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Nazi Concentration Camps

Spion said:
If that's the case and there are claims for compensation or return they should be satisfied. Don't you agree?

Now, why do you want deny that to victims of theft elsewhere? Or is ethnic cleansing and theft OK in your book?

If it's what's equitable, then sure.

But in the meantime, I'd like to see the Palestinians be treated as humanely as all the other groups displaced during the second world war, and be allowed to assimilate into the countries where they're warehoused.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Doesn't it bother you that you can't see that millions of people were unfairly displaced following the second world war, but only the palestinians remain in the refugee camps?
I think anyone who is driven out of their home and has their business and land stolen should be allowed to return or be compensated. Why don't you?
 
ymu said:
It's amazing he is so repetitively critical of the undoubtedly shitty the actions of the Arab states, and occasionally even rightfully abhors the actions of the British Empire, but defends Israel's crimes so vigorously. Strange agenda.

You and others paint a picture of zionists [not jews: zionists], as fanatical warmongering criminals.

If you're right about that, then there's not a lot of hope that the Palestinians will be allowed to return any time soon, is there?

So in the interim, which may be a long time, there needs to be a stopgap solution to their plight.

That stopgap solution is to allow them to assimilate into the countries where they're housed, and whom allegedly support them in their cause.

That will end much of the immediate suffering: then the issue of return can be worked on.
 
ViolentPanda said:
You might very well say that, but I'd warn you to be prepared to be mocked, because you'd be talking shite.

Well, since you asked...

Palestine, prior to WW2, had a population balance of somewhere around 80-85% Gentile to 15-20% Jewish.
The Sudetendeutsche were only ever a (large) minority in Czechoslovakia.

The Palestinians didn't invite in the people who annexed their territory.
The Sudetendeutsche did.

I don't think you're following what I'm talking about.

I'm not talking about the annexation of the sudetenland by germany.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
That stopgap solution is to allow them to assimilate into the countries where they're housed, and whom allegedly support them in their cause.
If Israel - as the perpetrator of the theft - offered to pay for the necessary housing and infrastructure and the Palestinians agreed to that then there might be a chance for peace. Instead people like you want to see the victims and their 'relatives' pay for a crime committed against them.

Answer me one simple question: Why should Israel not be held accountable for the land and businesses it stole from the Palestinians?
 
Spion said:
If Israel - as the perpetrator of the theft - offered to pay for the necessary housing and infrastructure and the Palestinians agreed to that then there might be a chance for peace.

But these zionist criminals that you talk about are unlikely to do that.

Other countries sucked it up and assimilated millions of refugees without compensation from the originator countries; the same can happen with the palestinians.
 
Something else: it's like your own immigrant situation in UK. Some people say that immigrants are a huge drag on the country; but the studies seem to indicate that immigrants work hard to get established, and end up being productive, contributing members of society and the economy.

Why wouldn't the same apply to Palestinian immigrants in Egypt, Libya, etc?
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
But these zionist criminals that you talk about are unlikely to do that.
I suppose you'd have said the same about the leaders of the apartheid regime in SA, but the wronged against have a habit of prevailing against those that lie, kill and exploit.

At least I hope they do in Israel's case because we won't have one superpower for ever and if the China or Russia of 50 years hence want to start funding people against America's allies then the end of Israel could be a nasty and unjust one
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Something else: it's like your own immigrant situation in UK. Some people say that immigrants are a huge drag on the country; but the studies seem to indicate that immigrants work hard to get established, and end up being productive, contributing members of society and the economy.

Why wouldn't the same apply to Palestinian immigrants in Egypt, Libya, etc?
I believe there are some very successful Palestinian businesses already. I also think your image of refugee camps is a quite wrong and to suggest Palestinians aren't productive in their host societies is way off the mark.
 
Spion said:
I believe there are some very successful Palestinian businesses already. I also think your image of refugee camps is a quite wrong and to suggest Palestinians aren't productive in their host societies is way off the mark.
This isn't true, although Syria does treat them relatively well. Some of the refugees outside Palestine are considered to be worse off than those in Palestine; and that's according to Palestinians who are living under occupation.

http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?ReportId=72841
 
Spion said:
I suppose you'd have said the same about the leaders of the apartheid regime in SA, but the wronged against have a habit of prevailing against those that lie, kill and exploit.

Did the whites kick all the blacks out of SA? I must have missed that part.

Who did all the menial work when the blacks were away?
 
Spion said:
I believe there are some very successful Palestinian businesses already. I also think your image of refugee camps is a quite wrong and to suggest Palestinians aren't productive in their host societies is way off the mark.

Well then why don't they let them assimilate?
 
Spion said:
I suppose you'd have said the same about the leaders of the apartheid regime in SA, but the wronged against have a habit of prevailing against those that lie, kill and exploit.

At least I hope they do in Israel's case because we won't have one superpower for ever and if the China or Russia of 50 years hence want to start funding people against America's allies then the end of Israel could be a nasty and unjust one
I don't think the US superpower status will last anything like as long as 50 years the way they're going. Dubyanomics may be the best thing to ever happen to the Palestinians because Israel will collapse the instant the US economy does. Of course, another imperial power may step in; Israel will certainly be making plans for it. Let's just hope the crazies are nowhere near the big red button if they come under real threat.
 
ymu said:
This isn't true, although Syria does treat them relatively well. Some of the refugees outside Palestine are considered to be worse off than those in Palestine; and that's according to Palestinians who are living under occupation.

http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?ReportId=72841
You're saying it's not true that there are some very rich and successful Palestinian businessmen and that Palestinians are not not productive in their societies? That's all I said. I'm sure you know that conditions vary massively according to social class and country they're resident in
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Well then why don't they let them assimilate?
This is going round in circles. Why should the 'relatives' of the victim pay to make good for the crimes of another?

Don't bother, I already know your answer - because the Israelis are thieving racist cunts who will never relent
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
I'm just quoting you on that.
So I see. It's such a clever function of bulletin boards, eh?

Anyway, do you reward theft and racism elsewhere in your life or is it just Arabs who are so low as to deserve that treatment in JC's book?
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Did the whites kick all the blacks out of SA? I must have missed that part.

Who did all the menial work when the blacks were away?
Israel used the Palestinians as serf labour until the negotiations that led to the Oslo Accords were well underway and they had to make plans for "peace"; ie cut off all economic lifelines to the OPT and build a load of settlements to create "facts" on the ground. External closure was introduced to prevent Palestinians entering Israel and effectively place a permanent economic blockade on the OPT (internal closure is the network of 700+ checkpoints and roadblocks which prevent free travel within the OPT). The labour was replaced by a revolving door policy for immigrant labour, mainly from Asia and Eastern Europe.
 
Spion said:
You're saying it's not true that there are some very rich and successful Palestinian businessmen and that Palestinians are not not productive in their societies? That's all I said. I'm sure you know that conditions vary massively according to social class and country they're resident in
There are many successful Palestinians worldwide, including in Palestine. You referred specifically to the refugee camps, where there is extreme poverty, military repression, no citizenship rights and restrictions on job opportunities. Apologies if I misunderstood your post, but the treatment of those in the camps is atrocious. :(
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
If it's what's equitable, then sure.

But in the meantime, I'd like to see the Palestinians be treated as humanely as all the other groups displaced during the second world war, and be allowed to assimilate into the countries where they're warehoused.
As far as "assimilation" goes, only a minority of displaced persons settled in the countries they were "warehoused" in, another, smaller, minority were returned to countries behind the Iron Curtain, some (especially the French and Italian "guestworkers") returned to their home countries, and most of the ethnic Germans settled in West Germany. Given that most displaced persons were "warehoused" in West German territory, it made sense.
Why, though, should the secularised Palestinians, who had little in common with their more religious neighbours, have had to have altered their culture so drastically? That itself would have made their fate vastly different from the displaced persons. Add to that the fact that the secularised and politicised Palestinians were seen as a threat to internal stability by the rulers of Iraq, Egypt and Jordan, and we can see that even had they wished to be assimilated, it would have been nigh on impossible.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
You and others paint a picture of zionists [not jews: zionists], as fanatical warmongering criminals.
No, most people on these threads paint some Zionists as fanatical warmongering criminals, but we tend to bear in mind {because we know what we're talking about) that not all Zionists are like that.
That's why so many people qualify their statements about Zionists by affixing the word "nationalist".
If you're right about that, then there's not a lot of hope that the Palestinians will be allowed to return any time soon, is there?

So in the interim, which may be a long time, there needs to be a stopgap solution to their plight.

That stopgap solution is to allow them to assimilate into the countries where they're housed, and whom allegedly support them in their cause.
Except that anyone who's even slightly informed about the situation knows that it is more complex than that.
That will end much of the immediate suffering: then the issue of return can be worked on.
How do you trust a people who've spent 60 years stealing your rights, your land, your lives, to be true to any commitment?

What's that saying you North Americans are fond of? "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".
 
Spion said:
Anyway, do you reward theft and racism elsewhere in your life or is it just Arabs who are so low as to deserve that treatment in JC's book?

What reward?

I'm saying, do the humanitarian thing. In the same way that the millions of other people displaced at the end of WW2 by theft or racism were allowed to assimilate, let the Palestinians assimilate................and continue working on the right to return.
 
ymu said:
Israel used the Palestinians as serf labour until the negotiations that led to the Oslo Accords were well underway and they had to make plans for "peace"; ie cut off all economic lifelines to the OPT and build a load of settlements to create "facts" on the ground. External closure was introduced to prevent Palestinians entering Israel and effectively place a permanent economic blockade on the OPT (internal closure is the network of 700+ checkpoints and roadblocks which prevent free travel within the OPT). The labour was replaced by a revolving door policy for immigrant labour, mainly from Asia and Eastern Europe.

Ok. But surely it's the humanitarian thing to let them assimilate into the arab world.

You're just giving more evidence that zionists are apparently racist criminals. I don't think such people will back down soon.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Why, though, should the secularised Palestinians, who had little in common with their more religious neighbours, have had to have altered their culture so drastically? .

Egypt isn't relatively secular?
 
ViolentPanda said:
As far as "assimilation" goes, only a minority of displaced persons settled in the countries they were "warehoused" in, another, smaller, minority were returned to countries behind the Iron Curtain, some (especially the French and Italian "guestworkers") returned to their home countries, and most of the ethnic Germans settled in West Germany. Given that most displaced persons were "warehoused" in West German territory, it made sense..


Nevertheless, during the two great evacuations (the first, between March 24 and the beginning of April 1942; the second, between August 10 and September 1, 1942), from Krasnovodsk across the Caspian Sea to Pahlavi, and the smaller overland evacuations from Ashkhabad to Mashhad (March and September 1942), about 115 000 Polish citizens (including some 37 000 civilians, of whom about 18 300 were children) left the Soviet Union. The soldiers of Gen. Anders' army went on to fight in many battles, including the one at Monte Cassino; the civilians, because they could not be repatriated, were forced to remain in foreign lands for the remainder of the war.

The first stop of the refugees evacuated with Anders' army was Iran, where they found temporary quarters in large transit camps initially located in Pahlavi and Mashhad, later in Teheran and Ahvaz. While Gen. Anders' troops were subsequently transferred to Palestine and from there to Iraq, the civilians remained in Iran. To accommodate the refugees, a sprawling stationary camp was established in Isfahan. Because it housed several sub-camps for the thousands of orphaned Polish children, Isfahan came to be known as the "City of Polish Children". The relief assistance afforded by Polish, British, American, and Iranian authorities improved their living conditions and brought the devastating contagious diseases under control - diseases, acquired in the Soviet Union, which continued to rob the refugees of their lives even after liberation (over 2000 refugees died in Iran alone). In time, various Polish institutions, including 24 schools serving some 3000 students, were established in Iran and several Polish periodicals and newspapers appeared.

Their stay in Iran, however, was cut short because of the hostility of the Soviets occupying Northern Iran and because of the threat of the German armies which had already reached the Caucasus. Eventually, the refugees were transferred from Iran to other countries, such as Lebanon, Palestine, India, Uganda, Kenya, Tanganyika, North and South Rhodesia, South Africa, Mexico and New Zealand. Wherever they went, the Polish refugees encountered effusive good will, not only on the part of the respective governments that invited them, but also on the part of the native populations. Welcoming signs with Polish flags, white eagles, and words of encouragement often greeted their arrival, high government officials paid them visits, and even commemorative monuments were erected in their honour! Unlike the Soviet Union, these were, after all, ancient civilized cultures.

-from DEPORTATION, "AMNESTY", AND THE POLISH DIASPORA
SOVIET ETHNIC CLEANSING CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE POLES DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR


http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/soviet_deportations/dapd_3.html
 
ViolentPanda said:
No, most people on these threads paint some Zionists as fanatical warmongering criminals, but we tend to bear in mind {because we know what we're talking about) that not all Zionists are like that..

This may be a point where you and your virtual anti zionist brethren part company.

You'll note that you're the only one saying it's only some zionists.....:)
 
ViolentPanda said:
How do you trust a people who've spent 60 years stealing your rights, your land, your lives, to be true to any commitment?

What's that saying you North Americans are fond of? "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".

What are you talking about? They're already out. They're working to get back. They can continue doing that to their hearts content, but it's humanitarian to allow them to assimilate into other countries.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
What reward?

I'm saying, do the humanitarian thing. In the same way that the millions of other people displaced at the end of WW2 by theft or racism were allowed to assimilate, let the Palestinians assimilate................and continue working on the right to return.

Assimilation is not the answer.
What you're saying is not dissimilar to Lenin quoting Kautsky in relation to Russian Jews, and your stance is rather crude, as Lenin's was.
 
invisibleplanet said:
Assimilation is not the answer.
What you're saying is not dissimilar to Lenin quoting Kautsky in relation to Russian Jews, and your stance is rather crude, like Lenin's.

It may not be the answer, but it is a humanitarian stopgap measure.

As an aside: assimilation seemed to be a realpolitik answer for many millions of other displaced persons.
 
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