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Obama: History's Verdict?

Sasaferrato said:
Manning was guilty. He should not ever have been in the army. Having read a considerable amount about his conduct, he should have been discharged when they first intended to do so. A shortage of specialists led to him being in a position to commit his despicable act of treason. He should have been shot as an example for others.

I appreciate that this will not be the majority view on here, perhaps it is an age thing on my part, but he was guilty of a dreadful act.
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It's not age. It's just ignorance on your part. SHE is a hero, as anyone who exposes the evils and lies that governments try to hide from us.
 
I know many many people who have compassion, loyalty, trust and empathy, none of them would day they had honour and duty - too many militaristic and imperialistic connortations
 
Sas is right as far as manning should never have been in the military or that post.
But did show up the US military for committing war crimes a slightly more nuanced approach to what ahe leaked might have helped her case and wikkileaks dropped her in the shit.
 
newbie said:
good for you, I've always thought those particular virtues were cover for servility to power, but there you go. Whatever, your views are yours, I'm just pointing out that they have nothing to do with age.
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They are things that are not so prevalent today.

When you join the armed forces of any country, you take an oath of loyalty to that country, in our case to the head of the nation, the King or Queen.

If you are not prepared to stand by your word, don't join.

As I said, read some of the biography concerning Manning, it makes depressing reading.

Manning joined up, for absolutely the wrong reasons, and after a few weeks, was considered unsuitable to serve. He was placed in a discharge unit to await discharge, but, for some reason that wasn't explained, he was taken back into basic training.

At the time of posting to Iraq, it was clear that was not desirous, but because of a lack of analysts, he went. The rest is history, he committed an appalling act of treason, and went to jail.

The quotes below are from Wiki, but have not been refuted.

Manning's father spent weeks in late 2007 asking her to consider joining the Army. Hoping to gain a college education through the G.I. Bill, and perhaps to study for a PhD in physics, she enlisted in September that year.[77][78][79] She told her Army supervisor later that she had also hoped joining such a masculine environment would resolve her gender identity disorder.[80]

Manning began basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, on October 2, 2007. She wrote that she soon realized she was neither physically nor mentally prepared for it.[81] Six weeks after enlisting, she was sent to the discharge unit. She was allegedly being bullied, and in the opinion of another soldier, was having a breakdown. The soldier told The Guardian: "The kid was barely five foot ... He was a runt, so pick on him. He's crazy, pick on him. He's a faggot, pick on him. The guy took it from every side. He couldn't please anyone." Nicks writes that Manning, who was used to being bullied, fought back—if the drill sergeants screamed at her, she would scream at them—to the point where they started calling her "General Manning".[82][83][84][85]

The decision to discharge her was revoked, and she started basic training again in January 2008. After graduating in April, she moved to Fort Huachuca, Arizona, in order to attend Advanced Individual Training (AIT) for Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) 35F, intelligence analyst, receiving a TS/SCI security clearance (Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmented Information). According to Nicks, this security clearance, combined with the digitization of classified information and the government's policy of sharing it widely, gave Manning access to an unprecedented amount of material. Nicks writes that Manning was reprimanded while at Fort Huachuca for posting three video messages to friends on YouTube, in which she described the inside of the "Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility" (SCIF) where she worked.[86][87][88][89][90] Upon completion of her initial MOS course, Manning received the Army Service Ribbon and the National Defense Service Medal.[91]


After four weeks at the Joint Readiness Training Center (JRTC) in Fort Polk, Louisiana, Manning was deployed to Forward Operating Base Hammer, near Baghdad, arriving in October 2009. From her workstation there, she had access to SIPRNet (the Secret Internet Protocol Router Network) and JWICS (the Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications System). Two of her superiors had discussed not taking her to Iraq; it was felt she was a risk to herself and possibly others, according to a statement later issued by the Army—but the shortage of intelligence analysts dictated their decision to take her.[97] In November 2009, she was promoted from Private First Class to Specialist.[98]

In November 2009 Manning wrote to a gender counselor in the United States, said she felt female, and discussed having surgery. The counselor told Steve Fishman of New York magazine in 2011 that it was clear Manning was in crisis, partly because of her gender concerns, but also because she was opposed to the kind of war in which she found herself involved.[99]

She was by all accounts unhappy and isolated. Because of the military's "Don't ask, don't tell" policy (known as DADT and in effect until September 20, 2011), Manning was unable to live as an openly gay man without risk of being discharged. But she apparently made no secret of her orientation: her friends said she kept a fairy wand on her desk. When she told her roommate she was attracted to men, he responded by suggesting they not speak to each other.[100] Manning's working conditions included 14- to 15-hour night shifts in a tightly packed, dimly lit room.[101]

On December 20, 2009, during a counseling session with two colleagues to discuss her poor time-keeping, Manning was told she would lose her one day off a week for persistent lateness. She responded by overturning a table, damaging a computer that was sitting on it. A sergeant moved Manning away from the weapons rack, and other soldiers pinned her arms behind her back and dragged her out of the room. Several witnesses to the incident believed her access to sensitive material ought to have been withdrawn at that point.[102] The following month, January 2010, she began posting on Facebook that she felt hopeless and alone.[103]

Much of the fault in this case lies with the US army, Manning should not have completed basic training, as it was clear even at that point he was never going be a soldier. I suppose what makes his crime even worse, is the leniency shown by the army, which was rewarded by treachery.
 
not-bono-ever said:
I know many many people who have compassion, loyalty, trust and empathy, none of them would day they had honour and duty - too many militaristic and imperialistic connortations
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Ummm... militaristic? Would that have something to do with the military?

Surely this is something which you expect from a soldier?
 
Sasaferrato said:
Well, I have a sense of both duty and honour, both things that Manning lacked.
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Sas, yesterday:

latest
 
Sasaferrato said:
When you join the armed forces of any country, you take an oath of loyalty to that country, in our case to the head of the nation, the King or Queen.

If you are not prepared to stand by your word, don't join.
Click to expand...
I didn't. I wouldn't. the thought of joining the iron fist of the rulers churns my stomach. Always has, always will. Which is why I'm absolutely certain it's nothing to do with age.
 
Sasaferrato said:
The soldier told The Guardian: "The kid was barely five foot ... He was a runt, so pick on him. He's crazy, pick on him. He's a faggot, pick on him."


Much of the fault in this case lies with the US army, Manning should not have completed basic training, as it was clear even at that point he was never going be a soldier.
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And you still insist she should have been loyal to the US army? Why? Nobody owes loyalty to those who mistreat them, regardless of any stupid fucking oaths they signed. Morality is not like the law, you can't sign away your moral obligation to protect someone's welfare with a piece of paper. No agreement which one party ignores can have any moral hold on the other.
 
Sasaferrato said:
They are things that are not so prevalent today.

When you join the armed forces of any country, you take an oath of loyalty to that country, in our case to the head of the nation, the King or Queen.

If you are not prepared to stand by your word, don't join.
Click to expand...

Gott mit uns
 
Sasaferrato said:
They are things that are not so prevalent today.

When you join the armed forces of any country, you take an oath of loyalty to that country, in our case to the head of the nation, the King or Queen.

If you are not prepared to stand by your word, don't join.

As I said, read some of the biography concerning Manning, it makes depressing reading.

Manning joined up, for absolutely the wrong reasons, and after a few weeks, was considered unsuitable to serve. He was placed in a discharge unit to await discharge, but, for some reason that wasn't explained, he was taken back into basic training.

At the time of posting to Iraq, it was clear that was not desirous, but because of a lack of analysts, he went. The rest is history, he committed an appalling act of treason, and went to jail.

The quotes below are from Wiki, but have not been refuted.

Manning's father spent weeks in late 2007 asking her to consider joining the Army. Hoping to gain a college education through the G.I. Bill, and perhaps to study for a PhD in physics, she enlisted in September that year.[77][78][79] She told her Army supervisor later that she had also hoped joining such a masculine environment would resolve her gender identity disorder.[80]

Manning began basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, on October 2, 2007. She wrote that she soon realized she was neither physically nor mentally prepared for it.[81] Six weeks after enlisting, she was sent to the discharge unit. She was allegedly being bullied, and in the opinion of another soldier, was having a breakdown. The soldier told The Guardian: "The kid was barely five foot ... He was a runt, so pick on him. He's crazy, pick on him. He's a faggot, pick on him. The guy took it from every side. He couldn't please anyone." Nicks writes that Manning, who was used to being bullied, fought back—if the drill sergeants screamed at her, she would scream at them—to the point where they started calling her "General Manning".[82][83][84][85]

The decision to discharge her was revoked, and she started basic training again in January 2008. After graduating in April, she moved to Fort Huachuca, Arizona, in order to attend Advanced Individual Training (AIT) for Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) 35F, intelligence analyst, receiving a TS/SCI security clearance (Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmented Information). According to Nicks, this security clearance, combined with the digitization of classified information and the government's policy of sharing it widely, gave Manning access to an unprecedented amount of material. Nicks writes that Manning was reprimanded while at Fort Huachuca for posting three video messages to friends on YouTube, in which she described the inside of the "Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility" (SCIF) where she worked.[86][87][88][89][90] Upon completion of her initial MOS course, Manning received the Army Service Ribbon and the National Defense Service Medal.[91]


After four weeks at the Joint Readiness Training Center (JRTC) in Fort Polk, Louisiana, Manning was deployed to Forward Operating Base Hammer, near Baghdad, arriving in October 2009. From her workstation there, she had access to SIPRNet (the Secret Internet Protocol Router Network) and JWICS (the Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications System). Two of her superiors had discussed not taking her to Iraq; it was felt she was a risk to herself and possibly others, according to a statement later issued by the Army—but the shortage of intelligence analysts dictated their decision to take her.[97] In November 2009, she was promoted from Private First Class to Specialist.[98]

In November 2009 Manning wrote to a gender counselor in the United States, said she felt female, and discussed having surgery. The counselor told Steve Fishman of New York magazine in 2011 that it was clear Manning was in crisis, partly because of her gender concerns, but also because she was opposed to the kind of war in which she found herself involved.[99]

She was by all accounts unhappy and isolated. Because of the military's "Don't ask, don't tell" policy (known as DADT and in effect until September 20, 2011), Manning was unable to live as an openly gay man without risk of being discharged. But she apparently made no secret of her orientation: her friends said she kept a fairy wand on her desk. When she told her roommate she was attracted to men, he responded by suggesting they not speak to each other.[100] Manning's working conditions included 14- to 15-hour night shifts in a tightly packed, dimly lit room.[101]

On December 20, 2009, during a counseling session with two colleagues to discuss her poor time-keeping, Manning was told she would lose her one day off a week for persistent lateness. She responded by overturning a table, damaging a computer that was sitting on it. A sergeant moved Manning away from the weapons rack, and other soldiers pinned her arms behind her back and dragged her out of the room. Several witnesses to the incident believed her access to sensitive material ought to have been withdrawn at that point.[102] The following month, January 2010, she began posting on Facebook that she felt hopeless and alone.[103]

Much of the fault in this case lies with the US army, Manning should not have completed basic training, as it was clear even at that point he was never going be a soldier. I suppose what makes his crime even worse, is the leniency shown by the army, which was rewarded by treachery.
Click to expand...

No leniency involved, just a desperate need for bodies on the ground. US Army has, even with taking ex-cons for the last 15 years, consistently failed to hit its recruitment targets, even though they're revised downward year on year. Discipline has gone to hell because manning levels are so poor that discharging someone for anything this side of serious violence of epic theft is a no-no.
 
Yossarian said:
The duty to expose war crimes is more important any oath to a monarch or anybody else.
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But they were war crimes committed by our side so that, by some mechanism which has yet to be explained to us but which I'm sure is highly compelling, makes them OK.
 
ViolentPanda said:
No leniency involved, just a desperate need for bodies on the ground. US Army has, even with taking ex-cons for the last 15 years, consistently failed to hit its recruitment targets, even though they're revised downward year on year. Discipline has gone to hell because manning levels are so poor that discharging someone for anything this side of serious violence of epic theft is a no-no.
Click to expand...

They are pretty much fucked then regarding a disciplined service.

Reading about Manning, had you or I done a fraction of what he did, we would have been discharged instantly.

British Army recruitment is below what is necessary at the moment, which tends to be a sign of better economic conditions. A goodly number of people, myself included, joined the army because they had no employment prospects otherwise.

Oh well, to all, we are not going to agree on this, so I have nothing further to add. This has been done to death previously, and my views haven't changed in the interim.
 
Sasaferrato said:
Manning was guilty. He should not ever have been in the army. Having read a considerable amount about his conduct, he should have been discharged when they first intended to do so. A shortage of specialists led to him being in a position to commit his despicable act of treason. He should have been shot as an example for others.

I appreciate that this will not be the majority view on here, perhaps it is an age thing on my part, but he was guilty of a dreadful act.
Click to expand...
Yet a Russian serviceman giving up the goods on the Russian military 'on principle' would be regarded as a hero In the West.
She was also suffering from pretty serious mental health issues.
Points to Obama, for this at least.
 
coley said:
Yet a Russian serviceman giving up the goods on the Russian military 'on principle' would be regarded as a hero In the West.
She was also suffering from pretty serious mental health issues.
Points to Obama, for this at least.
Click to expand...

On that, I can agree, partly.
 
Sasaferrato said:
Manning was guilty. He should not ever have been in the army. Having read a considerable amount about his conduct, he should have been discharged when they first intended to do so. A shortage of specialists led to him being in a position to commit his despicable act of treason. He should have been shot as an example for others.

I appreciate that this will not be the majority view on here, perhaps it is an age thing on my part, but he was guilty of a dreadful act.
Click to expand...
A christian speaks.
 
J Ed said:
You must have an extraordinarily limited knowledge of history and, at the same time, a real lack of imagination.
Click to expand...

i meant in my lifetime (i'm 35), though that maybe wasn't clear.

i'm very pessimistic about the future, aren't you?
 
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