New 'left-wing' think tank....

[treelover]

so many of the threads on P/P seem to develop into internal feuds and navel gazing, please stop...

 

[butchersapron]

FFS, we're talking about how things like this are or are not part of a wider class based social response to conditions - whether the w/c are just there to be represented by the middle class profs behind this think-tank or whether they're the key behind changing things.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Unlikely, unless she has some special interest in participatory and democratic research methodologies - but the initial operating assumptions should be open to subsequent critique and contestation by the participants themselves.

Ring, ring, ring. "Hello is that Private Eye, do you still have a section called 'Pseuds Corner'?"

 

[danny la rouge]

so many of the threads on P/P seem to develop into internal feuds and navel gazing, please stop...

This is neither, so far. It's been mostly germane and sensible.

 

[articul8]

No, you're not are you. Why on earth would my mum be a participant in this pluralist tale? Is she needed?

I think I do understand what you're driving at - that however broad and clued-up the make-up, a remote, nationally centred (in London) group of people who decide what kind of subjects they're interested in and what kinds of questions they want to ask, are inevitably do-gooders bringing something (loaded with their own assumptions) to the great unwashed and "involving" people into a project over which they have no real ownership.

I accept there is a big danger of this. It would be better, ideally, to start at the other end altogether - not with the composition of the "experts" but with the needs/problems/aspirations of the community - your mum and her neighbours. They should be the ones deciding what their problems are, thinking about what might be necessary to solve them, and what if any technical expertise they might require to be better equipped.

OK, yes. But these things don't necessarily emerge organically. And there are lots of barriers to making it work.

 

[Steel Icarus]

OK, yes. But these things don't necessarily emerge organically. And there are lots of barriers to making it work.

Not the least of which is chaps like yourself with the default setting of "let's remove the scales from w/c eyes" which you're now backpedalling away from.

 

[articul8]

where have i ever argued that?

 

[Steel Icarus]

chaps like yourself

 

[articul8]

If they're saying that they're not very much like me

 

[treelover]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/28/ed-miliband-bold-progressive-politics

John MacDonnell in the Guardian today, looks like the LRC is moving up a gear...

btw, very interesting poll mentioned in the article..

 

[Random]

OK, yes. But these things don't necessarily emerge organically. And there are lots of barriers to making it work.

Yes, the main barrier is that the organised labour movement would rather put its resources into media, think-tanks and supporting Labour. Don't shed crocodile tears for all the working class self-organisation that's not happening.

 

[articul8]

they aren't crocodile tears - I've been actively involved in trying to build a local anti-cuts group. And some of the barriers I'm referring to have nothing (directly) to do with the organised Labour movement - they are more to do with child-care, working hours, social atomisation, problems with different languages, caring responsibilities, all kinds of shit

 

[butchersapron]

And some of the barriers I'm referring to have nothing (directly) to do with the organised Labour movement - they are more to do with child-care, working hours, social atomisation, problems with different languages, caring responsibilities, all kinds of shit

Wow - these aren't labour movement problems? Here we have the bubble talking honestly for once.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Owen Jones on class:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...he-political-wing-of-the-wealthy-7601024.html



His solution?

He seems to be trapped in the same political bubble as articul8.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, it's important to re-think the think-tank model itself. Participatory, collective research and evaluation - widening involvement would all be desirable.

What stopped that being the case? That's what you should address before "re-thinking the model", as well as "how can we stop the think-tanks re-devolving into shills for consumer capitalism?".

 

[ViolentPanda]

where have i ever argued that?

He's saying that it's a vibe you and your ilk (from the Webbs onward) give off.

 

[articul8]

Wow - these aren't labour movement problems? Here we have the bubble talking honestly for once.

Woooaahh there - expressed that very badly - I didn't mean they weren't problems that the Labour movement isn't (pretty centrally) concerned with. I'm saying that these "barriers" won't suddenly be lifted whatever attitude the unions do or don't take to the Labour party.

 

[articul8]

He's saying that it's a vibe you and your ilk (from the Webbs onward) give off.

Fuck off - I am not now, nor have I ever been, a Fabian

 

[butchersapron]

We're talking about participation in some union led group that you're organising - that you didn't see this as a labour movement problem - as external - as an organising problem. How long is this going to go on?

 

[butchersapron]

Woooaahh there - expressed that very badly - I didn't mean they weren't problems that the Labour movement isn't (pretty centrally) concerned with. I'm saying that these "barriers" won't suddenly be lifted whatever attitude the unions do or don't take to the Labour party.

The more you post the less time i have for you. I've tried with you, but you're rank and you know you are - you've made the decision to be rank.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Fuck off - I am not now, nor have I ever been, a Fabian

I used to be a member of the Fabian Society when I was a member of the Labour Party. I cancelled my membership after leaving the party but for some reason I still get Fabian literature and their annual book, although they haven't had penny off me for two decades. Their problem not mine. I don't read the book, it is meaningless.

 

[danny la rouge]

He seems to be trapped in the same political bubble as articul8.

I wonder if he is Art8?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fuck off - I am not now, nor have I ever been, a Fabian

You may not be or have ever been a member of the Fabian Society, but your politics stinks of Fabianism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I wonder if he is Art8?

One hopes not, if only for his sanity's sake.

 

[butchersapron]

Everything i have done in the past is right and everything i do in the future is right.

 

[articul8]

We're talking about participation in some union led group that you're organising - that you didn't see this as a labour movement problem - as external - as an organising problem. How long is this going to go on?

My point was not that they are external, but that the barriers are objective - and won't be overcome by unions just changing their party affiliation. Someone (Random?) was saying that this (the link with Labour) was the main barrier to the emergence of grassroots community organising. It isn't.

 

[articul8]

You may not be or have ever been a member of the Fabian Society, but your politics stinks of Fabianism.

does it fuck - you wouldn't say that if you'd read what I posted. I realise you'd quite like to have a stereotypical left liberal to have a pop at. But that ain't me (babe).

 

[butchersapron]

I'm putting pressue on them from the left!

Are you? Where? How?

Let's have a list.

 

[articul8]

putting pressure on the Fabians? Err, they are just a talking shop, and a rather dull one

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah the putting pressure on model is shit.

Unless, unless it can work elsewhere. Can it work in the labour party atricul8?