Nazi Concentration Camps

[Johnny Canuck3]

The bottom of the right hand column, page 457

http://books.google.com/books?id=oN...ts=-C8nEWnl4Q&sig=u7d3C62lMBW9rlOfTKpbUPysxBs

 

[ViolentPanda]

Btw, the fact that Azzam Pasha said that is recorded elsewhere.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_Hassan_Azzam

I'm not questioning the fact that he said it, I'm questioning how you concluded, seemingly from this single utterance alone, that a continuation of the holocaust would take place in the middle east. If you have other, less tenuous, support for your thesis please share it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I'm not questioning the fact that he said it, I'm questioning how you concluded, seemingly from this single utterance alone, that a continuation of the holocaust would take place in the middle east.

Perhaps they didn't intend to set up new concentration camps and gas chambers, but the words quoted above talk of extermination. I think the definition of that word is relatively unambiguous.

p.s. You say 'single utterance'. Are you ignoring the other quotations above?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't know; what do 'extermination' and 'momentous massacre' imply to you?

A politician's rhetoric.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

A politician's rhetoric.

How about the rhetoric of a dozen politicians?

And if you were a jew in Israel in 1948, having recently escaped Europe, would you take comfort in the likelihood that all these words were merely 'a politician's rhetoric'.?

Search on google or wherever for the words of Hitler spoken at the Kroll Theatre in Berlin in 1939, concerning the jews. I'm sure many said that those words were a politician's rhetoric, as well.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Remember I asked this question:



It looks like we have our answer.

No, it looks like you've found a few quotes by members of the ruling classes of various Arab countries that might, in the context you've posted them, lend some support to your thesis. We don't "have our answer" at all.

 

[nino_savatte]

Fucks sake, this is desperate stuff.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Another "what if"? What if the pilgrim fathers had gone the wrong way and ended up somewhere else?

Canada, perhaps?

 

[nino_savatte]

Canada, perhaps?

Or maybe even Greenland?

 

[nino_savatte]

We have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but we have come to conquer a country from people inhabiting it, that governs it by the virtue of its language and savage culture ..... Recently there has been appearing in our newspapers the clarification about "the mutual misunderstanding" between us and the Arabs, about "common interests" [and] about "the possibility of unity and peace between two fraternal peoples." ..... [But] we must not allow ourselves to be deluded by such illusive hopes ..... for if we ceases to look upon our land, the Land of Israel, as ours alone and we allow a partner into our estate- all content and meaning will be lost to our enterprise.
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story694.html#David Ben-Gurion

This is from Moshe Sharret, who was mild by comparison with some of the others.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Perhaps they didn't intend to set up new concentration camps and gas chambers, but the words quoted above talk of extermination. I think the definition of that word is relatively unambiguous.

Context again, isn't it?
That and your equating "holocaust" and "extermination", which also, in the final analysis, reduces to context.

p.s. You say 'single utterance'. Are you ignoring the other quotations above?

You hadn't yet posted your bonanza of political posturing when I started replying to your post.
You know, I thought you'd not be naive enough to take the words and speeches of politicians as read. Perhaps I was wrong.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How about the rhetoric of a dozen politicians?

And if you were a jew in Israel in 1948, having recently escaped Europe, would you take comfort in the likelihood that all these words were merely 'a politician's rhetoric'.?

No, I'd defend myself.
I'd also, if I made any pretence to being a decent person, take into account the position, rhetoric and actions of those who made claim to represent me.

Search on google or wherever for the words of Hitler spoken at the Kroll Theatre in Berlin in 1939, concerning the jews. I'm sure many said that those words were a politician's rhetoric, as well.

Don't be disingenuous, you're unable to pull it off.
By 1939 any Jew who even pretended to be a rational, thinking human being knew that Hitler's rhetoric was a condensation of his two books, and an explication of what he'd already spoken about previously.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Get your own shit together. I never said any such thing as what you've written above.

Explain to me, if you will, why it was that in Haifa, Jews and Arabs had been working together, drawing a wage together (for example, at the Palestinian Oil Refinery), and explain to me why there had been no trouble between the Jewish, Christian and Muslim neighbourhoods in Haifa in all the many years that Jews had been seeking refuge in Palestine prior to the commencement of Zionist terror attacks at the end of December 1947.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Fucks sake, this is desperate stuff.

I think he's making it up as he goes along. I don't understand why he's trying to twist the reality so much. Doesn't he want there to be peace between Israelis and Palestinians?

He'll be telling us next that Palestinians in Hebron didn't shield the majority of their Jewish neighbours from the murderous riots of 1929, and remember only the murdered (67 who've never rested in peace) and forget those who were protected and saved (435 Jews saved across 28 Palestinian homes).
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel/hebron6-03.htm

 

[Spion]

Remember I asked this question: The arabs didn't think the jews should be there. Had the arab armies been victorious, and occupied Jerusalem, Tel Aviv etc, what would have happened? It looks like we have our answer.

The trouble is, all of your examples are politicians' rhetoric, years after the Zionists actually carried out ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians.

Firstly, it should be no surprise that threats against a thief play well with its victims.

But, the second and crucial point is that it is possible to link the Zionist desire to ethnically cleanse Palestine of Arabs with specific orders for its armed forces to do so.


The desire for expulsion of the Arabs in the words of its architects

“The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as a war.” Ben Gurion, diary, 12 July 1937

“Transfer does not serve only one aim – to reduce the Arab population. It also serves a second purpose by no means less important, which is: to evict land now cultivated by Arabs and to free it for Jewish settlement . . . The only solution is to transfer the Arabs from here to neighbouring countries. Not a single village or single tribe should be let off.” 1940, Yossef Weitz (member of Ben Gurion’s Consultancy, head of settlement dept of JNF and formerly involved in compiling the Village Files), My Diary, vol 2 , p181


The operational orders for the Haganah to carry it out - Plan D of 10 Mar 1948 (an excerpt).

"These operations can be carried out in the following manner: either by destroying villages (by setting fire to them, by blowing them up, and by planting mines in their debris) and especially of those populations centres which are difficult to control continuously; or by mounting combing and control operations according to the following guidellines: encirclement of the villages, conducting a search inside them. In case of resistance, the armed forces must be wiped out and the population expelled outside the borders of the state."

 

[tangentlama]

Good idea. Lets compare pictures of the Holocaust, and the Naqba.
[pictures removed]

Bo'na, lech mi'po, Johnny Canuck2.

Everyone else - Please see Remembering the Nakba - I hope you all can continue discussing the Nakba there.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Thing is, not many care. Most are tired of hearing about and it just does not get through to them. It happened only 62 years ago, within a single life span and yet people only faintly care to hear about it. This shows how it could have happaned and why it will certainly happen yet again.

Sorry but this thread really disturbs me, my family were refugees from Nazi persecution. My Aunt Kath remembered her grandmother being shot for being Jewish, Aunt Martha remembered being terrified during Kristal Nacht and managing to escape to the UK. Herman remembered the trains going to the camps. They are all dead now, but the horrors they witnessed and escaped from were impossible to forget.

Threads like this sometimes seem to forget that there are some who still remember and continue to live with these nightmares.

I am sure, this being U75, that there is no explicit intention to glorify these horrors.

While I similar links to the past, I firmly believe we must remember, however painful that is to do, so that the suffering can't be ignored, can't be (mis)appropriated by ideologues, can't be used as an excuse for further repression. If we don't remember, then both the nationalist Zionists and the Fascists win, because they'll have been allowed to appropriate our history for their own use.

Memorialisation is not glorification.

These are among the best quotes on the WWII Holocaust from this thread.
Reading through this thread, I note that ViolentPanda, Rachamim, Dessiato, Myself and my son, Spion, and a quite a few others who've contributed would have been liquidated in the Nazi Holocaust.

Sometimes I think it's too easy for those who would have been safe to forget this topic.
Keep saying Never forget. Never again.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You know, I thought you'd not be naive enough to take the words and speeches of politicians as read. Perhaps I was wrong.

It was politicians who declared war, and commanded the Arab armies to attack Israel.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

By 1939 any Jew who even pretended to be a rational, thinking human being knew that Hitler's rhetoric was a condensation of his two books, and an explication of what he'd already spoken about previously.

You mean that politicians sometimes actually follow through on their rhetoric?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Context again, isn't it?
That and your equating "holocaust" and "extermination", which also, in the final analysis, reduces to context..

It's all well and good to call the words of many arab politicians over many years, 'rhetoric', but it's really the only gauge we have to go by with respect to arab intentions, had they been successful in any of their numerous wars against Israel.

The only reason that you can safely call their comments 'rhetoric', is that fortunately, they got their asses kicked each and every time.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Explain to me, if you will, why it was that in Haifa, Jews and Arabs had been working together, drawing a wage together (for example, at the Palestinian Oil Refinery), and explain to me why there had been no trouble between the Jewish, Christian and Muslim neighbourhoods in Haifa in all the many years that Jews had been seeking refuge in Palestine prior to the commencement of Zionist terror attacks at the end of December 1947.

You misquoted me; your post above is not responsive to our last couple of posts back and forth.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Explain to me, if you will, why it was that in Haifa, Jews and Arabs had been working together, drawing a wage together (for example, at the Palestinian Oil Refinery), and explain to me why there had been no trouble between the Jewish, Christian and Muslim neighbourhoods in Haifa in all the many years that Jews had been seeking refuge in Palestine prior to the commencement of Zionist terror attacks at the end of December 1947.

Jews lived and worked in Germany. They had stores, etc, and seemed to be doing fine, until Krystallnacht.

What a difference a day makes.

It's obviously disturbing to think that you can be living peacefully one day, then be murdered by your neighbors, the next. I think that's what Israel is all about. They'd been murdered by 'the neighbors' too many times. So in Israel, they'd have some say about who 'the neighbors' would be.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I think he's making it up as he goes along. I don't understand why he's trying to twist the reality so much.

My posts consist of nothing but quotes. If you see that as a 'twisting of reality', then your head is so far in the sand that you're in danger of suffocation.

You should learn not to be so frightened of the truth.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

He'll be telling us next that Palestinians in Hebron didn't shield the majority of their Jewish neighbours from the murderous riots of 1929, [/url]

Who exactly was it trying to murder them. Who killed the 67? I have no doubt that some of the neighbors tried to shield the jews, but they failed with respect to the 67 dead.

As you've said so many times, not all Germans were Nazis, but the ones that were, did a good job of depopulating Europe of jews.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The trouble is, all of your examples are politicians' rhetoric, years after the Zionists actually carried out ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians. "

VP already said the same thing, without the bolding.

'Years after'? Go back and check the dates. Maybe you don't read this stuff too closely, because it will upset your intellectual applecart too much.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The trouble is, all of your examples are politicians' rhetoric, years after the Zionists actually carried out ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians.
."

'Ethnic cleansing', as in the palestinians becoming refugees? Based on what the arab leaders of the time said, they had a different 'ethnic cleansing' in mind.

Btw, did any of the palestinians flee as a result of panic whipped up by their own leaders?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

These are among the best quotes on the WWII Holocaust from this thread.
Reading through this thread, I note that ViolentPanda, Rachamim, Dessiato, Myself and my son, Spion, and a quite a few others who've contributed would have been liquidated in the Nazi Holocaust.

Sometimes I think it's too easy for those who would have been safe to forget this topic.
Keep saying Never forget. Never again.

I don't think I would have fared too well under the nazis either, what with my being another species of subhuman.

 

[Detroit City]

Jews lived and worked in Germany. They had stores, etc, and seemed to be doing fine, until Krystallnacht.

well it think one of the main reasons that Krystal-Nacht occurred is cause the Jews were doing a bit too well, financially, i mean...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

well it think one of the main reasons that Krystal-Nacht occurred is cause the Jews were doing a bit too well, financially, i mean...

Is that so?



[Hey, invisible planet............]

 

[Detroit City]

Is that so?

yes, that is my understanding, at least from what i've read. many Germans became resentful that teh Jews were doing better than them and thats one of the reasons Mr. Hitler came to power.