Nazi Concentration Camps

[Spion]

Hey, if you discount the arms merchants and the Sov-bloc, a hell of a lot of materiel was sourced from military surplus dealers in Europe and the US, shipped as "scrap metal" and then (in scenes reminiscent of the biblical miracles ) resurrected as military hardware.

By March 1948 Zionist arms factories in Palestine were making:

100 sub-machine guns per day (200 per day by the end of April)
400,000 rounds of 9mm ammunition per month

as well as:
hundreds of thousands of grenades
3-inch mortar shells
Flame throwers
PIATS anti tank guns
Davidka heavy mortars (a real favourite for terrorising crowded market places, city quarters and villages)

 

[Spion]

I'm still right about the humanity of allowing them to assimilate.

Trouble is, I doubt your humanity. You seem obsessed with trying to argue that the 'relatives' of the victims should make good for the ethnic cleansing carried out by the zionists while letting the criminal off the hook for its crimes. It's a morally bankrupt position to take.

I'd usually consider such a stance bizarre, but as you're so transparently biased (and not very clever with it) it's not so strange really

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Crap?
Do some research.
Britain and the US were in cahoots over the Middle East as soon as the war ended. .

Yes, but the zionist movement, and britain's reaction to it [see:Balfour] began before the end of the war.

I agree: at the end of the war, the US was the big man standing [along with the USSR], and its favour had to be curried, and opinion listened to.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

While it is true that (publicly at least) Eisenhower's administration minimised diplomatic contact with Israel (not least, again, for cold war reasons), the USA was always utterly behind the survival of the state of Israel, and allowed (when legally speaking, they didn't have to and shouldn't have) remittances from charities, foundations, trusts and individuals to continue, knowing full well that a large percentage of the "corporate" remittances would be used for defence spending (you might want to read, although it's a bit old now, Isaac Alteras's "Eisenhower and Israel: US-Israeli Relations, 1953-1960" for an idea of the amount of support the US both allowed and actually supplied to the state of Israel during that period).

It's a free country; why wouldn't the govt 'allow' citizens and groups to donate to Israel?

And it remains a fact that actual cash money from the US govt didn't start to flow until the seventies.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Hey, if you discount the arms merchants and the Sov-bloc,.

But you can't discount them in this.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yes, they should be allowed rights, but - if we're talking about humanity - they should also be given the option to return or be compensated by the thieves who expelled them at gunpoint in the first place, ie Israel

But those zionist criminals [in your words] aren't going to allow that. So other practical measures must be looked at, at least in the interim.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

By March 1948 Zionist arms factories in Palestine were making:

100 sub-machine guns per day (200 per day by the end of April)
400,000 rounds of 9mm ammunition per month

as well as:
hundreds of thousands of grenades
3-inch mortar shells
Flame throwers
PIATS anti tank guns
Davidka heavy mortars (a real favourite for terrorising crowded market places, city quarters and villages)

Good thing, too, or the work the Holocaust started, would have gotten finished in the Middle East.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Trouble is, I doubt your humanity.

That's your right, and your choice.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Trouble is, I doubt your humanity. You seem obsessed with trying to argue that the 'relatives' of the victims should make good for the ethnic cleansing carried out by the zionists while letting the criminal off the hook for its crimes. It's a morally bankrupt position to take.

I never said anybody should be let off. I said that for practical and humanitarian reasons, the Palestinians should be allowed to assimilate, and they can continue their push for return, from a more liveable physical and economic position.

 

[nino_savatte]

Good thing, too, or the work the Holocaust started, would have gotten finished in the Middle East.

I see nothing's changed. Would you mind explaining this?

 

[Spion]

Good thing, too, or the work the Holocaust started, would have gotten finished in the Middle East.

Completely ass-backwards as usual. There was no planned holocaust against the jews in the middle east. There was, however, a zionist plan to ethnically cleanse Palestine of Arabs, namely the Haganah's Plan D of 10 Mar 1948 (see below for an excerpt). Clear operational orders were issued to each of the Haganah brigades. I can paste those up for you too if you like:

"These operations can be carried out in the following manner: either by destroying villages (by setting fire to them, by blowing them up, and by planting mines in their debris) and especially of those populations centres which are difficult to control continuously; or by mounting combing and control operations according to the following guidellines: encirclement of the villages, conducting a search inside them. In case of resistance, the armed forces must be wiped out and the population expelled outside the borders of the state."

Such operational orders were, of course, the culmination of years ariculating what needed to happen in Palestine to create lebensraum for the Jewish state.

“The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as a war.” Ben Gurion, diary, 12 July 1937

“Transfer does not serve only one aim – to reduce the Arab population. It also serves a second purpose by no means less important, which is: to evict land now cultivated by Arabs and to free it for Jewish settlement . . . The only solution is to transfer the Arabs from here to neighbouring countries. Not a single village or single tribe should be let off.” 1940, Yossef Weitz (member of Ben Gurion’s Consultancy, head of settlement dept of JNF and formerly involved in compiling the Village Files), My Diary, vol 2 , p181

I thank you for providing the opportunity to present these facts, Johnny.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Completely ass-backwards as usual. There was no planned holocaust against the jews in the middle east. There was, however, a zionist plan to ethnically cleanse Palestine of Arabs, namely the Haganah's Plan D of 10 Mar 1948 (see below for an excerpt). Clear operational orders were issued to each of the Haganah brigades. I can paste those up for you too if you like:

"These operations can be carried out in the following manner: either by destroying villages (by setting fire to them, by blowing them up, and by planting mines in their debris) and especially of those populations centres which are difficult to control continuously; or by mounting combing and control operations according to the following guidellines: encirclement of the villages, conducting a search inside them. In case of resistance, the armed forces must be wiped out and the population expelled outside the borders of the state."

Such operational orders were, of course, the culmination of years ariculating what needed to happen in Palestine to create lebensraum for the Jewish state.

“The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as a war.” Ben Gurion, diary, 12 July 1937

“Transfer does not serve only one aim – to reduce the Arab population. It also serves a second purpose by no means less important, which is: to evict land now cultivated by Arabs and to free it for Jewish settlement . . . The only solution is to transfer the Arabs from here to neighbouring countries. Not a single village or single tribe should be let off.” 1940, Yossef Weitz (member of Ben Gurion’s Consultancy, head of settlement dept of JNF and formerly involved in compiling the Village Files), My Diary, vol 2 , p181

I thank you for providing the opportunity to present these facts, Johnny.

I guess the anti palestinian holocaust didn't work. There are six million of them.

What do you think would have happened to the jews if the arab armies had been successful in any of the early anti-israeli wars?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes, but the zionist movement, and britain's reaction to it [see:Balfour] began before the end of the war.

Britain's reaction to (or accomodation of, if you will) Zionism began before the first world war, by the offices of Herbert Samuels. There's some interesting historical research being done on his papers at the moment, which may be able to shed some interesting light on some of his actions and decisions as High Commissioner for Palestine.

I agree: at the end of the war, the US was the big man standing [along with the USSR], and its favour had to be curried, and opinion listened to.

I think you're missing the subtleties of the relationship, but essentially, yes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's a free country; why wouldn't the govt 'allow' citizens and groups to donate to Israel?

Because , for some periods during that time, there were embargoes in place which, when in force, were violated by the USA.
As usual, of course, the US saw itself as above adherence to pesky international law if it happened to mean that the party in power might lose a few members of congress.

And it remains a fact that actual cash money from the US govt didn't start to flow until the seventies.

Oh, I entirely agree about the "cash money", but it's hardly as if hard currency is the be all and end all of aid, is it?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Because , for some periods during that time, there were embargoes in place

Frankly, I didn't know that. Who put the embargoes in place, and why?

 

[ViolentPanda]

But you can't discount them in this.

Context, Johnny. Context.

I'm not saying "discount them", I'm saying "even if you set aside the materiel that the Sov-bloc and the independent arms traders, the state of Israel was still able to get around the export restrictions of other states by using middlemen to buy up "obsolete" hardware as scrap metal, and to then export the scrap (along, of course, with genuine scrap) to Israel".

See, context is all.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Context, Johnny. Context.

I'm not saying "discount them", I'm saying "even if you set aside the materiel that the Sov-bloc and the independent arms traders, the state of Israel was still able to get around the export restrictions of other states by using middlemen to buy up "obsolete" hardware as scrap metal, and to then export the scrap (along, of course, with genuine scrap) to Israel".

See, context is all.

I understand what you're saying, but it's my understanding that without the early arms purchases from Czechoslovakia, for example, Israel would have been in a lot of trouble in the first anti-Israeli war.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Frankly, I didn't know that. Who put the embargoes in place, and why?

The UN. I think there were a few attempts in congress too, that fell due to the usual "political considerations".

I'll give you a fuller answer later when I've unearthed and thumbed some books.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Good thing, too, or the work the Holocaust started, would have gotten finished in the Middle East.

And you reach this conclusion how (bearing in mind that you're stating that European Jewry would be extinguished by using the words "...the work the Holocaust started, would have gotten finished in the Middle East")?

Or do you mean something different, but wanted to use as emotive language as possible?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The UN. I think there were a few attempts in congress too, that fell due to the usual "political considerations".

I'll give you a fuller answer later when I've unearthed and thumbed some books.

That's interesting. Why would the UN allow the creation of the Israeli nation, then attempt to prevent them from buying weapons?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

And you reach this conclusion how (bearing in mind that you're stating that European Jewry would be extinguished by using the words "...the work the Holocaust started, would have gotten finished in the Middle East")?

Or do you mean something different, but wanted to use as emotive language as possible?

I mean the jews in israel were refugees for the most part, with nowhere else to flee to. They were surrounded by countries who declared war on Israel at its inception, and who attempted to invade, from more than one direction.

The arabs didn't think the jews should be there. Had the arab armies been victorious, and occupied Jerusalem, Tel Aviv etc, what would have happened?

The jews had nowhere to go, and the occupying armies would want them out.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What do you think would have happened to the jews if the arab armies had been successful in any of the early anti-israeli wars?

What do you think would have happened?

I mean, it appears that you believe that some nazi-like "final solution" would have been put into operation, hence your earlier comment, but what do you base this on, contemporaneous media coverage, histories of the period and place, policy, what?

 

[Spion]

What do you think would have happened to the jews if the arab armies had been successful in any of the early anti-israeli wars?

You've got your dates all wrong, which is of a piece with the way mainstream zionist history dishonestly tries to portray themselves as victims rather than perpetrators. Fact is, by the time the Arab armies entered Palestine at the beginnning of May 1948 the zionists had (since Dec '47) ethnically cleansed about 200 Arab villages and a number of urban areas, including Haifa (which fell on 21/21 April). The Arab armies went in to protect Arabs who were being murdered, raped and expelled by force.

"Kill any Arab you encounter; torch all inflammable objects and force doors open with explosives." Mordechai Maklef, operations officer of the Carmeli Brigade, which took Haifa, to his troops. (Haganah archives 69/72 22 Apr 1948)

Of the Arab armies, 2 of the 5 did not go beyond the zone the UN allotted to the Arab state, Jordan did a deal with Ben Gurion and largely stayed out of the fighting while Iraq and Egypt were the only ones to enter the UN-allotted Jewish zone. By contrast, the Haganah's Plan D outlines in detail operations to conquer the whole of Palestine. Should I paste that up for you?

You don't actually have much of a clue about the history do you?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Arab armies entered Palestine at the beginnning of May 1948. By this time the zionists had since Dec '47 ethnically cleansed about 200 Arab villages and a number of urban areas, including Haifa (which fell on 21/21 April). The Arab armies went in to protect Arabs who were being murdered, raped and expelled by force.

"Kill any Arab you encounter; torch all inflammable objects and force doors open with explosives." Mordechai Maklef, operations officer of the Carmeli Brigade, which took Haifa, to his troops. (Haganah archives 69/72 22 Apr 1948)

Of the Arab armies, 2 of the 5 did not go beyond the zone the UN allotted to the Arab state, Jordan did a deal with Ben Gurion and largely stayed out of the fighting while Iraq and Egypt were the only ones to enter the UN-allotted Jewish zone. By contrast, the Haganah's Plan D outlines in detail operations to conquer the whole of Palestine.

You don't actually have much of a clue about the history do you?

I have enough of a clue to know that you are presenting one, highly emotive side of the situation. The arab armies declared war on Israel to stop the raping of arab women by jews, did they? It's too early in the morning for research; I'll take this up with you later.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The chairman of the Arab Higher Committee said the Arabs would "fight for every inch of their country."1 Two days later, the holy men of Al-Azhar University in Cairo called on the Muslim world to proclaim a jihad (holy war) against the Jews.2 Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee's spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench "the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood . . . ."3

Husseini's prediction began to come true almost immediately after the UN announced partition resolution on November 29, 1947. The Arabs declared a protest strike and instigated riots that claimed the lives of 62 Jews and 32 Arabs. Violence continued to escalate through the end of the year.4

The first large-scale assaults began on January 9, 1948, when approximately 1,000 Arabs attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine. By February, the British said so many Arabs had infiltrated they lacked the forces to run them back.5 In fact, the British turned over bases and arms to Arab irregulars and the Arab Legion.

In the first phase of the war, lasting from November 29, 1947 until April 1, 1948, the Palestinian Arabs took the offensive, with help from volunteers from neighboring countries. The Jews suffered severe casualties and passage along most of their major roadways was disrupted.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf4.html

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

On May 4, 1948, the Arab Legion attacked Kfar Etzion. The defenders drove them back, but the Legion returned a week later. After two days, the ill-equipped and outnumbered settlers were overwhelmed. Many defenders were massacred after they had surrendered.7 This was prior to the invasion by the regular Arab armies that followed Israel's declaration of independence.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf4.html

 

[Spion]

I have enough of a clue to know that you are presenting one, highly emotive side of the situation. The arab armies declared war on Israel to stop the raping of arab women by jews, did they? It's too early in the morning for research; I'll take this up with you later.

Yes, you do that. And make sure you find out when those Arab armies entered, where they went and what the Zionists had been doing since December 47

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The UN blamed the Arabs for the violence. The UN Palestine Commission was never permitted by the Arabs or British to go to Palestine to implement the resolution. On February 16, 1948, the Commission reported to the Security Council:

Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein.8

The Arabs were blunt in taking responsibility for starting the war. Jamal Husseini told the Security Council on April 16, 1948:

The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight.9

The British commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, John Bagot Glubb admitted:

Early in January, the first detachments of the Arab Liberation Army began to infiltrate into Palestine from Syria. Some came through Jordan and even through Amman . . . They were in reality to strike the first blow in the ruin of the Arabs of Palestine.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf4.html

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The partition resolution was never suspended or rescinded. Thus, Israel, the Jewish State in Palestine, was born on May 14, as the British finally left the country. Five Arab armies (Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq) immediately invaded Israel. Their intentions were declared by Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League: "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."11

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf4.html

 

[Spion]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf4.html

You'll need to do better than c+p obviously partisan sources that have a complete lack of primary evidence.