Obama online team hired to help fight BNP

[Azrael]

a) This is no longer part of their policy. He'll never say that it is.

Now, I'm loathed to visit their website, but the last time I was there, there was a clear reference to "kindred white Indo-European stock" or some such racialist twaddle, and a policy of voluntary repatriation. Have these now gone?

Even if they have, that they existed could be raised with Mr Griffin, and his preferred method of dealing with "the problem" explored.

He'll either refuse to answer or stonewall, which looks dodgy as heck, or he'll be forced to say that he's happy for ethnic minorities to live in Britain, which will destroy his support-base amongst the knuckle-dragging racialist fraternity.

b) various members have consistently been exposed as criminals etc and their votes have still continued to grow. It doesn't put people off - the asumption that it will because it should is not helpful. In reality, the 'epoxse them' tactic has been mosty consistently applied and argued for in exactly the period of their (and the historical far rights) greatest ever success. It simply doesn't work.

Where is it exposed, and how effectively? The BNP can dismiss "a few bad apples": if a clear pattern of criminality is laid out to Mr Griffin's face, it might have more effect.

Are you referring to the rise of the Nazi Party above? If so, conditions Weimer Germany make comparison with 2009 Britain nigh-on impossible.

c) he can defend his policies very capably against liberal and mainstream assumptions […]

That's why I said they should have Mr Hitchens do the savaging. No one can mistake him for anything other than a staunch conservative, and Mr Griffin would flounder. Only Nixon could go to China.

 

[butchersapron]

Now, I'm loathed to visit their website, but the last time I was there, there was a clear reference to "kindred white Indo-European stock" or some such racialist twaddle, and a policy of voluntary repatriation. Have these now gone?

Even if they have, that they existed could be raised with Mr Griffin, and his preferred method of dealing with "the problem" explored.

He'll either refuse to answer or stonewall, which looks dodgy as heck, or he'll be forced to say that he's happy for ethnic minorities to live in Britain, which will destroy his support-base amongst the knuckle-dragging racialist fraternity.

Where is it exposed, and how effectively? The BNP can dismiss "a few bad apples": if a clear pattern of criminality is laid out to Mr Griffin's face, it might have more effect.

Are you referring to the rise of the Nazi Party above? If so, conditions Weimer Germany make comparison with 2009 Britain nigh-on impossible.

That's why I said they should have Mr Hitchens do the savaging. No one can mistake him for anything other than a staunch conservative, and Mr Griffin would flounder. Only Nixon could go to China.

There's a huge difference between a compulsory repatriation policy and one that simply says it supports voluntary repatriation of a tiny amount of recent immigrants. It's simply not something that you're going to catch NG out on. It was actually amongst the very first things he changed after winning the leadership in the late 90s as he was aware of the potential damage a compulsory repatriation policy could do. Many people who don't see themselves as racists or even on the far right support voluntary repatriation. And more ot the point the voluntary repatriation policy doesn't actually form part of their major approach except as it relates to Muslims - and NG would have a field day forcing the other panellists to agree that they also support kicking out terrorists or whoever it's framed - or even better, saying that they don't.

The last 10 years has seen many many exposures of BNP members for violence, criminal activity etc - in pretty much all the national newspapers, and certainly repeatdly on national TV. I don't know if you remember the two failed and counter-productive trials for racial incitement that NG and Mark Collet faced as the result of one of these BBC programs.

Anyway, this 'expose them' tactic has been a constant of anti-BNP activity over the last 10 years - in that period they've gone from zero seats and a tiny national profile to 55 seats and are now nationally known, and have achieved consecutive largest ever national votes for a far right party, a massively increased membership and a whole range of other performance indicators (the historical far right before this only had only ever won 3 seats in its entire history).

This is leaving aside the simple step of pointing out that the mainstream parties have very many more serious criminals in their ranks. It doesn’t matter if it’s proportionally greater or not, you mention a lib-dem kiddy fiddler the whole context changes. Believe it or not NG knows how to turn these arguments against those who use them - he knows how to deal with approaches like this. He should do seeing as it’s pretty much all that’s been thrown at him the last decade. Water of a ducks back and of no consequence to their potential voters.

(Incidentally the BNP vote has actually gone up since the latest 'expose them' leak in November. They're now averaging 21.7% as opposed to 12.3% before the leak - to be fair that's only in 8 wards though, but in those wards they've been 10 or less votes from actually winning in 3 of them)

No, I’m not talking about Germany, I’m talking about here and now.

I don’t think the people voting BNP or disenfranchised from the mainstream parties give two shits about Hirtchen’s challenging or catching out NG on question time. It’s largely irrelevant and as I said, NG will be talking through the windows anyway.

 

[Azrael]

The last 10 years has seen many many exposures of BNP members for violence, criminal activity etc - in pretty much all the national newspapers, and certainly repeatdly on national TV. I don't know if you remember the two failed and counter-productive trials for racial incitement that NG and Mark Collet faced as the result of one of these BBC programs.

Only too well. I posted about it at the time. It depends how you expose them: through engagement; or prosecution. Prosecuting Mr Griffin and Mr Collett on fantastically weak charges relating to their view of a religion was asinine in the extreme, not to mention being totalitarian.

Now, either the BNP's profile has risen because of their exposure, or because they're a lightening rod for general discontent with politicians. That UKIP were doing even better before they started imploding makes me suspect that it's largely the latter.

From one of Peter Hitchen's encounters with Mr Griffin:-

"Mr Griffin, affable and frank on most topics, goes very stiff and strange when asked about the party regulation which declares that membership is open only to those of British or 'closely kindred European descent'... His hands tremble slightly as he refuses to say what he thinks about this creepy stipulation...He explains that the definition of 'closely kindred' is a 'grey area', which is one way of putting it. Greeks can join but Turks can't. Bosnian Serbs can but Bosnian Muslims can't.

In fact, Muslims in general can't, because, says the BNP, their first loyalty is to Islam rather than Britain. 'Some members think it should be changed. I don't comment on it because it's a divisive issue,' intones Mr. Griffin, quite unaware of how ludicrous this statement is, coming from the leader of a movement which is not known for avoiding divisive issues." (Peter Hitchens, The Mail on Sunday Review, February 9th 2003)

Now, I think Mr Griffin being interrogated remorselessly on primetime in this manner could be very effective. He ran rings around Mr Paxman because Mr Paxman arrogantly assumed the Mr Griffin was a numbskull, had a shockingly bad grasp of the law, and displayed his ignorance to someone who holds a law degree from Cambridge. Mr Paxman also showed extreme reluctance to engage with Mr Griffin's points, which made him look evasive and incompetent.

If people can be made afraid of Mr Griffin, they can be persuaded to vote for someone else.

 

[butchersapron]

Only too well. I posted about it at the time. It depends how you expose them: through engagement; or prosecution. Prosecuting Mr Griffin and Mr Collett on fantastically weak charges relating to their view of a religion was asinine in the extreme, not to mention being totalitarian.

Now, either the BNP's profile has risen because of their exposure, or because they're a lightening rod for general discontent with politicians. That UKIP were doing even better before they started imploding makes me suspect that it's largely the latter.

From one of Peter Hitchen's encounters with Mr Griffin:-



Now, I think Mr Griffin being interrogated remorselessly on primetime in this manner could be very effective. He ran rings around Mr Paxman because Mr Paxman arrogantly assumed the Mr Griffin was a numbskull, had a shockingly bad grasp of the law, and displayed his ignorance to someone who holds a law degree from Cambridge. Mr Paxman also showed extreme reluctance to engage with Mr Griffin's points, which made him look evasive and incompetent.

If people can be made afraid of Mr Griffin, they can be persuaded to vote for someone else.

It doesn't matter how you 'expose them' if people don't care about what you're exposing them for. If people did care then this approach would have made a dent by now. It hasn't. In a country where over 40% of males have a criminal conviction people don't really care if you've been in some stupid fight.

I think you're being a bit naive if you think people decide how vote or who they become politically active with on things like Hitchens interviewing NG. Anyway, no offence but this has taken me down a cul-de-sac i didn't really intend to go down. I think this question is an utter irrelevance really.

 

[Azrael]

I think you're being a bit naive if you think people decide how vote or who they become politically active with on things like Hitchens interviewing NG.

I live in an area which is prime territory for the BNP, and have spoken to many people who've voted for this ragbag party. As I said, some are unreformed racial bigots. They'd cheer on Mr Griffin if he did the goosestep around Mr Paxman's chair. But many others genuinely thought the BNP to be a nationalist party, and refused to believe that Mr Griffin was a racial bigot. ("They're twisting his words," etc.) The nasty and idiotic trial for saying rude things about Islam confirmed their views.

The second group clearly did care what I propose Mr Griffin be exposed for. He knows these are not the sort of people to delve into the BNP's site to find the bit about "kindred stock". It was well hidden when I last checked, and even if you find it, the wording is suitably vague if you want it to be.

At the very least, the sort of exposure I suggest would dent in Mr Griffin's martyr complex. It could hardly be worse than the sort of exposure he gets now, where journalists dance around him and his people, looking for all the world like they're scared to make a move.

 

[cesare]

Azrael, you should also bear in mind that on NG's blog he describes the series of talks he gave in the US in Nov 2007 re how to position those policies in an acceptable manner.

 

[TomPaine]

In a country where over 40% of males have a criminal conviction people don't really care if you've been in some stupid fight.

.
Blimey, and does that include arrests with no conviction/cautions, or is that charged and convicted? I never realised it was that high, but it really does not surprise me.

 

[butchersapron]

.
Blimey, and does that include arrests with no conviction/cautions, or is that charged and convicted? I never realised it was that high, but it really does not surprise me.

I took that figure from the Jospeh Rowntree foundation, hope i understood it correctly:

The life-time likelihood of acquiring at least one criminal conviction is greater than commonly realised. More than four out of ten males and one in ten females are likely to be found guilty or cautioned for an indictable offence at some point during their lives.

Link

 

[Azrael]

Azrael, you should also bear in mind that on NG's blog he describes the series of talks he gave in the US in Nov 2007 re how to position those policies in an acceptable manner.

Exactly, he's worked carefully to disguise his true views: he clearly believes it would hurt him and his party if he's shown to be an unreformed racial bigot.

As for people not caring about convictions, the Joey Barton case is illustrative. Many people were disgusted at the manner of Mr Barton's crimes (particularly his continuing to attack a Manchester City team-mate who he'd just beaten unconscious). There was a lot of "a fight outside a pub is one thing, but that's sick". BNP members have convictions for some very nasty offences well beyond a scuffle on a Saturday night and a fine down the magistrate's court.

 

[Azrael]

"The life-time likelihood of acquiring at least one criminal conviction is greater than commonly realised. More than four out of ten males and one in ten females are likely to be found guilty or cautioned for an indictable offence at some point during their lives."

Yes, but "indictable offences" can be very minor and not necessarily violent. Any theft is technically an "indictable offence", and you occasionally get people demanding crown court trials for nicking a pack of razorblades.

 

[TomPaine]

butchers> Thanks for that. That really does not surprise me at all. Society his hardly geared to avoid conflicts with the state whether it be stupid cannabis laws or over eager police with their Drunk and Disordely laws. When you look at it from this perspective, it is easy to see why a lot of the BNP vote base i.e. dissafected members of society wouldn't care if somebody had a cuation for fighting etc. as they have probably been there themselves. Some journo tutting and moralising over that if anything is more likely to make somebody vote for "somebody like me".

 

[TomPaine]

Yes, but "indictable offences" can be very minor and not necessarily violent. Any theft is technically an "indictable offence", and you occasionally get people demanding crown court trials for nicking a pack of razorblades.

Or stupid stuff like swearing in earshot of a plastic copper, being drunk (but not violent), the wind blowing a breadcrust of your picnic table onto the floor, being "accused" of dropping an apple core etc......

 

[Azrael]

Some journo tutting and moralising over that if anything is more likely to make somebody vote for "somebody like me".

Which is why I'd want Mr Paxman and his ilk kept well clear of Mr Hitchens! Those who would support the BNP need to be shown that Mr Griffin is nothing like them. (He went to Peterhouse, Cambridge, for one thing.)

I don't think an "exposé" is a magic wand against the BNP: I believe it would shrink their support base considerably, but what we really need is a party that offers conservative policies on law and order, national independence, and the role of the state, without resorting to the idiocy of racialism. Most of those posting here would not support such a party, and I wouldn't expect them to, but it would be very much preferable to the BNP.

 

[TomPaine]

Isn't that what parties like the English Democrats effecively are though? They are pro-English parliament, St Georges Day etc. but have candidates standing in elections from a variety of backgrounds, one chap is from Kenya, Jewish members, some people of obvious Asian decent etc. (although they have had some bad eggs which is sad really).

It doesn't seem to have stopped the rise of the BNP though does it. Maybe when 40% of the populace are criminalised for trivial matters, section of the public feel alienated, feel nobody listens to them on issues regarding immigration etc. then it is little wonder that groups like the BNP are going to rise to power.

 

[Azrael]

Isn't that what parties like the English Democrats effecively are though?

I'd never heard of them! And I've never seen their candidate on a ballot (in either London or Cambridge). It's not just a question of setting up a party: it's about how efficient you are at publicity, and how many candidates you field. The BNP are very well organised; I can't comment on the English democrats, but they don't seem to be very big.

There's also the problem of the Tories. Politics is largely tribal. So long as the Conservative Party exists, many people will vote for them out of tribal loyalty. The Cameroon Notting Hill Tories are as remote as any of the others. Their continued existence is stopping any serious conservative movement getting off the ground.

 

[Azrael]

Hmmm, hang on, I might have seen them in the London mayoral election.

*Checks*

Yep, their candidate dropped out, after he replaced the loathesome Garry Bushell. To be frank they look like a bit of a tiddlywink operation. And all the tub-thumbing about English independence makes them look single-issue.

 

[TomPaine]

Their continued existence is stopping any serious conservative movement getting off the ground.

This is effectively what Sean Gabb the Libertarian commentator said. He wrote an interesting Libertarian/Conservative orientated paper about the subject which name escapes me at the moment.

As for the Eng Dems, they stood in May in the election in London in every borough. They also had that idiot O'Connor standing for them, then proceeded to get into a squabble with him etc.

 

[TomPaine]

Yep, their candidate dropped out, after he replaced the loathesome Garry Bushell. To be frank they look like a bit of a tiddlywink operation. And all the tub-thumbing about English independence makes them look single-issue.

They don't actually support English independence but rather devolution currently. I think they shot themselves in the foot to be honest. They had a very broad selection of political bents in their membership and certain iditos in the party seem to have alienated the broader support base over the past year.

 

[Azrael]

Yep, yet another Mickey Mouse party with the obligatory D-list celebrity up front. No wonder I forgot about them.

The BNP are very good at appearing to be a serious political party. That's what makes them so dangerous.

 

[brasicritique]

The obama campaign was extremely succesful, and made active political people out of those who'd never contributed or campaigned before. What makes you think it won't work here, for this campaign?

well imo because the bnp are not targeting abc1s they would like to have abc1s voting for them however they are concentrating on filling the vacum that newshamebore , and the wider left have created and given the way americans on these boards seem to think the country is like america this will only make things worse imo this company would be better employed at trying to get social mobility working or working to tackle inequality but oh no that would be to easy so instead what we will basically see is a glossy cool didactic version of white middle class people telling poor white working class people that they are rascists and that is it and that is if things go well the worst thing that could happen imo is for the americans to make a worsening situation worse by cranking up exsisting tensions imo the only way to fight the far right is to tackle inequality but as i have laready said that would be to easy

 

[lostexpectation]

what's this

The software means campaigners can then track who opens the emails, where they are sent and what happens when they arrive at the other end - tailoring future emails to groups and individuals


alot of the sucess of american internet politics is really just about getting small amounts of money off lots of people rather then activism

 

[Taxamo Welf]

The obama campaign was extremely succesful, and made active political people out of those who'd never contributed or campaigned before. What makes you think it won't work here, for this campaign?

you bes be trollin yo

 

[derf]

I think it may be a good idea if Nick the Griff did end up in Europe.
Yes, seriously.
Firstly the europarl a bit of a joke anyway and he just would not be able to resist spouting his vile racist bollocks. It may give the british public a chance to see what a bastard he is and what a nasty load of bollocks his policies are.

You never know your luck. he may even do a speech in Germany telling the world how the Nazis never really killed any jews. That will earn him a couple of years in a cell.

 

[Dissident Junk]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

No.

*DJ bangs head against wall repeatedly*

The best way to stop Griffen getting a seat, as indeed any political candidate, is to field a respected, liked, LOCAL (as in from the area, not 'moved five years ago'), alternative candidate that will engage with people and canvas areas properly -- and be friendly and give a shit about their constituents.

The time for arguing the 'aren't they horrid' line is over. It's too late for that now. The zeitgeist has changed dramatically over the last five years.

And this online marketing campaign? The people who you need to change their votes aren't people who will be reached by online campaigning, because they don't engage in online cultures.

Arghhhhhhhhhh..... *DJ resumes banging head*

 

[JimPage]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

No.

*DJ bangs head against wall repeatedly*

The best way to stop Griffen getting a seat, as indeed any political candidate, is to field a respected, liked, LOCAL (as in from the area, not 'moved five years ago'), alternative candidate that will engage with people and canvas areas properly -- and be friendly and give a shit about their constituents.

The time for arguing the 'aren't they horrid' line is over. It's too late for that now. The zeitgeist has changed dramatically over the last five years.

And this online marketing campaign? The people who you need to change their votes aren't people who will be reached by online campaigning, because they don't engage in online cultures.

Arghhhhhhhhhh..... *DJ resumes banging head*

Fully agree, but the left will not be contesting these elections in the NW
In any event, there is insufficient time for any party name to be known between here and June

Still no excuse though for people to collaburate with Searchlight whose campaign will be as successful as their attempt to stop Barnbrook being elected in May

The UAF campaign, along with Antifa`s, will be the only game in town

 

[JimPage]

http://www.british..... pride.org/chairman.html

Interestingly, BNP doing exactly the same- "Throughout months of the victorious Obama campaign - first for the Democratic nomination and then for the US Presidency - we subscribed to, dissected and filed away all the bits of his ground-breaking e-campaign"

 

[durruti02]

copied from Griffin thread .. sorry missed this thread first time

"i attended a meeting with Nick Lowles and various Searchlight apparatchiks this week. They have brought over some w/c obama union organisers who told us how they got the votes out for obama .. very interesting but to what affect ( diff thread) .. BUT the whole purpose was to launch their June 08 euro campaign the thrust of which is to increase the overall vote to make it harder for the BNP to get candidates elected which they seem to be on course to do.

I challenged Lowles on the recent Hyde vote, for which the anti bnp campaign is essentially the same tactic, and he claimed this as a victory .. yet look at the vote .. a 5% increase to 29% of the overall vote .. and an almost 60% increase on their 2003 vote yet only 4% increase on the split .. clearly the stategy has been to increase the non bnp turnout

one of the ideas the americans have given Lowles is that it is not worth arguing with those who will not listen but better to concentrate on the middle ground

i was not the only person at the meeting who sayed that we need to and CAN actually stop the BNP vote .. that the BNP vote is STILL soft and we must relate to those voters before the turn fascist"

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

well i went to the lecture and it was ok. he's big on emails, he's big on trying to build local activism based on email communications, he's creative about trying to give people the ideas to use their tools to reflect their thoughts and lives and opinions. but he started by telling us that he bases much of what he says on the fact that he used to work for a direct-mail company!? this was so much message over medium yet there was no message ultimately, it was vacuous mind-psychology of the very basest form and the arselicking q's made me walk out.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I was going to go but couldn't be bothered in the end, just was tired and figured it'd be nothing new...

 

[lostexpectation]

blue state media and obama name has been borrowed to publicise fianna fails new media strategy and new website in ireland http://www.fiannafail.ie look at its awful ugly and empty

joe respar the other founder of BSD spoke here this week

http://www.techno-culture.com/?p=327 podcast for web guru


a blogger ask about how previously the bluestate people said they wouldn't work with certain groups so she asks has this changed now that they working with ff (who have 10% approval rating for boom and bust policies and close relationship to bankers and builders)


the bluestate guy replies that they will continue to work with the good guys... lol there an audible murmur in the audience

i find that email tracking thing weird

are-blue-state-digital-tracking-ngo-campaign-emails
http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog...ate-digital-tracking-ngo-campaign-emails.html