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#occupy London....

Rutita1 said:
Please put a picture of yourself up so I can have a go!
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brad-pitt.jpg
 
paolo999 said:
Looks like I'm doing a talk. It's not directly related but might inspire a few people. Or dogs. Or pigeons.

http://www.bankofideas.org.uk/events/event/urban-exploration-discovering-abandoned-buildings/
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Well, that went ok. At first it looked like I'd just have one person, then ended up with about twenty, in a side-room so people had to make an effort to find it.

The following gig, in the main area, was the What Is Anarchism session. I was gagging for a smoke & a pint, so a two hour session was going to be more than I could manage, but the speaker sounded very good. No red mist rantiness at all. Maybe urban has given me a unfairly poor perception of anarchists.

I might put in a plea for a repeat session (they had loads in for it, so looks like the demand is there).
 
Has anyone seen this pile of dishonest poo from Dan Hannan?

7. Let’s tackle the idea that being on the Left means being on the side of ordinary people, while being on the Right means defending privileged elites. It’s hard to think of a single tax, or a single regulation, that doesn’t end up privileging some vested interest at the expense of the general population. The reason governments keep growing is because of what economists call ‘dispersed costs and concentrated gains’: people are generally more aware the benefits we receive than of the taxes they pay.
8. Capitalism, with all its imperfections, is the fairest scheme yet tried. In a system based on property rights and free contract, people succeed by providing an honest service to others. Bill Gates became rich by enriching hundreds of millions of us: I am typing these words using one of his programmes. He gained from the exchange (adding fractionally to his net worth), and so did I (adding to my convenience). In a state-run system, by contrast, third parties get to hand out the goodies.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...-evil-capitalists-really-think/#disqus_thread
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Why do you think its dishonest - couldn't it just be an opinion you disagree with? :confused:

I just meant those two points, by the way - not read the whole thing yet.
 
GEN.Eccentric said:
You dont think that Hannan is backing up his opinions with self serving lies then?
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I think that in too many cases in his article he's not backing his opinions up with anything at all, especially points 1, 6 and 7.

Plus, point 8 is predicated on a false premise.
 
ddraig said:
know it is from Bristol camp but is to do with vulnerable people and drunks at camp
http://www.occupybristoluk.org/alcoholics-and-drug-users-are-not-bad-people/
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hmmm..
that was a good piece.. though 'blatant title' is blatant
amongst others i have been tasked on on producing a 'best practices guideline' with 'street folk' etc.. basically a heap of people with chaotic lives at the mo but are finding some stability within the #occupy movement....
*will start a new thread on this issue so as to not disrail asap*

Any reports from the London/UK #occupy recently?
 
8ball said:
Why do you think its dishonest - couldn't it just be an opinion you disagree with? :confused:

I just meant those two points, by the way - not read the whole thing yet.
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No. Just taking one point, how has Bill Gates "enriched" anyone apart from himself?

This is sub-Randian.
Capitalism, with all its imperfections, is the fairest scheme yet tried.
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How does he know it's "the fairest scheme ever tried"? Has he tried any others? No.

Hannan's opinions are rarely well-informed.
 
AKA pseudonym said:
hmmm..
that was a good piece.. though 'blatant title' is blatant
amongst others i have been tasked on on producing a 'best practices guideline' with 'street folk' etc.. basically a heap of people with chaotic lives at the mo but are finding some stability within the #occupy movement....
*will start a new thread on this issue so as to not disrail asap*
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do it!
 
8ball said:
Why do you think its dishonest - couldn't it just be an opinion you disagree with? :confused:

I just meant those two points, by the way - not read the whole thing yet.
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w/r/t the first point, the weight of history bears out the "left = pro-the masses", "right = pro-establishment" argument, so Hannan should at least acknowledge that history doesn't support his contentions.

w/r/t the second point, I suspect that just about anyone reading Hannan's peroration can think of numerous incidences under capitalism where capitalists have thrived without providing an "honest service" to their customers.
 
GEN.Eccentric said:
You dont think that Hannan is backing up his opinions with self serving lies then?
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He's doing something even more cretinous - he's backing up his opinions with his ideology. Relying on a belief system for truths can often feel liberating to the individual, but can render them incapable of taking a disinterested view.
 
nino_savatte said:
No. Just taking one point, how has Bill Gates "enriched" anyone apart from himself?

This is sub-Randian.

How does he know it's "the fairest scheme ever tried"? Has he tried any others? No.
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It isn't. Randians scorn concepts like 'fairness.'
 
' Mark Edwards
So, when is it that you all are going to stand up against certain men and women we all know have hijacked the St Pauls occupation for their own, quite dangerous needs?
Or am I, as one of the few black occupiers, meant to recognise the fact that we just aren't wanted? And the only time you want to see us is at 2 in the morning walking around as part of night watch or tranquility, so that you all ca...n have a good nights sleep, while we have to deal with the racism that has clearly raised its ugly head in this occupation?!?!
I'm disgusted and ashamed to think that while I attempt to help a cause that I truly believe in, you allow certain characters to swan around making covert videos and recordings that are then sold to the press, check online, damning everything we have all done since 15\10!
No response or reply is needed to this post, my answer was given when I was left to the mercy of a racist and the police, he says, I work for, and then spent 19 hours in custody! All because I wouldn't allow a drunken coked up banker to assault a female occupier!

You should be ashamed of yourselves, truly ashamed!'

Anyone know anything about this, is it genuine or a crank? if its the former , its worrying...
 
ViolentPanda said:
w/r/t the first point, the weight of history bears out the "left = pro-the masses", "right = pro-establishment" argument, so Hannan should at least acknowledge that history doesn't support his contentions.
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Yes, that's not well backed up. There's a lot there that isn't. I'm not sure stating opinions without backing them up properly makes them dishonest, though.

ViolentPanda said:
w/r/t the second point, I suspect that just about anyone reading Hannan's peroration can think of numerous incidences under capitalism where capitalists have thrived without providing an "honest service" to their customers.
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Yes, though he tries to give an example of 'non-zero sum' trade as an example of how not all trades have to be exploitative in nature (whether you agree with the particular example is a different matter).

I don't see any reason from the article (and I'm just going on the article), to believe that these aren't honestly-held opinions. They may not be, but I've seen these arguments deployed in good faith before.
 
nino_savatte said:
No kidding. Hence my use of the compound "sub-Randian". It's actually a variation on Rand's notion that capitalism is the "most moral system ever devised".
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At the same time as scorning morality.

Hannan's is a common viewpoint these days, and sounds plausible when you consider that Soviet-style socialism-the only alternative that's been tried- was in many respects more unfair than capitalism. Of course the likes of Hannan use this as a cover for deepening neo-liberalism, which is steadily stripping capitalism of everything that was put there to prevent it being simply the rule of bandits.
 
Pickman's model said:
are you saying that none of the companies which have used microsoft products have ever turned a profit?

are you honestly saying that none of the people working for microsoft have got richer as a result?
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It's by no means a universal, which is what Hannan was suggesting. I haven't been enriched by Bill Gates. How about you?
 
nino_savatte said:
It's by no means a universal, which is what Hannan was suggesting. I haven't been enriched by Bill Gates. How about you?
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I guess there's also the argument that if even if your life has been enriched by the existence of Microsoft products, how much of that in total is really down to Bill Gates.
 
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