Nazi Concentration Camps

[ViolentPanda]

So then those same arguments by the anti immigrant column in Britain, should hold sway as well?

Entirely spurious. The two issues aren't even remotely analogous.

 

[Spion]

.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How politicized where the palestinians in 1947, 48, 49 etc, when the rest of the world's displaced persons were on the move? Why were the palestinians any more politicised than any of the others?

Because they'd become politicised in the 30 years since the installment of the Mandate authorities (authorities who operated a somewhat biased system of treatment against Palestinian interests) perhaps?
Hey, you're the googleista, google away to your heart's content.

Btw, who were these religious rulers of Arab countries in the 50s and 60s?
Nasser? King Hussein? Hafez Assad? Saddam Hussein? The Shah? Moammar Khadaffi?

Who said they were religious, who said I was talking about the 50s and 60s in isolation? Don't make assumptions, or try to be "clever", Johnny. It doesn't become you.
Every statesman worth his testes uses the tools to hand. In the middle east one of those tools has long been the religious sensibilities of the citizenry.

 

[Spion]

There is nothing but logic in my argument. Millions were displaced at the end of WW2, most often illegally and unfairly. However, they were eventually allowed to assimilate into other countries, because it was the humane thing to do.

Once again, you're talking out of your arse. The UN set up a body, the International Refugee Organization in 1946 to arrange for the care and the repatriation or resettlement of those made homeless by World War II and dealt with more than a million people.

Article 2, 1a, sets out its functions as:

"encouraging and assisting in every way possible the early return to their country of nationality, or former habitual residence, of those persons who are the concern of the Organization"

(from http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/1c...cb2267af7b58533585256cc6005239f5!OpenDocument)

So, why did the IRO not work to repatriate or resettle the Palestinians? For some reason the Palestinians got UNRWA instead, a body set up solely to see to the refugees' daily needs to provide employment and fund permanent camps to house them. A bit fishy that, if you ask me

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

If it was a possibility as a route to peace someone other than some whisky-soaked internet buffoon would have come up with it."

Looks like it has been thought of: in Jordan and Syria.

A community of Palestinians numbering about 400,000 lives in Lebanon,(3) representing not less than 10 percent of the country's population. Moreover, conditions in the camps are grim because Palestinians in Lebanon suffer from discriminatory official policies preventing them from improving their living conditions.


Only a small fraction of Palestinians have acquired Lebanese citizenship, with a mere 3,000 naturalized until the 1980s. Although 60,000 were granted citizenship in 1994,(4) the overwhelming majority of Palestinians remain stateless and are treated as foreigners who have no rights of property ownership, investment, or employment--at most, they have privileges granted by a complex and lengthy permit process. Large institutions are essentially closed to Palestinians because these are governed by rules that make allocations in accordance with sectarian affiliation.(5) Moreover, Palestinians continue to be excluded from more than seventy-two professions. Basic Lebanese labor law says that non-Lebanese must obtain work permits for all regular jobs: construction, sanitation, agriculture. A second law restricts the practice of most professions--medicine, engineering, pharmacy--to Lebanese, forcing Palestinians to take jobs that offer low wages, insecurity, and no benefits.(6)


Travel restrictions on Palestinians were always tight, passports rarely given, and the only documents issued by the government were temporary. Then, on September 22, 1995, the Lebanese government made visas obligatory for Palestinian refugees residing in Lebanon who are holders of Lebanese travel documents. This meant that Palestinians who left the country faced the possibility of being refused a reentry visa to come back. However, that decision was annulled on January 12, 1999, when the government decided to treat Palestinian refugees who are holders of Lebanese travel documents on the same basis as full Lebanese passport holders, facilitating their movement to and from foreign countries.


In the past, high levels of education enabled Palestinians to compete for jobs even though they were disadvantaged as non-nationals. Educational achievement was also a source of collective pride and individual motivation--an interim substitute for a country and a passport. Today, after years of destruction and disruption, Palestinians in Lebanon are facing an educational crisis. While the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) provides Palestinians in Lebanon with primary education, they find it extremely difficult to enter the government secondary schools, which is a prerequisite for access to the university, and they continue to be excluded from public institutions for higher education. The resulting lack of education has jeopardized the economic independence and productivity of Palestinians.(7)


The Lebanese state's reluctance to absorb the refugees means that 150,000 to 200,000 Palestinians live in twelve registered refugee camps intended to accommodate just 50,000 refugees. Restrictions on building and reconstruction in the camps contribute to the insecurity of Palestinians in Lebanon, forcing them to live in buildings partially or totally destroyed during the civil war,(8) in as much as rebuilding has been strictly and legally controlled.


It bears noting that Palestinians living in other Arab countries, such as Jordan and Syria, are not so marginalized. In Jordan, Palestinians constitute approximately 60 percent of the total population and 95 percent of them hold citizenship.(9) They are a powerful force in the nation's economy and can work in any occupation of their choice; indeed, they have served as generals in the army and prime ministers. Palestinians in Syria are integrated into society at all levels and rarely suffer discrimination in employment, ownership, or political activity. Although they are not eligible for citizenship, they do enjoy a full legal equivalency with local nationals in almost all areas, including employment and governmental services.(10) There are, however, some restrictions on Palestinian property ownership and mobility in Syria, as well as tight controls over political activities.(11) To be sure, in other parts of the Arab world (Iraq and Egypt particularly), Palestinians have been subjected to harsh treatment and restrictions, but their numbers in those countries are much smaller than in Lebanon.

http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/papers/haddad2.html

It appears that the treatment of Palestinians isn't uniform across arab countries.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Which WWII refugees were eventually allowed to assimilate into their host countries?

The vast majority of German Silesians fled or were expelled from Silesia during and after World War II. Most ethnic German Silesians today live in the territory of the Federal Republic of Germany, many of them working as miners in the Ruhr area, like their ancestors did in the Silesian mines. In order to smooth their integration into West German society after 1945, they were organized into officially recognized organisations, like the Landsmannschaft Schlesien, financed from the federal German budget

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia#Silesia_in_Germany_and_Austria

Beginning of the Displaced Person (DP) movement. 186,154 displaced persons came to Canada between 1947 and 1952.

http://www.ccrweb.ca/history.html

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Egypt became more progressively secular from Nasser onward, before that it was as Islamic as the British wanted any of their puppet kingdoms to be, i.e. devout but moderate. .

King Farouk doesn't strike me as a particularly devout individual.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

. At the time of the main Palestinian diaspora three of the largest neighbours to Palestine were Britsh (and therefore also US) puppets, another two were French puppets. .

Crap. The british were nobody's puppets in the middle east at that time. Don't forget, the US was against the idea of israel, and didn't become favourably disposed to it until the sixties [for cold war reasons], and didn't begin sending monetary aid till the seventies.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Egypt became more progressively secular from Nasser onward, before that it was as Islamic as the British wanted any of their puppet kingdoms to be, i.e. devout but moderate. At the time of the main Palestinian diaspora three of the largest neighbours to Palestine were Britsh (and therefore also US) puppets, another two were French puppets. The British and the French power-elites didn't want their mostly-compliant clients getting ideas above their station. Those who took power on independence didn't want any external destabilising elements either, they had enough to worry about in keeping power for themselves.
Egypt is secular now in relation to how it was pre-Nasser, as is Jordan, Syria is a dictatorship, Lebanon a whipping boy, and Iraq was a dictatorship and is now a basket-case, so the Palestinians have a choice of (if the authorities could ever be convinced to allow them) assimilating in two countries that have repeatedly shown they don't want them, assimilating under a choice of two different dictatorships, or assimilating into a tiny, extremely unstable nation-state that's been at the mercy of it's neighbours and dependent on foreign goodwill for what seems like forever.

But, as my quote above tells us, Syria and Jordan have allowed assimilation.

So much for your neat theory as to why they didn't.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Actually, I note that many "anti-Zionists" on this board say exactly the same thing as I do.

Perhaps you're too blinded by your "pro-Zionist" blinkers to notice, perhaps you don't want to notice?

How many, apart from you, are saying it's only 'some' zionists?

I must have missed it.

 

[Spion]

the US was against the idea of israel, and didn't become favourably disposed to it until the sixties

The US was the first country to recognise Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-United_States_relations

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The US was the first country to recognise Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-United_States_relations

Israel survived in the late forties thanks to weapons purchased in the Soviet bloc,not from the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_shipments_from_Czechoslovakia_to_Israel_1947-1949

 

[Spion]

Looks like it has been thought of: in Jordan and Syria.




http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/papers/haddad2.html

It appears that the treatment of Palestinians isn't uniform across arab countries.

No shit, sherlock?

 

[Spion]

Israel survived in the late forties thanks to weapons purchased in the Soviet bloc,not from the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_shipments_from_Czechoslovakia_to_Israel_1947-1949

Amongst other places. I'll have some more for you soon on that one

 

[ymu]

Israel survived in the late forties thanks to weapons purchased in the Soviet bloc,not from the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_shipments_from_Czechoslovakia_to_Israel_1947-1949

Israel owe its existence to Truman, who got it into his head that partition would be a good idea and proceeded to bribe and bully a bunch of small states into agreeing.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

No shit, sherlock?

If you knew that, then why have you been explaining so vociferously why the arabs wouldn't allow them to assimilate?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Israel owe its existence to Truman, who got it into his head that partition would be a good idea and proceeded to bribe and bully a bunch of small states into agreeing.

From your article.

Following Roosevelt's verbal promise to Saud to consult the Arabs about Palestine policy, he reiterated the promise in writing on April 5, 1945. However, a week later, Roosevelt was dead, replaced by Vice President Harry S. Truman, and the end of the war created a different political reality as well as bringing the revelation of massive murder of Jews in the Holocaust.

So contrary to what you've been saying, the Holocaust was important in the formation of Israel.

 

[ymu]

From your article.



So contrary to what you've been saying, the Holocaust was important in the formation of Israel.

That doesn't change the fact that the partition plan would never have got past the UN without Truman.

The partition resolution required a 2/3 majority to pass, and it became evident that due to Arab pressure and resistance to the US by third-world countries, it might not pass. On November 25, a Tuesday, UN General Assembly members, acting as an ad hoc committee on Palestine, voted. The partition resolution passed the "committee" vote, twenty-five to thirteen with seventeen abstentions. However, this vote was one one short of the 2/3 majority that would be needed to pass the General Assembly itself.

The vote was postponed from Wednesday, giving the lobbyists Thursday, the Thanksgiving holiday, to change votes. The Arab countries exerted pressure against partition. Pressure from Zionists, US officials and former officials was brought to bear on countries that were intending to vote against partition. Greece was threatened with loss of foreign aid. Apparently on the prompting of former Secretary of State Stettinus, tire manufacturer Harvey Firestone threatened Liberia with a rubber embargo. Paraguay, the Philippines, Haiti and other countries reversed their positions and voted for partition. Though newspapers accused State Department officials of acting against partition, at least some State department officials were directly involved in lobbying for it. Dean Rusk, head of the State Department's UN desk in Washington, later wrote, "when President Truman decided to support partition, I worked hard to implement it....The pressure and arm-twisting applied by American and Jewish representatives in capital after capital to get that affirmative vote are hard to describe." The vote was again postponed to Saturday November 29, one more day, at the request of the Arabs. Greece voted against partition anyway, but other countries changed their vote. The partition resolution was duly passed.

You're so vapidly disingenuous; noone could be this stupid.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

That doesn't change the fact that the partition plan would never have got past the UN without Truman.
.

You're right.

The idea never would have gotten off the ground without the British.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You're so vapidly disingenuous; noone could be this stupid.

Call me all the names you'd like: I'm still right about the humanity of allowing them to assimilate.

 

[ViolentPanda]

King Farouk doesn't strike me as a particularly devout individual.

Does one person constitute a nation?
In fact it was probably a good thing for Farouk that his population were devout and inculcated with that fatalism born of "Insh'allah". It meant that only the religio-political extremists like the Muslim Brotherhood who found his decadence nauseating tried to do anything about it.

 

[nino_savatte]

Does one person constitute a nation?
I.

That prat Danny Wallace thinks so.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Crap. The british were nobody's puppets in the middle east at that time. Don't forget, the US was against the idea of israel, and didn't become favourably disposed to it until the sixties [for cold war reasons], and didn't begin sending monetary aid till the seventies.

Crap?
Do some research.
Britain and the US were in cahoots over the Middle East as soon as the war ended. Try reading something like Robert Dreyfuss' "Devil's Game" for just how deep into the middle east the US (often using the UK as a front because of "respectability" issues, sometimes working in partnership with them) was from 1946 onward.

While it is true that (publicly at least) Eisenhower's administration minimised diplomatic contact with Israel (not least, again, for cold war reasons), the USA was always utterly behind the survival of the state of Israel, and allowed (when legally speaking, they didn't have to and shouldn't have) remittances from charities, foundations, trusts and individuals to continue, knowing full well that a large percentage of the "corporate" remittances would be used for defence spending (you might want to read, although it's a bit old now, Isaac Alteras's "Eisenhower and Israel: US-Israeli Relations, 1953-1960" for an idea of the amount of support the US both allowed and actually supplied to the state of Israel during that period).

 

[ViolentPanda]

But, as my quote above tells us, Syria and Jordan have allowed assimilation.

So much for your neat theory as to why they didn't.

So your quote, showing that 2 out of 6 neighbouring nation-states allowed some form of assimilation renders my "neat theory" invalid?

Please show me how, Johnny, and bear in mind that both the states you mention had VERY instrumental reasons for doing what they did that were antithetical to the reasons why the other nations didn't.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How many, apart from you, are saying it's only 'some' zionists?

I must have missed it.

Seek and ye shall find, grasshopper.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Amongst other places. I'll have some more for you soon on that one

Hey, if you discount the arms merchants and the Sov-bloc, a hell of a lot of materiel was sourced from military surplus dealers in Europe and the US, shipped as "scrap metal" and then (in scenes reminiscent of the biblical miracles ) resurrected as military hardware.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That prat Danny Wallace thinks so.

Does he actually count as a person, rather than as a git?

 

[nino_savatte]

Does he actually count as a person, rather than as a git?

Git.

 

[Spion]

I'm still right about the humanity of allowing them to assimilate.

Yes, they should be allowed rights, but - if we're talking about humanity - they should also be given the option to return or be compensated by the thieves who expelled them at gunpoint in the first place, ie Israel

 

[Spion]

If you knew that, then why have you been explaining so vociferously why the arabs wouldn't allow them to assimilate?

I haven't been. You are confused again