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New Tommy Sheridan video.

But as socialists we should oppose 1) the attempt by bourgeois courts/ police to accuse SSP activists of perjury 2) any further attempt by Notw to win back its case against Sheridan.

Both TS and the SSP should have made very clear their opposition to any investigation about a comrades' private life.

TS does seems to have seriously pissed off a lot of people in SSP but this is all apolitical- forget it. move on, concentrate on the politics.

Finally if SSP members are called once again to court to be accused of perjury this is an attack on democratic rights- if I give testimony then just because a jury doesn't on balance (or is beyond reasonable doubt- i think its the former here) believe me is not evidence beyond reasonable doubt thay I lied. You could say either TS lied or his (then) fellow SSP comrades lied- yes, their evidence is mutually contradictory but neither can be rived to have lied. The courts are clutching at straws or someone's preparing a frame up.

But it is pretty disgraceful of McNeilage to come out with this tape, however egotistical or uncomradely or shittyy in his comments TS has been
 
If McNeilage got paid for this, he's wrong. If he offered it to the NoW first, he's wrong - and an idiot. If the SSP leadership approved of any of this, they were both wrong and strategically inept (offering amunition to Sheridan and his camp followers). However, he/they were not wrong in revealing the tape - it proves what they have been saying all along and it stops them from potentially getting hit with a libel case (which they had been facing since Sheridan's victory).

Y'know i really wish that the Sheridanities on here would stop saying its a case of support him or support the Murdoch press. Despite Sheridan's own attempts to portray it this way it has never been that. Its quite possible to be (very) critical of someone whilst also detesting thier main enemy. In fact its pretty astonishing for Sheridan to claim its 'a working class fighter v the gutter press' - given that he took twenty grand off another tabloid (along with his 'winnings').

And lets not ever forget, Sheridan was the one who went to the capitalist courts; Sheridan was the one who lied; Sheridan was the one who allowed one of his comrades to go to prison to defend him from his own lying; Sheridan was the one who attacked a former lover's sex life in court...

Whatever mistakes have been made by the other side shrink into insignificance alongside all that. To keep maintaining a 'yeah, but, no, but, it was still the SSSP's fault' seems a little bit sectarian to me.

E2a: hadn't seen the previous post when i put this up - so it wasn't intended as a specific reply. However, i would comment on one point:

But as socialists we should oppose 1) the attempt by bourgeois courts/ police to accuse SSP activists of perjury 2) any further attempt by Notw to win back its case against Sheridan.
On1., the effect of the trial was that Sheridan's opponents stood accused of libel. In defending themselves from his lies, they will innevitably open be accusing him of perjury. But who started that ball rolling?
ON2., Pretty much the same point. Its an innevitable side effect of responding to what he has said.
 
urbanrevolt said:
TS does seems to have seriously pissed off a lot of people in SSP but this is all apolitical- forget it. move on, concentrate on the politics.
It is not apolitical - he has proved himself incapable of solidarity (which makes his cynical use of that word as the name of his party so laughable), and has split the socialist movement.

As I said, if I'm involved in an action - maybe involving defying some law - and he gets involved, how can I trust him? How do I know he won't land everyone in it for his own selfish ends? I don't. He is a class traitor, low life scum, and despite his former comrades' too lenient calls for him to apologise, it is far, far too late for his apologies; he is dirt, and has my disdain.
 
DexterTCN said:
As you can see, Bear, there is not much point trying to get reasoned conversation out of this lot about Sheridan. I'm not trying to tell you what to think but I guarantee you'll only get vitriol.

I gave up ages ago.

In my view a class traitor would be someone who sides with the filthy rag that supported Thatcher against the miners, supported the poll tax, is pro-war, racist, shows as much naked flesh as it can get away with, carries out stings dressed as arabs....fuck fill in the blanks with anything you like. The Murdoch empire or a Scots socialist? I know which side of that particular fence I'm on.

I know who I think the class traitors are here, that's for sure. And it's not Sheridan, it's the holier-than-thous posting so-called 'facts' in here. Expect a drip-drip up until next May.

Yeah, I see what you're saying Dexter. I'm not defending Tommy Sheridan, I've met him and I think he's a twat with a big ego. All I was saying was that I'd prefer Tommy to the otherside.

If I were on the exec and Tommy had said I'm suing I'd have said good luck to you, I can't back you, and if you lose you'll have to deal with it and I won't lie in court for you. So, Tommy, good luck and please don't tell me anything I'd be better of not knowing and do bare in mind that if I'm asked in court about anything you've told me I'll tell the truth.

What do these cunts do. They ask him about his private life. Minute the meeting. Then some of them give the minutes of the meeting to a newspaper with a sworn avidavitt. So the court knows about the meeting (that's how they all ended up on the stand).

And his so called friends secretly video tape him when he's having a conversation him.

With backstabbing cunts like these for friends and comrades, who needs enemies.

I hope Tommy wins in court again, not because he isn't some egotistical twat, but because the otherside and the scummy rag are worse.
 
danny la rouge said:
But don't you see that his behaviour has only proved how necessary that was?
Pathetic. And incredibly two-faced.

Listen to yourself. The end justifies the means?

Backstabbing a professed friend is ok? Secretly taping him and selling/giving it to the enemy is ok?

Morally it's better for Sheridan to go to jail and the NotW to win in appeal....for what? For...justice, aye?

You are the Murdoch empire mate, just a smaller version but still as nasty.

No difference at all.

You wouldn't get my vote, that's for sure. Nor would anyone who agrees with you.
 
Guilty Until Proved Innocent

How can you be shore that he is guilty.
He may have said this in Bravado; like has been stated by CLASS TRAITORS recentely one of his faults is arrogance and being over egotistical.

If he is guilty how does he think that he can blag his way out of this one. Tapes could have been manufactured by NOTW, could you put this past these scumbags.

I wonder how many pieces of silver it took for his 'ex'-junkie 'friend' to screw him like this.

lets hope he ends in the same way as any other Judas!!!!:mad: :rolleyes: :mad:
 
Guilty Until Proved Innocent

How can you be shore that he is guilty.
He may have said this in Bravado; like has been stated by CLASS TRAITORS recentely one of his faults is arrogance and being over egotistical.

If he is guilty how does he think that he can blag his way out of this one. Tapes could have been manufactured by NOTW, could you put this past these scumbags.

I wonder how many pieces of silver it took for his 'ex'-junkie 'friend' to screw him like this.

lets hope he ends in the same way as any other Judas!!!!:mad: :rolleyes: :mad:
 
danny la rouge said:
But don't you see that his behaviour has only proved how necessary that was?

Nope, if one of my friends behaved in an outrageous way I'd tell them we weren't friends anymore, end of. I wouldn't pretend we were still mates to gain their trust and then get them to secretly tell me lots of personal stuff which I'd secretly video tape and show the tape to other people and eventually sell it to the News of The Screws.
 
Nigel said:
How can you be shore that he is guilty.
He may have said this in Bravado; like has been stated by CLASS TRAITORS recentely one of his faults is arrogance and being over egotistical.

If he is guilty how does he think that he can blag his way out of this one. Tapes could have been manufactured by NOTW, could you put this past these scumbags.

I wonder how many pieces of silver it took for his 'ex'-junkie 'friend' to screw him like this.

lets hope he ends in the same way as any other Judas!!!!:mad: :rolleyes: :mad:

Oh we can be sure Tommy is guilty mate. I didn't doubt Tommy was guilty even when I was cheering when he won his liable trial, did you? Seriously mate did you? Like I said it was about who was the biggest bunch of bastards. On the one hand was Tommy the egotical love rat and swinger, on the other was the biggest bunch of backstabbing cunts I've ever come across in my entire life plus the News of the Screws. Easy choice, Tommy despite everything. This video proves to me that I was right to think the otherside were the bigger cunts. Asking someone round, pretending to be their mate, asking them lots of personal questions that one would only tell to their closet friends, and secretly filming it. Fucken hell, it doesn't get much worse.
 
DexterTCN said:
You are the Murdoch empire mate, just a smaller version but still as nasty.
And you are so blinded by leader love, that you can't see the wood for the trees. Follow the big man, right or wrong. Worship at the altar of personality cult. That's exactly how the SSP got into the mess in was in when people were secretly taping each other.

In case you have forgotten - I am not a member of the SSP, or or Solidarity, or of any party. Precisely because of that kind of travesty.

But the facts are these:
1. Sheridan was known to have had an energetic and varied sex life, and on occasion when details reached them, his comrades had sought assurance it would ever become public and compromise the work of the party. He said no chance, there was never going to be any evidence.

2. When the anonymous story came out, it was immediately clear to those who knew him that this was Sheridan. It was also clear that one of his partners over the years was a journalist, well-known in Scotland since her days on broadsheets, and now writing as a "Sexpert" for the NotW. So his assurances had been false, and he knew it, since carrying on with a journalist was hardly discrete.

3. The meeting was called before Sheridan was named by the paper. It was called because a strategy was needed on how to deal with the story. It was only a matter of time before his name was made public. Any organisation would seek a strategy to deal with a publicity threat. That has been painted as being something of evil intent by posters, but ignoring the issue would not have been sensible.

4. Sheridan didn't want to come clean in public, he thought he could face down the NotW. He was warned that doing so might destroy the SSP. That warning was correct.

Had he said "Yes, that was me." the majority of his electoral support might have said "so what?" and some might even have said "good; there's more to him than we imagined".

5. Sheridan's determination to deny a true story meant doing public damage to innocent people. People like Katrine Trolle, her only 'crime' being to get sexually involved with Sheridan. It meant dragging her in front of the courts, humiliating her, and then calling her a liar. It meant putting her job at risk, and hoping she would be seen as a perjurer.

It also meant lying about a plot against him, a plot to falsely smear him, to falsely pin the NotW story on him when it hadn't been him. This lie deliberately destroyed the SSP, the most successful parliamentary socialist party since the ILP. And I notice none of Sheridan's supporters here are prepared to say they believe that lie. Again.

6. In that atmosphere is it surprising that minutes were taken? If I were Sheridan I'd have wanted minutes at that EC meeting: an accurate minute protects both sides. The minutes were kept only by one EC member, and the party fought the courts to protect the confidentiality of those minutes. To the extent of Alan McCombs going to prison.

7. But in the atmosphere of distrust sweeping the party, is it surprising others also wanted evidence? Certainly secretly taping a friend and comrade is a bizarre and unusual thing to do. I've never felt I had to do it. But it does show how paranoid things had got. But that is a direct consequence of Sheridan's course of action.

8. They tape was only made public after Sheridan had trashed the party, called his comrades liars and plotters and scabs (all false accusations, better suited to himself). It had been intended as a private measure between a few people. But now the names of good socialists had to be cleared.

Of course Sheridan fans think that the names, lives, and reputations of as many good socialists as necessary can be trashed as long as the Great Leader wins his personal battles. That anything the people he turns on do to complain is 'disloyal' and 'evil'. That they have no right to fight back, because all that matters is that the Great Leader doesn't have to admit the truth.

And the pathetic truth is only a sex scandal. If he'd had any guts he'd have owned up. Sex doesn't matter, it isn't an issue to most people. Who cares? Sheridan cared, and he cared so much he trashed friends, lovers, and comrades and wrecked the party he helped to build.

But if people don't care about sex, they do care about liars. And Sheridan has been exposed.
 
I heard Sheridan on the radio again today saying the tape is a fake. So has he made a complaint to the police? It is no longer a civil matter - the tape if genuine is evidence that Sheridan committed perjury. If it is fake, then whoever made it has concocted false evidence - that is a criminal offence. Sheridan should report it, if he really believes it to be fake.

I won't hold my breath.
 
I don't think he has to prove his innocence. Not in this country. Trial by media has not yet taken over entirely.

Sheridan won his case. I dont think he won it purely on the basis of his innocence, but also because of who his accusers were, Murdoch scum. I agree with that decision.

Sheridan didn't destroy the SSP, the SSP destroyed themselves through idiocy. Indeed the only time we hear about them is in regards to any news item re Sheridan. If Sheridan consolidates his position at the next election, the press will soon tire of them and the oxygen of publicty will be turned off.

I'm sorry you seem to think this means I'm against you larouge, that's just the way i see it. And I disagree entirely with your position...and no I don't give a toss about some woman who was shagging a married man, sorry. My interests are about local politics in Scotland.
 
DexterTCN said:
...getting reasoned debate from this lot...fat chance.

Oh DexterTCN, I don't wan't to be a bore, but JHE asked you earlier if you thought should Aitken & Archer have gone to prison, and I asked you if you thought Rosie Kane was a liar. I'm sure we'd still be interested to hear your reasoned views on these points.
 
Fullyplumped said:
Oh DexterTCN, I don't wan't to be a bore, but JHE asked you earlier if you thought should Aitken & Archer have gone to prison, and I asked you if you thought Rosie Kane was a liar. I'm sure we'd still be interested to hear your reasoned views on these points.

you might - most of us couldn't give a toss.....
 
Rosie Kane (born Rosemary Kane on June 5, 1961 in Glasgow) is a member of the Scottish Parliament for Glasgow. She is a member of the Scottish Socialist Party and the Industrial Workers of the World (Wobblies).

From - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosie_Kane


Wobbly by name wobbly by nature……
 
DexterTCN said:
I don't think he has to prove his innocence.
No he doesn't. He can remain silent. But I have a feeling you are talking about the sexual activities - I don't give a toss about those, as I have said on thread after thread, including thise one. What I'm interested in is his behaviour after that.

And my suggestion about reporting the video to the police is merely to save him money. If it is a fake, that is a criminal offence, because it would be false evidence that he committed perjury.

Sheridan won his case. I dont think he won it purely on the basis of his innocence, but also because of who his accusers were, Murdoch scum. I agree with that decision.
He won it because the jury decided to answer the question "who do you prefer, Sheridan or the News of the World". It wasn't the question they were asked, but it's the one they answered.

The unfortunate side effect was the impact that had on those not allied with the NotW who had been called as witnesses. Of course, those of a simplistic mindset think that all who gave testiment against Sheridan were on the side of the NotW. But that's because people of that mindset think the witnesses should have lied. There are many reasons they should not have in this instance. Not least because when the truth comes out they would be exposed as liars, and that would damage the party immensely, not to mention put them at risk of prison over something that isn't a matter of principle or even political. Sheridan was warned of this, but he wanted them to lie anyway. That's why he's furious at them.

Sheridan didn't destroy the SSP,
He absolutely did.
the SSP destroyed themselves through idiocy.
the idiocy of not lying in court to support a leader who was eventually going to be found out? I don't call that idiocy.

Indeed the only time we hear about them is in regards to any news item re Sheridan.
You obviously don't live in Scotland, because that isn't actually true. Although it is the case that he is a supreme media player.

If Sheridan consolidates his position at the next election,
He won't; he'll more than likely be in prison for perjury, or soonm after.
the press will soon tire of them and the oxygen of publicty will be turned off.
Possibly. So socialists should support Great Leaders to keep the publicity, even if they are lying traitors?
I'm sorry you seem to think this means I'm against you larouge,
I don't; I think you have been duped by the Great Leader.
and no I don't give a toss about some woman who was shagging a married man, sorry.
That's not the first time you've said totally unnacceptable things about women. Who was the married man? Sheridan? So why do you give a toss about him? Is it OK for men to shag around but not women?

And if you admit Sheridan was swinging, why do you think it was OK for him to tell that lie about the SSP EC? That they falsely and randomly connected him to the unnamed MSP story in order to plot against him? Because if you admit the story was about him, then you must realise his fantasy about the "plot" and the "lies" is a strategy to say he wasn't swinging. And that his calling them "scabs" was therefore unfounded and disgraceful. And that the SSP need not have been destroyed.

He is an egotist and a class traitor. Nothing more or less. He is filth.
 
Sheridan won his case.

The SSP, and of this I have absolutely no doubt, have conspired to hand this video over to the Murdoch press. On Newsnight Scotland last night, Colin fox was entirely unconvincing in his protestations about this.
 
Good Morning, Dexter - just getting ready to answer that wee question of mine?

Your wee green light has gone out so I won't ask again.
 
DexterTCN said:
Sheridan won his case.

The SSP, and of this I have absolutely no doubt, have conspired to hand this video over to the Murdoch press. On Newsnight Scotland last night, Colin fox was entirely unconvincing in his protestations about this.

So now Fox is a liar, and Sheridan is a paragon of honesty? Got your morals (and common sense) in a twist there.

It seems to me the argument of the Sheridanistas rests on just two points -
1/ A simplistic "them and us" (the kind of argument that has some on the left supporting every dictator, tyrant, reactionary, racist and religious fundamentalist regime in the world that ever had a row with the USA.) You're either with Tommy or the NOTW? Sorry, but Tommy decided to pander to the moralistic agenda of the NOTW to save his own skin, not the SSP loyalists.

2/ The classic Trotskyist (sorry to those trots supporting SSP/UL, but this is how I, and many non-trots see it) argument that lying, cheating, stealing, manipulation, underhandness, utterly-ruthless-shitbaggery is justified against the class enemy. The definition of the class enemy basically then comes down to anyone not supporting the line of your sect. This is akin to the argument of Nechaev and his revolutionary catechism - and is justified by reference to the holy word of the "great man" LT himself. It means that non-Trotskyists can just about never trust Trots not to stab them in the back. They of course will reply that anyone that does not recognise that this sort of behaviour is necessary are naive and doomed to fail. Forgive me for saying that many of us would rather fail with principles intact than descend to the moral cesspit that the attitude of "revolutionary catechists" leads to. The end result of a "success" of these methods can be seen in every Stalinist dictatorship the global working class have had the misfortune to suffer.....
 
greenman said:
non-Trotskyists can just about never trust Trots not to stab them in the back
whereas Trots already KNOW they can never trust other Trots not to stab them in the back, and adjust their behaviour accordingly. Eventually most working people realise this too which is why trotskyism is so despised.
 
Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

"I categorically deny that I was involved in that tape. They may have my voice and they may have inserted my voice in a tape but then again, who framed Roger Rabbit?"

Who%20Framed%20Roger%20Rabbit%201.jpg


See it on video from Channel 4 News.
 
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