New Tommy Sheridan video.

[danny la rouge]

Sheridan won his case.

It's the cost at which he did this that makes him a class traitor.

I see he is laying the groundwork for a plea of insanity when it comes to his perjury trial. It'd be funny if he wasn't a lying, disloyal shit who would drop anyone in it for his own selfish ends. I'm not laughing.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Eventually most working people realise this too which is why trotskyism is so despised.

In fact, the vast majority of working people have had little contact with Trotskyism or with any other brand of revolutionary politics. Trotskyism isn't despised for the simple reason that most people don't have an opinion on it one way or the other.

Yet again the wiberals (I can't remember if you're an anarchist or a green or whatever, but such details are basically unimportant) on this board mistake their own obsessions and opinions about their enemies on the left for those of the working class or the population at large.

 

[rhys gethin]

I wouldn't know about the rights and wrongs of the particular case, but I do think that a regular routine is developing whereby socialists allow the babloids to set them up 'leaders', leaders they then proceed to knife when the time is ripe, so that people get disillusioned. Do we need to play this game, comrades?

 

[danny la rouge]

I wouldn't know about the rights and wrongs of the particular case, but I do think that a regular routine is developing whereby socialists allow the babloids to set them up 'leaders', leaders they then proceed to knife when the time is ripe, so that people get disillusioned. Do we need to play this game, comrades?

In this case, though, it was the leader who did the knifing, and then said it was his victims who had done it.

Sheridan sees plots where in fact there is just disagreement. But that's what happens when you believe your own publicity. But he is the traitor. And should be shunned by all decent working class people. Of course in a revolutionary setting he'd have to be neck shot and left in a ditch. But as it is ostracism is the best he deserves.

 

[JoePolitix]

In this case, though, it was the leader who did the knifing, and then said it was his victims who had done it.

Sheridan sees plots where in fact there is just disagreement. But that's what happens when you believe your own publicity. But he is the traitor. And should be shunned by all decent working class people. Of course in a revolutionary setting he'd have to be neck shot and left in a ditch. But as it is ostracism is the best he deserves.

But what of McNeilage and the SSP leadership? I hear that on Newsnight Scotland yesterday Colin Fox, whilst claiming he had no knowledge on the tape or the transaction with the NotW, told the program that McNeilage was not going to face any disciplinary measures for his actions.

This is tantamount to the SSP leadership approving of colluding with and taking money of an anti-working class rag like NotW. The SSP leadership and others on the far left have become so obsessed with hating Sheriden that they are forgeting about the main enemy. Thus we have leading SSP members justifying the alliance with Murdoch on the grounds that Sheriden is the greater evil. Even worse today on the SSP website there is the demand that Sheridan & Byrne resign As MSP's on the grounds that "that would at least limit the damage that this sorry affair is inflicting on Scottish politics and politicians in general". This is shameful stuff for socialists.

 

[Wilf]

But what of McNeilage and the SSP leadership? I hear that on Newsnight Scotland yesterday Colin Fox, whilst claiming he had no knowledge on the tape or the transaction with the NotW, told the program that McNeilage was not going to face any disciplinary measures for his actions.

I agree with you on that. I don't have a problem with McNeilage telling everyone what Sheridan said to him. In the circumstances I don't have too much problem with him taping the conversation. Generally, its an appalling thing to do - but just about acceptable given that he was doing it to prove what the '11' had said in court was true, that they weren't making it up etc. However if he did sell this to the press, that's both sickening and stupid - not only taking Murdoch's shilling, but also providing amunition for Sheridan.

This is tantamount to the SSP leadership approving of colluding with and taking money of an anti-working class rag like NotW. The SSP leadership and others on the far left have become so obsessed with hating Sheriden that they are forgeting about the main enemy. Thus we have leading SSP members justifying the alliance with Murdoch on the grounds that Sheriden is the greater evil. Even worse today on the SSP website there is the demand that Sheridan & Byrne resign As MSP's on the grounds that "that would at least limit the damage that this sorry affair is inflicting on Scottish politics and politicians in general". This is shameful stuff for socialists.

Can't agree with you on this. Seems to me the leadership did a fair bit to stop this going to court - advising sheridan against it in the first place and, in 1 case, actually going to prison to stop the N oW getting the minutes. Sheridan created a situation where the only option they had - if they wanted to cling onto their basic decency and avoid being prosecuted for perjury - was to go to court and say what had actually happened. That's not an alliance.

 

[danny la rouge]

But what of McNeilage and the SSP leadership?

How do you suggest they respond to the filthy, treacherous, mendacious attack on them by Sheridan?

 

[DexterTCN]

How do you suggest they respond to the filthy, treacherous, mendacious attack on them by Sheridan?

Sheridan won his case. The jury chose to believe him in a court of law, not the EC.

You continually ignore this fact because it gets in the way of your argument.

If you seriously think anyone believes they haven't connived to get this tape to the Murdoch empire than you're a bigger fool than I took you for.

Colin Fox said on Newsnight last night that he knew for a fact that it was Sheridan on the tape...then went on to say he has not, in fact, seen the whole tape. His second statement was a lie. He and his comrades all saw that tape, indeed probably encouraged McNeilage to make it and conspired to get it to Murdoch.

Scum. They are now irrevocably tied to Murdoch, the anti-socialist, anti-union, pro-war tycoon who uses corrupt tax breaks to sell his papers cheaper than the opposition to promote his right-wing agenda. The Executive Council of the SSP and the Murdoch empire are now, in unison, attacking Sheridan - who is a well known Scottish Socialist. Together they are trying to destroy him politically. Indeed I have heard that some of them have been giving exclusive interviews to the self-same media.

Can't get a much more damning indictment than that.

And don't bore me with your personal attacks, the more you talk the more you show yourself. Away and talk about Trolle again...no honest...it's really interesting and everyone loves it.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Sheridan won his case. The jury chose to believe him in a court of law, not the EC.

That is one explaination, the others have already been gone through numerous times. However if they believed Sheridan, the jury were wrong. Sheridan did have affairs and did go to swingers clubs.

You continually ignore this fact because it gets in the way of your argument.

No, he ignores it because its irrelevant. So seven people believed Sheridan...quite frankly they must be the only seven people in the whole of Scotland and I doubt if even they do any more.

Colin Fox said on Newsnight last night that he knew for a fact that it was Sheridan on the tape...then went on to say he has not, in fact, seen the whole tape. His second statement was a lie. He and his comrades all saw that tape, indeed probably encouraged McNeilage to make it and conspired to get it to Murdoch.

And you know this how, precisely? He wasnt prepared to lie in a civil trial, what makes you think that he is now prepared to lie in a criminal one.

Sheridan - who is a well known Scottish Socialist.

No, he used to be a well known scottish socialist, now he is a well known liar and traitor.

Fucks sakes, he;s destroyed the SSP, personally cross examined a former lover under oath and then denied their relationship, put his comrades in an impossible position including four of them who are now likely to be convicted of perjury. He;s refused wages for staff, had a grievience upheld against him, and employed scab labour. He;s pocketed £30K from a tabloid to call leading socialists, feminists and trade unionists "scabs", and done fluffy photoshoots with his nice little bourgoise family.

Being a socialist is more than just standing up on a platform and spouting, actions speak far louder than words.

 

[DexterTCN]

Being a socialist is more than just standing up on a platform and spouting, actions speak far louder than words.

Siding with Murdoch?

 

[Fullyplumped]

and done fluffy photoshoots with his nice little bourgeoise family.

There are worser things than being in a nice little bourgeoise family, whatever his many wickednesses. If he'd stuck with them a lot of people would be a lot happier today.

 

[greenman]

Its "us or them", "you're either with Tommy or Murdoch" over and over again, with the Sheridanites isn't it. Like a stuck recording of George Bush....
Just repeating a simplistic assertion, refusing to go into any detail and casting everyone who questions an untenable and unsustainable position as a "class enemy" or "traitor" is not the way to win an argument.
Desperate stuff.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Siding with Murdoch?

How exactly?

The truth is the truth is the truth.

Unlike someone I could mention he didnt pocket £30K from a tabloid rag for calling socialists scabs.

 

[JoePolitix]

Sorry guys but you're in denial. If the SSP leadership weren't in an alliance with Murdoch before they certainly are now following McNeilages actions. To repeat: He sold a tape he allegedly filmed in secret two years ago, sold it to the NotW for personal profit and even penned an accompanying article to go with it. The SSP leadership have taken no action against McNeilage for passing on information to the anti-working class rag for cash and on e-lists leading SSP activists are appauding him for doing so.

If that isn't an alliance - tell me what is.

 

[nwnm]

That is one explaination, the others have already been gone through numerous times. However if they believed Sheridan, the jury were wrong.

To paraphrase Berthold Brecht - Because the jury voted against the ssp line the ssp must elect a new jury, only they've chosen the Murdoch empire to be judge and jury....

Meanwhile Sheridan is back to doing what he does best - building socialist organisation....

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=708869

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/5403880.stm

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

To paraphrase Berthold Brecht - Because the jury voted against the ssp line the ssp must elect a new jury, only they've chosen the Murdoch empire to be judge and jury....

Brecht oh is so apt in these circumstances - no need to paraphrase at all.

The Solution
After the uprising of the 17th June
The Secretary of the Writers Union
Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
Stating that the people
Had forfeited the confidence of the government
And could win it back only
By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?

 

[Fullyplumped]

All over by Christmas?

Ten Cops to Probe Sheridan Lies Claim

THE investigation into perjury claims in the Tommy Sheridan case will use up to 100 police staff hours a DAY, it was revealed yesterday.

Senior sources at Lothian and Borders Police say the criminal investigation will cost hundreds of thousands of pounds and stretch into next year. A team of up to 10 officers taken from CID and beat bobbies will be drafted in and dedicated to the inquiry full-time.

It is unlikely the team will even begin to interview witnesses until the end of November. Lothian and Borders Police are not commenting on the inquiry except to say it is "ongoing". But sources at the force expect the team to be involved in the case for up to 12 months and say it could be longer.​

 

[danny la rouge]

Sheridan won his case. The jury chose to believe him in a court of law, not the EC.

No, I'm fully aware of that fact. And it came about because a class traitor betrayed his comrades and put them in an impossible situation. They didn't bring the case, he did. He expected them to lie under oath, but had they done so they would have been sacrificing the socialist movement for the temporary victory of a traitor's ego. No contest, they had to tell the truth.

You continually ignore this fact because it gets in the way of your argument.

No, it is the reason for my argument. If Sheridan had not brought the case there wouldn't be such an issue.

If you seriously think anyone believes they haven't connived to get this tape to the Murdoch empire than you're a bigger fool than I took you for.

I don't need to defend the SSP; I am not a member or supporter. But I do say this - since he lied and betrayed them, it is open season on the shit.

Colin Fox said on Newsnight last night that he knew for a fact that it was Sheridan on the tape...then went on to say he has not, in fact, seen the whole tape.

It is Sheridan - I went to university with the Traitor, and recognise him when I hear him. I haven't seen the whole tape.

His second statement was a lie. He and his comrades all saw that tape, indeed probably encouraged McNeilage to make it and conspired to get it to Murdoch.

You don't know that, and neither do I. But two things: I believe Fox before I believe Sheridan, and Sheridan is a traitor and it's open season on him.

They are now irrevocably tied to Murdoch, the anti-socialist, anti-union, pro-war tycoon who uses corrupt tax breaks to sell his papers cheaper than the opposition to promote his right-wing agenda.

No, Sheridan put the SSP in a position of being against him. He did that, by lying, by saying there was a plot when there wasn't, by bringing a case that they were called as witnesses to. But the thing you aren't getting is just because Sheridan has two sets of enemies, it doesn't mean those two sets of enemies are one.

Indeed I have heard that some of them have been giving exclusive interviews to the self-same media.

Sheridan has in the past done exclusive interviews with Murdoch papers. But in any case, the mainstream media is all owned by bourgoise interests. Including the Record.

Can't get a much more damning indictment than that.

Really? Then you damn Sheridan by your own logic.

And don't bore me with your personal attacks,

Personal attacks upon whom? Not on any poster here.

Away and talk about Trolle again...no honest...it's really interesting and everyone loves it.

She was expendable to Sheridan was she? He's a charmer, isn't he.

Tell you what, though. Maybe when MI5 were making that video using CGI trickery, they also got a hairy arsed body double to shag around in sex clubs, eh? And maybe it was the doppleganger who betrayed Sheridan's comrades.

 

[justuname]

Away and talk about Trolle again...no honest...it's really interesting and everyone loves it.

Yeah, whinging women eh? Boring.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/scotland/story/0,,1843604,00.html

 

[Wilf]

I am critical of the ssp if they encouraged McNeilage to go direct to the Now. I'm also critical of him if he took money. They responded to lies by telling the truth - but (allegedly) told the truth in an unprincipled way. Best thing would have been simply to post it on their website or pass it freely to Indymedia Scotland. However, Sheridan supporters end up defending him on smaller and smaller territory it that's all they have left. You've surely got to acknowledge that Sheridan caused this - and in doing so wrecked his party.

In fact its become merely an isssue now about the morality of the fightback. Its like someone punches you in the face - an unprovoked attack. Is it better to punch them straight back or give them one on the back of the head as they leave the room? Well..
1. the former may be slightly more 'honourable' than the latter. However even the latter is a valid response.
2. much more importantly, responsibility lies with the person who carried out the initial attack
3. even more importantly, it would have been better for all concerned if the whole episode hadn't happened

p.s. I'm not very well up on fighting etiquette - may be a false analogy

 

[JoePolitix]

I've taken this post from a closed discussion list by an SSP member, Sandy McBurney. I know technically I shouldn't do this but he's also made similar remarks on an open discussion list:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/workersunity/

so I reckon its alright to do so. His argument bares out some of the points I've been trying to make:

Unless GMcN (George McNeilage) comes out with a statement explaining the whole background to this tape and gives the cash he presumably got to a good socialist cause he should be expelled from the SSP.

There should no ifs or buts.

Some in the SSP are even saying that they hope GMcN got a good price
and they dont see it as a problem that he sold the tape to the NOTW

When Fiona McG sold her story to the NOTW should she have been allowed
to remain a member of the SSP if she so wished?

Tell you what i know some details of the private lives of some other
members of Solidarity. Maybe i should try to sell them to the NOTW. It
would beat working for a living. I could even try to trap them on tape

Scargill and Galloway are both Stalinist shits. Maybe others on the
left who have some details of their private lives should sell them to
the NOTW. What is the problem? Why not? Help them jail Galloway? Why
not and make a few bob for a holiday. Plus it would help remove a
potential electoral opponent. Anything goes in the new SSP. Forget
all that "an injury to one is an injury to all" bullshit. Look out for
yourself or you are a mug. Left nationalism should carry a health warning.

The SSP membership must act to call a halt to the mud slinging. From
being known as "The SSP- Tommy sheridans party" it is danger of
becoming known as "The SSP -the anti tommy sheridan party". TS is
finished as a socialist. He is now a figure of fun, or maybe soon,
pity. If the SSP does not change course and focus on the real enemy-
Capital- it is finished as any kind of socialist party

 

[danny la rouge]

Go back to the beginning.

What were the SSP supposed to do? Here was their leader, he said the story was true but he was going to deny it. They counselled against that, but he was determined. OK, then, they ask him to resign. They keep quiet about the reason, and even give interviews praising his contribution.

He then sues the paper, meaning that his comrades will be called as witnesses. They have two choices, lie, or not lie. If they lie they run the risk of being found out eventually and doing time for perjury. And over a stupid sex scandal. Of course they shouldn’t do that.

So he gets angry because they won’t go along with his hair-brained plan. And accuses them of all sorts of nonsense he knows is false. By this time, of course, you can’t trust a word that comes out of his mouth. Still, though, the SSP will not hand over confidential material. And one of the office bearers goes to prison rather than do so. That is something worth going to prison for; that is a principle worth defending.

But Sheridan says, no hand it over, and the party votes that the minute should be handed over.

What should they do? Still lie? Still back the increasingly untrustworthy and erratic former leader? No, of course not.

This is all about a stupid sex scandal. If Sheridan had just owned up it’d be over long ago. But, no, he had to have his way. And in consequence he now faces a jail term for totally unnecessary perjury.


It was all so pointless, and all due to Sheridan's ego. Add to that his disgraceful behaviour towards comrades and former lovers, and I'm afraid he loses all the rights to respect he earned over the years. He now can't be trusted under pressure not just to blab any old thing to get himself out of a scrape. He is worse than dead weight.

 

[stylegar]

http://www.marxmail.org/msg18178.html

 

[Wilf]

I pretty much agree with all of post 81 - at least in the sense of how they should be behaving and the kind of issues they should really be addressing. However post 82 explains exactly why people in the ssp have been sidetracked with other issues. To be honest, if someone had treated me the way they have been treated, I'd have become as focussed on all this as they have (though without any dealings with the Now).

 

[JoePolitix]

http://www.marxmail.org/msg18178.html

Fuck!

The plot thickens...

 

[Nigel]

Red Judas

Sorry guys but you're in denial. If the SSP leadership weren't in an alliance with Murdoch before they certainly are now following McNeilages actions. To repeat: He sold a tape he allegedly filmed in secret two years ago, sold it to the NotW for personal profit and even penned an accompanying article to go with it. The SSP leadership have taken no action against McNeilage for passing on information to the anti-working class rag for cash and on e-lists leading SSP activists are appauding him for doing so.

If that isn't an alliance - tell me what is.

The only person who should be neck shot is this scumbag.
Anyone got an address

 

[junius]

Don't threaten our Joe.

 

[JoePolitix]

Don't threaten our Joe.

Good to know there's someone prepared to stand between me and Nigel's cross bow!

Seriously though Junius what do you think of the Marxism mailing list article? Looks like a pretty compelling case against the authenticity of the alledged Sheriden tape to me.

 

[junius]

Good to know there's someone prepared to stand between me and Nigel's cross bow!

Seriously though Junius what do you think of the Marxism mailing list article? Looks like a pretty compelling case against the authenticity of the alledged Sheriden tape to me.

I'm certainly in no position to be able to refute it.

It's undoubtedly an interesting post, the guy has certainly has spent some time on this.

Interesting to know whether he has his own axe to grind or is 'neutral'.

 

[Nigel]

Good to know there's someone prepared to stand between me and Nigel's cross bow!

Seriously though Junius what do you think of the Marxism mailing list article? Looks like a pretty compelling case against the authenticity of the alledged Sheriden tape to me.

I was talking about McNeilage.
Sorry Joe hope you did'nt take it the wrong way!