say things like "BACON!". Probably not much value to be had in discussions with such folk.
It may not happen in my lifetime, but in the future hopefully the word "vegan" will be obsolete. In the same way that we don't have a word for people who don't eat human flesh, when not eating animal flesh becomes the norm, we won't need a word for that either, and the cannibals and "carnists"? will be a tiny minority.
All this animal rights extremist talk about murder though is very off putting. Murder is a word that is very clearly defined as the unlawful killing of one human by another. I just find it deliberately inflammatory to apply it to this debate. Anyone doing that is quite literally just looking for a fight and has no serious intention of changing anyone’s mind.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
You can get vegan chicken nuggets. I had them for dinner tonight. £2.50 from Sainsburies for 20. 100% Torture and slaughter free too.
I was talking about maccies tho. And I was talking about free range chicken. So you’ve missed the point a bit.
(wth is vegan chicken made of? quorn? I do actually love quorn).
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
Who's saying farming is "indefensible"? and a little pain is still pain, which if you wanted to avoid you could
souljacker
innit
See favelado's post that I quoted. Not farming.
And I'm not worried too much about the pain really. Not enough to want to avoid it and not eat meat anyway.
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
I go away for the weekend and come back to an Urban masacree. 
Are those permabans?
Are those permabans?
PaoloSanchez
Well-Known Member
The reality is that vast majority of the worlds meat, dairy and eggs comes from factory farming, although it's interesting how many people will claim that they are prepared to spend extra to eat "higher welfare" "free range", the reality is that the majority don't. (and don't really care that much) People are used to heavily subsidised animal products, and the animal industry is used to the economies of scale and profits associated with factory farming, so there's not much of an incentive to change any of that. You have admitted that you are one of the many people who really do "look the other way" and would prefer not to see or hear anything about what happens on the other side of the abattoir walls, however things are gradually changing and with the abundance of information out there, it is harder to avoid the harsh "realities" forever. People are gradually waking up and vegan interest is gaining momentum and in the last few years a lot has changed. (not fast enough for me, but it's still encouraging to see).
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Since the other thread's been closed, I'll use this one to tell you to go fuck yourselves for your moronic ban spree.
PaoloSanchez
Well-Known Member
Cue Ini Kamoze - "...out in the street they call it murder."
I personally will make no apology for speaking out about the rights BILLIONS of animals abused and killed by us humans, and as far as I'm concerned that is NOT an extremist position, in fact it's quite the opposite. Similar to the "look the other way" phenomena discussed above, people would rather we use non threatening euphemistic language, I guess it's so they don't feel so bad about what's really going on. If I were to put myself in the animals position, I would most definitely call it murder.
Ok, so some of the dictionary definitions say that "murder" only applies to humans killing other humans. Well it's about time it also applied to humans killing animals unnecessarily. In my experience most of the "fighting" comes from those upset by words that accurately describe the real horrors involved, and would rather use softer more comforting words.
As far as changing people minds is concerned, I personally do not burden myself with that, it's up to people to change their own minds, when they are ready to do so. What I will do, when I'm in the mood for it and in the right setting, is share my perspective on these issues, then it's up to others what they do with the information. Sometimes that causes people to pause for thought, sometimes it will be ignored and sometimes people get angry. I can't control how people respond and I would rather not use watered down language just because some people don't like it.
It's time to get real.
I think Marc sums it up quite nicely...
Why can only humans be murdered?
"It's well known that the language we use to refer to nonhuman animals (animals) can be used to hide or sanitise the often rather egregious ways in which we use, harm, and kill them. Words such as euthanize, dispatch, harvest, and cull are frequently used to refer to instances in which people with different motivations and intentions, kill healthy animals, usually "in the name of humans." It's about time these polite words are changed to the harsher word, murder, because that's what it really is."
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Wow!
Some pukka thlamethrower bannings going on here and for once I wasn't involved.
Can I take Jeff Robinson to task about his silly "anti-coketards" post or will I get a whack too?
Leaving aside your appendage of "tards" as a slur on mental health and those perhaps more challenged than you in that way, Jeff (don't know why you got away with that considering what others have been banned for), your post is ridiculous.
You support every argument meant either way so your "checkmate" is absurd.
There are many threads on here in which vegans are completely unchallenged. It's the ones like this that are clearly provocative that result in bunfights!
There's another thread elsewhere that's been started in seemingly good faith with every dissenter banned or warned; then this one which is an obvious troll, with the same results.
Why not have a subforum for militant vegans to post in where they can post as many provocative headlines as they like, and the rest of us can just stick it on ignore and never get involved?
All 4 of them could knock themselves bandy!
I guess I'm going to be banned for this, so see around.
Some pukka thlamethrower bannings going on here and for once I wasn't involved.
Can I take Jeff Robinson to task about his silly "anti-coketards" post or will I get a whack too?
Leaving aside your appendage of "tards" as a slur on mental health and those perhaps more challenged than you in that way, Jeff (don't know why you got away with that considering what others have been banned for), your post is ridiculous.
You support every argument meant either way so your "checkmate" is absurd.
There are many threads on here in which vegans are completely unchallenged. It's the ones like this that are clearly provocative that result in bunfights!
There's another thread elsewhere that's been started in seemingly good faith with every dissenter banned or warned; then this one which is an obvious troll, with the same results.
Why not have a subforum for militant vegans to post in where they can post as many provocative headlines as they like, and the rest of us can just stick it on ignore and never get involved?
All 4 of them could knock themselves bandy!
I guess I'm going to be banned for this, so see around.
PaoloSanchez
Well-Known Member
Oh...the fellas been banned? 
I didn't notice that there was carnage going on elsewhere.
I didn't notice that there was carnage going on elsewhere.
cybershot
Well-Known Member
Exactly what I was thinking, but I guess people like myself click new posts since last visit so sub forums wouldn't help, unless users can ignore a particular section? Or just be banned from them full stop.
The whole meat vs veg thing is yawn on here, and people just need respect what ever the other person wants to do as well as their opinions, instead of trying to brainwash/troll whatever it is.
krtek a houby
Anger is Hi-NRG
Oh...the fellas been banned?
View attachment 214528
I didn't notice that there was carnage going on elsewhere.
It's quite the slaughterhouse.
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