Northern Irish rape victim, 12, forced to travel to England under police escort for abortion

[LiamO]

My comments were based on this.

And your ahistorical, colonialist analysis

 

[tim]

And your ahistorical, colonialist analysis

That abortion was an issue that divided Sinn Fein members as it was and continues to be within political parties in other parts of Europe.

Deracinated though I may be, I'm not convinced that being the descendant of migrants qualifies me as being a colonialist.

 

[eoin_k]

That abortion was an issue that divided Sinn Fein members as it was and continues to be within political parties in other parts of Europe.
[...]

That is clearly the case, but the issue doesn't divide the DUP, even though it is equally divisive across both sides of the sectarian divide. The DUP is now the only party that would impose a whip against reform.

 

[SpackleFrog]

And your ahistorical, colonialist analysis

Is it not true that some Shinners are anti abortion rights then?

That abortion was an issue that divided Sinn Fein members as it was and continues to be within political parties in other parts of Europe.

Deracinated though I may be, I'm not convinced that being the descendant of migrants qualifies me as being a colonialist.

 

[flypanam]

Is it not true that some Shinners are anti abortion rights then?

Compeletly true, like any broad church party their members have multiple positions, as I said up thread they have recently split, with Peader Toibin TD has set up a party called Aontu (Unity) which seems to have a little traction as he's had public meetings in the South and has taken with him a couple of councillors and has signed up about 1400 members.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Compeletly true, like any broad church party their members have multiple positions, as I said up thread they have recently split, with Peader Toibin TD has set up a party called Aontu (Unity) which seems to have a little traction as he's had public meetings in the South and has taken with him a couple of councillors and has signed up about 1400 members.

Sorry, that's a really helpful reply but I know about Aountu, was curious to hear LiamO's thoughts!

 

[flypanam]

Sorry, that's a really helpful reply but I know about Aountu, was curious to hear LiamO's thoughts!

 

[two sheds]

I'm sure that Hindus and Buddhists and others from the East will be thrilled to hear from Westerners that, after a few hundred years of hearing that following their religion means they'll be damned to hell, they're now being told that following their religion means that they worship a sky pixie.

It must look to them like we're pre-programmed to look down on the opinions of brown people from the East. Or something.

 

[likesfish]

well so what the truth hurts just because you have a million gods their still not real

 

[Judelo]

I don't think Buddhists have any gods, and the Hindu concept of g(G)od(s) is different to the abrahamic one (a bit more chilled)

 

[two sheds]

Fair play, point remains though.

I'm a great fan of scientific method myself. I used to describe myself as an agnostic until someone on urban reminded me of the Null Hypothesis so I'd now have to say I'm an atheist. But contempt for other people's theories (and the arrogance that comes from) as long as they don't damage someone else doesn't really belong in scientific method.

 

[Flavour]

Fair play, point remains though.

I'm a great fan of scientific method myself. I used to describe myself as an agnostic until someone on urban reminded me of the Null Hypothesis so I'd now have to say I'm an atheist. But contempt for other people's theories (and the arrogance that comes from) as long as they don't damage someone else doesn't really belong in scientific method

The point being that they do, and systematically so

 

[two sheds]

Indeed, as do many atheists.

 

[Chilli.s]

Sky Pixie is a fantastic catch all phrase for the many many gods that inhabit people's imaginations.

 

[eoin_k]

[...]
But contempt for other people's theories (and the arrogance that comes from) as long as they don't damage someone else doesn't really belong in scientific method.

Indeed. As the atheist Stephen Jay Gould (professor of palaeontology, evolutionary biology and the history of science) pointed out, a commitment to the scientific method and religious belief aren't mutually exclusive. His argument drew on evidence, such as the fact that the religious beliefs of many scientists don't interfere with their research. He also did more than most to debunk both creationist fallacies and the abuse of science to promote racism. However powerful and credible the scientific method has proven itself to be, it has also been bound up with the abuse of power, and not just by Josef Mengele. We probably have more to fear from the relationship between science and technology in today's capitalist society than from Hindu nationalists, Daesh militants, young earth creationists and Opus Dei combined, never mind the billions of ordinary decent people with a slightly different worldview.

Sneering about sky pixies also comes across as complacent and ignorant of the fact that the scientific method and the prevelance of aetheist views today are enmeshed with the beliefs of the culture they emerged from in ways that have left traces that are had to shake off for good or ill. By replacing the gods with one remote God, did monotheism create space for different causal models to emerge? Why do some of the most secular perspectives, such as Communism, sometimes tell stories with a happy ending that looks a lot like a Christian salvation myth?

To get back on track, here's a useful study on social attitudes towards abortion in Norn Iron from 2016.

TL;DR: While a small minority of non-believers tend to have the least restrictive attitudes towards abortion, followed by Protestants and then Catholics, such attitudes became less restrictive between 1990 and 2016 irrespective of religious beliefs and there is widespread recognition of the need for legal reform.

Before the referendum in the south, around a third of the population already supported abortion on demand (a figure that includes more self-identified sky-pixie believers than atheist), but the case still needs to be made, something the Repeal campaign proved possible. Since a referendum would not be required, however, the policies of the different political parties are as important as the precise balance of public opinion. Just as they can block reform, with enough will they could go beyond public opinion, as happened with the abolition of the death penalty in Britain.

 

[Pickman's model]

abortion law in six counties breaches uk's human rights commitments
NI abortion law 'breaches human rights'

 

[flyingcolumn]

We don't want your English abortion here.

 

[Combustible]

We don't want your English abortion here.

Quite right, I am sure that 12 year old rape victim had a grand old time traveling under police escort for that uniquely English medical procedure.

But if you don't want abortion, you might want to give up on the whole united Ireland thing

 

[ginger_syn]

We don't want your English abortion here.

Well hopefully you'll be able to have Northern Irish abortion soon.

 

[Proper Tidy]

We don't want your English abortion here.

We don't need no birth control

 

[likesfish]

Fair play, point remains though.

I'm a great fan of scientific method myself. I used to describe myself as an agnostic until someone on urban reminded me of the Null Hypothesis so I' d now have to say I'm an atheist. But contempt for other people's theories (and the arrogance that comes from) as long as they don't damage someone else doesn't really belong in scientific method.

Problem is religious spritual thinking does harm others when it flies in the face of FACTS take the river ganges a stinking heavily polluted river thats holy to Hindus. Normal thinking would have people go this is in a shit state we need to do something. Religious thinking as the Ganges is sacred it can look after its self

 

[rekil]

Well hopefully you'll be able to have Northern Irish abortion soon.

He's not Irish, let alone involved in republicanism. Just a numpty.

 

[andysays]

Worth bumping this thread given yesterday's events and the decriminalization of abortion in NI.

 

[Poot]

Worth bumping this thread given yesterday's events and the decriminalization of abortion in NI.

An astonishing leap forwards to the 1970s there.

 

[andysays]

An astonishing leap forwards to the 1970s there.

I think I read somewhere that Arlene Foster was commenting that NI now has the most liberal abortion laws in Europe.

Not sure if she thought that was a good thing or not

 

[skyscraper101]

I think I read somewhere that Arlene Foster was commenting that NI now has the most liberal abortion laws in Europe.

Not sure if she thought that was a good thing or not

I think her point was the legislation was passed in such a manner which left out a lot of the checks and balances which apply to the rest of the UK and so it's bad legislation. I don't know if any of that is true, but someone was explaining it that way on radio 4 yesterday.

Obvs, I'm also well aware that it could be convenient excuse to try to get it thrown out.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Good to see that the bigots have lost this and the equal marriage argument at long last, but no doubt they'll try to overturn it.

 

[Sue]

This maybe isn't quite the right thread but looks like despite abortion being legalised in NI a year ago, it's still not available.

'Les Allamby, chief commissioner of the NIHRC, said the failure to fund and commission abortion services in Northern Ireland breached the European convention on human rights.

“The secretary of state is saying he is doing his best to resolve the matter, the NI Executive claim it is not a matter for them and the Department of Health say it cannot go ahead without the agreement of the NI Executive,” he said.

“This ‘pass the parcel’ where the music never stops has been going on for over a year with little sign of movement until we decided to go to court,” he said. “It is indefensible that in 2021 women and girls are still being asked to travel to England to access abortion services or being left with no other option than to take unregulated pills.”
'

Northern Irish woman told to go to England for abortion gets case heard

Action is being brought against the Northern Ireland secretary, the Northern Ireland Executive and its health department

www.theguardian.com