Nazi Concentration Camps

[ymu]

Interesting stuff from an at first glance credible source. Howeve I'm hearing this from educators in the region who are speaking about both sides being told to fear the other.

To be fair, there are almost no Palestinian men over 16 who haven't been arrested and detained, and an average Palestinian death toll of 2/day since 2000 (last time I checked), not to mention the frequent reinvasions of towns and refugee camps, hundreds of checkpoints and road barriers within the West Bank preventing freedom of movement and necessitating goods to be transferred by hand from vehicles either side. There is good reason to fear uniformed Israelis in the West Bank (and indeed to love the wonderful Israelis of Machsom Watch and other groups); the fear/hate is not anti-semitic in origin.

But thats the secular groups not the Islamists (and yes I do know that there are religious extremists on both sides). I don't doubt for one minuite that the majority of people both in Israel itself and the occupied territories, Arab and Jew want a lasting peace but this feeling of the majority has to be transmuted into effective political action.

The Islamic groups (Hamas and Islamic Jihad) did not exist prior to the mid-1980s and the start of the first intifada. Yes, Israel missed a chance for lasting peace and instead pushed their luck a bit far by keeping Palestinians under harsh military rule whilst diverting funding to the Islamist opposition (ref Graham Usher and others). That these groups took nearly 40 years to come into existence is not indicative of endemic anti-semitism, or indeed militant Islamism, amongst Palestinians.

But this is not a thread on Israel/Palestine. The derail continues because certain people (not you) on this thread are trying to make the Holocaust survivors and the Jewish people in general culpable for Israel's subsequent crimes. We could start a new thread if you want, here is not the place.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Your post implies that the 14 million people who share in being part of the Jewish culture are somehow homogenous. We're not, we're (to borrow a metaphor from the Anglicans) a "broad church". We consist of religiouses, seculars, people from every point of the political compass, of every shade of skin-colour, people from every trade and profession.

In other words, we're just like everyone else except for a single label that denotes the culture we were born to.

That applies to most minorities; but to the majority, one word fits all: jew, black, whatever.

And to christians, you're the children of the people who killed christ.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I think you're being wilfully ignorant. There are huge amounts of evidence, ranging from oral testimony through to not long opened Israeli archives which have thrown new light on what happened. Pushing your JVL screeds that promote the idea that the Arabs simply left just shows you're not keeping up with what historians are discovering about the naqba.

Then why aren't those two historians in agreement; or are one or both of them being wilfully ignorant also?

Is everyone wilfully ignorant who doesn't agree with your view?

 

[Detroit City]

And to christians, you're the children of the people who killed christ.

i agree...the american evangelical christians are working together politically with the Jews now but in the end they say the Jews will all burn in hell for eternity.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's quite astonishing that at no point do you say you assess the evidence of the claims. What you are saying here is that you are quite literally prejudiced, that it doesn't matter if the official version of events is true or not you'll argue it. Your candour is staggering.

If that's what you take from my words, then you quite literally can't read. Your bias is staggering.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You don't seem to be, but we'll test that in detail on the appropriate threads

Gosh, I hope I get a passing grade.

 

[ymu]

i agree...the american evangelical christians are working together politically with the Jews now but in the end they say the Jews will all burn in hell for eternity.

Yet they still call themselves Zionists, and are technically correct to do so. This is the problem with lazy terminology and/or the deliberate conflation of entirely different terminologies to serve a propaganda cause. There are far more Christian Zionists than Jewish Zionists, and far more Christian Zionists who are not Rapturists than are. Using Zionism in the sense practiced by the state of Israel, there is now a majority of Jews worldwide who are anti- or a-Zionist than there are Jews who are Zionist. And ~30% of Israelis are not Jews, let alone Zionists.

 

[Spion]

Then why aren't those two historians in agreement; or are one or both of them being wilfully ignorant also?

Is everyone wilfully ignorant who doesn't agree with your view?

You're really starting to parade your ignorance now proudly now. Both those historians agree that hundreds of Palestinian villages and city quarters were ethnically cleansed. They disagree as to what extent it was a pre-meditated formal plan.

(What turned out to be the guiding documents of the expulsion of the Arabs, plans C & D are available, and I can quote you some choice orders. I'll get round to that tho)

 

[Spion]

If that's what you take from my words, then you quite literally can't read. Your bias is staggering.

I can't read what's not there. At no point do you tell us how you assess the evidence. You simply say, "When ten people come on decrying some horror or atrocity committed by Isreal, I'll go research it. Most every time, there will be a different version of events. When I find that, I'll read it, post it, and argue it."

I read that as you go looking for a pro-Israeli quote, you read it, post it and argue it. It's good to have you admit your methods.

 

[Spion]

Gosh, I hope I get a passing grade.

You're in the corner with a pointy hat so far, pal

But, come on, prove I've got you wrong

 

[ymu]

You're really starting to parade your ignorance now proudly now. Both those historians agree that hundreds of Palestinian villages and city quarters were ethnically cleansed. They disagree as to what extent it was a pre-meditated formal plan.

(What turned out to be the guiding documents of the expulsion of the Arabs, plans C & D are available, and I can quote you some choice orders. I'll get round to that tho)

The other difference is that Benny Morris thinks it was necessary and argues that they should have finished the job back then.

Benny Morris is the dean of Israeli 'new historians', who have done so much to create a critical vision of Zionism--its expulsion and continuing oppression of the Palestinians, its pressing need for moral and political atonement. His 1987 book, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, chronicled the Zionist murders, terrorism, and ethnic cleansing that drove 600,000-750,000 Palestinians from their homes in 1948, thus refuting the myth that they fled under the orders of Arab leaders. A second edition of this book is due out this month, chronicling even more massacres, and a previously unsuspected number of rapes and murders of Palestinian women. Thus Morris continues to provide crucial documentation for Palestinians fighting the heritage of Al-Nakba, "The Catastrophe."

But in an astonishing recent Ha'aretz interview, after summarizing his new research, Morris proceeds to argue for the necessity of ethnic cleansing in 1948. He faults David Ben-Gurion for failing to expel all Arab Israelis, and hints that it may be necessary to finish the job in the future. Though he calls himself a left-wing Zionist, he invokes and praises the fascist Vladimir Jabotinsky in calling for an "iron wall" solution to the current crisis. Referring to Sharon's Security Wall, he says, "Something like a cage has to be built for them. I know that sounds terrible. It is really cruel. But there is no choice. There is a wild animal there that has to be locked up in one way or another." He calls the conflict between Israelis and Arabs a struggle between civilization and barbarism, and suggests an analogy frequently drawn by Palestinians, though from the other side of the Winchester: "Even the great American democracy could not have been created without the annihilation of the Indians."

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

2) is the one which - being arguably the biggest unresolved injustice of our times - perhaps most undermines the possibility of a peace on this planet

Not quite.

The flight and expulsion of Germans during and after World War II refers to the forced migration and ethnic cleansing of German nationals (Reichsdeutsche) and some ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche) from various European states and territories 1943–1945 and in the first three years after World War II 1946–48.

Many Germans fled their areas of residence under vague and haphazardly implemented evacuation orders of the Nazi German government 1943, 1944, and in early 1945, or based on their own decisions to leave in 1945–1948. Others remained and were later forced to leave by local authorities. However, in no East European nation were all ethnic Germans forced to leave. Census figures in 1950 place the total number of ethnic Germans still living in Eastern Europe at approximately 2.6 million, about 12 percent of the pre-war total.[1]

The majority of the flights and expulsions occurred in areas of today's Czech Republic, Poland and Russia. Others occurred in territories of today's Slovakia, Hungary, Serbia (predominantly in the Vojvodina region), Lithuania, Slovenia and other regions of Central and Eastern Europe.

By some accounts, this forced migration of ethnic Germans resulted in the transfer of between 13.5-16.5 million people and was the largest of several similar post-World War II migrations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You're really starting to parade your ignorance now proudly now. Both those historians agree that hundreds of Palestinian villages and city quarters were ethnically cleansed. They disagree as to what extent it was a pre-meditated formal plan. )

Are there any other historians who have come to different conclusions?

 

[ymu]

Not quite.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

Yeah. That's what, 50 million+ people today, given natural population growth rates. All living in those damn European refugee camps and the media never even report on it, the bastards.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I can't read what's not there. At no point do you tell us how you assess the evidence. You simply say, "When ten people come on decrying some horror or atrocity committed by Isreal, I'll go research it. Most every time, there will be a different version of events. When I find that, I'll read it, post it, and argue it."

I read that as you go looking for a pro-Israeli quote, you read it, post it and argue it. It's good to have you admit your methods.

The rest of what I said.

What I try to do is quite simple. When ten people come on decrying some horror or atrocity committed by Isreal, I'll go research it. Most every time, there will be a different version of events. When I find that, I'll read it, post it, and argue it.

In the same way that you think it wrong that I only seem to know one side of the story, I think it's important that people reading these threads not come away with the impression that 'your' side of the story is the only true version, either.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yeah. That's what, 50 million+ people today, given natural population growth rates. All living in those damn European refugee camps and the media never even report on it, the bastards.

It's true; the germans aren't living in refugee camps any longer. The nations to which they fled allowed them to assimilate, even if some of them continue to press for the right to return.

This is obviously a different state of affairs from the palestinians, whose arab hosts have not and will not allow them to assimilate into the host countries, instead forcing them to remain in the camps.

I know the argument is that they should have been allowed to return to Israel/Palestine; but that didn't happen, and won't for the foreseeable future. In the circumstances, the charitable thing for the host nations to do, would be to allow the Palestinians to assimilate, and to press for their right of return from a more liveable situation than the perennial camps.

 

[ymu]

I know the argument is that they should have been allowed to return to Israel/Palestine; but that didn't happen, and won't for the foreseeable future. In the circumstances, the charitable thing for the host nations to do, would be to allow the Palestinians to assimilate, and to press for their right of return from a more liveable situation than the perennial camps.

Yeah. The Arabs are the only people who don't willingly absorb any and all refugees fleeing from warzones. It was a pure administrative error that had North America and Europe accidentally close their borders to Jews in the 1930s and 1940s. But the Arabs did it deliberately, the bastards!

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yeah. The Arabs are the only people who don't willingly absorb any and all refugees fleeing from warzones. It was a pure administrative error that had North America and Europe accidentally close their borders to Jews in the 1930s and 1940s. But the Arabs did it deliberately, the bastards!

But we're not talking about the 30s and 40s; we're talking about the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s.

And does the wrongful exclusion of jews from NA and Europe in the thirties and forties somehow convert the exclusion of palestinians by arab states into anything other than a wrongful act?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yeah. The Arabs are the only people who don't willingly absorb any and all refugees fleeing from warzones.:

We're not talking any and all, we're talkng about the 6 million palestinians; not a lot, given the number of arab states available to receive them.

The arab states seem to decry their fate, but when they continue to refuse to let the palestinians assimilate, it looks a lot like crocodile tears.

 

[ymu]

But we're not talking about the 30s and 40s; we're talking about the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s.

And does the wrongful exclusion of jews from NA and Europe in the thirties and forties somehow convert the exclusion of palestinians by arab states into anything other than a wrongful act?

Obviously not. It's you who appears to be arguing that the wrongs done to one group justify subsequent wrongs done to by them to others, and that the appalling behaviour of the neighbouring Arab states somehow justifies Israel's crimes. I've never argued that the Arab states are innocent, and I don't know any Palestinians who do either; many argue that they are worse, but none of them argue that it gives Israel any moral justification.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Obviously not. It's you who appears to be arguing that the wrongs done to one group justify subsequent wrongs done to by them to others, and that the appalling behaviour of the neighbouring Arab states somehow justifies Israel's crimes. I've never argued that the Arab states are innocent, and I don't know any Palestinians who do either; many argue that they are worse, but none of them argue that it gives Israel any moral justification.

Well, that might be the first time I've heard you say something negative about the arab states.

Let's face it: the humanitarian tragedy of the palestinians would be a lot less, if they could live and work in Cairo, Tripoli, Damascus, etc.

Seems like such an expedient, if interim, solution.

 

[ymu]

We're not talking any and all, we're talkng about the 6 million palestinians; not a lot, given the number of arab states available to receive them.

The arab states seem to decry their fate, but when they continue to refuse to let the palestinians assimilate, it looks a lot like crocodile tears.

So you have no problem with an Al-Jihad-esque one state solution that repatriated the majority of the 5 million Israeli Jews who have dual nationality? Well why on earth didn't you say so! This could have been so much easier. I don't agree with your position as I don't believe in forcibly expatriating millions of people even if they do have an automatic legal right to citizenship elsewhere. But you should have made yourself clearer; we've spent so long talking at cross purposes.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I don't believe in forcibly expatriating millions of people even if they do have an automatic legal right to citizenship elsewhere. But you should have made yourself clearer; we've spent so long talking at cross purposes.

Well, many millions of people were forcibly expatriated at the end of ww2 from various places; the palestinians remain one of the few, if not the only group, forced to continue to live in camps by their host nations.

Monstrous.

 

[Spion]

We're not talking any and all, we're talkng about the 6 million palestinians; not a lot, given the number of arab states available to receive them.

The arab states seem to decry their fate, but when they continue to refuse to let the palestinians assimilate, it looks a lot like crocodile tears.

That's right Johnny, blame the victims and reward the thief. You're a moral car crash, and a supporter of racist ethnic cleansing and theft on a grand scale.

So, if I stole your house while you were out I could expect your relatives to take you in and that'd be the last I'd hear of it? What's your address? Next time you're on vacation I'm in there and you'll have no comeback

 

[Spion]

Well, many millions of people were forcibly expatriated at the end of ww2 from various places; the palestinians remain one of the few, if not the only group, forced to continue to live in camps by their host nations.

Monstrous.

It's very noticable you only have outrage for those who took in the victims of ethnic cleansing rather than the perpetrators. Are you happy being so clearly identified with racist thieves?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's very noticable you only have outrage for those who took in the victims of ethnic cleansing rather than the perpetrators. Are you happy being so clearly identified with racist thieves?

They are one example. Also, the sudeten germans were ethnic germans, living in an area that became czechoslovakia. I think the argument has been made that not all germans were nazis.

As well, I haven't expressed outrage; I've pointed out the fact that a number of ethnic groups were displaced in the turmoil that followed WW2.

 

[Spion]

They are one example. Also, the sudeten germans were ethnic germans, living in an area that became czechoslovakia. I think the argument has been made that not all germans were nazis.

Get to bed. You're confused

As well, I haven't expressed outrage; I've pointed out the fact that a number of ethnic groups were displaced in the turmoil that followed WW2.

A few posts up you said it was monstrous that the Arab states hadn't allowed the Palestinians to fully assimilate. I've never heard you refer to the ethnic cleansing that led to that in similar terms.

 

[ymu]

Quite a few articles recently arguing that the rabidly illogical support for Israel in its current form is sounding the death knell. It's the major weakness of propaganda-based regimes; they always get found out eventually.

The Coming Collapse of Zionism

 

[invisibleplanet]

Again

From p132 of the Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945 Catalogue from Dachau Museum, published 1978 by the Comite International de Dachau.

The 499 prisoners from Dachau arrived here on Oct 29, 1942. They were in the worst conceivable condition, and physically very weak Muselmänner. A third of them may be fit for work after a two-week convalescent period. The prisoners were absolutely unsuitable for work on the "Buna" project. The group consists of 50 who are of use, 162 without a profession, and 287 agricultural workers. On Oct. 30, 1942 186 prisoners arrived from Ravensbrueck - their physical condition is better than that of the Dachau prisoners. This group is made up of 128 with useful professions and 58 without a profession.

Dept. IIIa

signed: Schwarz
SS Obersturmfuehrer

e2a: here=Auschwitz

 

[goldenecitrone]

It's very noticable you only have outrage for those who took in the victims of ethnic cleansing rather than the perpetrators. Are you happy being so clearly identified with racist thieves?

Is that what you'd call the Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and many other nationalities who kicked out the ethnic Germans after WWII. Why aren't you starting some threads up about them? Hypocrite.