Nazi Concentration Camps
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invisibleplanet
porter des cornes
But surely this isn't YOUR definition of neighbour?Johnny Canuck2 said:
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
frogwoman said:I am vigilant. But i just dont experience anti-semitism any more, i used to a bit when i was younger, nowadays i just dont see it ... and i don't even know anyone who's very virulently anti-israel except on the internet to be honest. Most people dont care, they have other things in their lives
i am very very aware that it exists though and a lot of my firends have had anti-semitic shit targetted at them
why do you think im a supporter of semi-militant anti-fascism ...
As it turns out, vandals used spray paint to write 'gas the jews', etc, last night, in a north vancouver park.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
invisibleplanet said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3586543.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2006/09/07/070906_antisemitism_feature.shtml
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/us_antisemitism.htm
http://www.today.ucla.edu/2004/040413voices_anti.html
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3388090,00.html
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...ti-semitism_rising_cdn_030306?s_name=&no_ads=
So, what's yer point?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Johnny Canuck2 said:
North vancouver, not here.
if that happened here it would be all over the news.
Im very aware that it goes on and that there's anti-semitism in schools, workplaces etc that doesn't get reported. I've experienced it. Members of my family have expreienced it.
If you think I dont care and im not doing anything, let me tell you that Ive worked as a volunteer for WJR and I spent years trying to get people to pay attention to a lot of the shit that's happening in Eastern Europe. Im the last person who doesnt care about anti-semitism, because, i do. But theres a difference between that and seeing it behind every corner.
People writing that sort of thing are just stupid and they dont really know anything, a lot of the time they're just disturbed kids trying to be controversial.
And IP mate, i think i can be trusted to work out whether something i saw on a demo was anti-semitic more than an academic writing an essay, because i was there.
I wouldn't be saying it if I hadn't seen it.
Spion
I hear ya
Nice guy! In response to a post from a UK poster saying that "on the whole, the new scapegoat is the Arab/Muslim" you put up a bunch of links to gainsay that. Why did you do that Johnny? Once again it makes it look like you don't give a shit if people suffer if they're the 'wrong' group in your eyes.Johnny Canuck2 said:
Believe me, the racist talk you hear at the bus stop and in the pub has nothing to do with jews, the UK far right and influential sections of the media is firmly fixed on Muslims
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Spion said:
In terms of anti-Semitism, Arabs and Muslims have become the new scapegoats in the West. There has been a simmering anti-Arabism (which is really anti-Semitism) that's been bubbling away since the 70's and the energy crisis.
Spion
I hear ya
I've checked. 1954, 59, 66, 67, 67, 73 and 77 are all after the naqba by a long way. And as I say, rhetoric threatening a thief always plays well with the victims.Johnny Canuck2 said:
The nearest one is May 48, so was a speech made as Arab troops went in (mostly to areas allotted to the Arabs by the UN) after 200 Palestinian villages has been cleansed in the first few months of that year. Remember, the Deir Yassin massacre had already taken place, as had the expulsion of 50,000 Arabs from Haifa, which was carried out by such pleasant means as mortaring marketplaces.
Upset my applecart? I don't think so. But I am wondering what you make of the evidence I've provided of the Zionist intent to cleanse Palestine of Arabs and the military orders to do so. Why don't you comment on them Johnny? Is your intellectual handcart creaking a bit?
Anyway, here it is again. I await your comments . . .
The desire for expulsion of the Arabs in the words of its architects
“The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as a war.” Ben Gurion, diary, 12 July 1937
“Transfer does not serve only one aim – to reduce the Arab population. It also serves a second purpose by no means less important, which is: to evict land now cultivated by Arabs and to free it for Jewish settlement . . . The only solution is to transfer the Arabs from here to neighbouring countries. Not a single village or single tribe should be let off.” 1940, Yossef Weitz (member of Ben Gurion’s Consultancy, head of settlement dept of JNF and formerly involved in compiling the Village Files), My Diary, vol 2 , p181
The operational orders for the Haganah to carry it out - Plan D of 10 Mar 1948 (an excerpt).
"These operations can be carried out in the following manner: either by destroying villages (by setting fire to them, by blowing them up, and by planting mines in their debris) and especially of those populations centres which are difficult to control continuously; or by mounting combing and control operations according to the following guidellines: encirclement of the villages, conducting a search inside them. In case of resistance, the armed forces must be wiped out and the population expelled outside the borders of the state."
Spion
I hear ya
Johnny, you just can't get around the fact that by the time the Arab armies entered (NB: 3 of the 5 into UN Arab-allotted areas), zionist ethnic cleansing had been happening for months . . .
18 December 1947 – Palmach attack on village of Khisas in N Galilee, commanded by Yigal Allon. Houses blown up in night attack, 15 Arabs killed
31 December 1947 - Haganah attack on Balad ash-Shaykh. Local Haganah commander ordered to, “encircle the village, kill the largest possible number of men, damage property.” 60 Palestinians killed. (Quote from Milstein, The history of the Independence War, Vol 2 p78)
31 December 1947 – Haganah attacked Haifa district of Wadi Rushmiyya and expelled Arab inhabitants
January 1948 - Haganah attacked Haifa district of Hawassa and expelled Arab inhabitants
15 February 1948 - Village of Qisarya (near Caesarea) attacked by Haganah. Population of 1,500. No village defence. All population expelled. (Orders in Ha Shomer Ha Tzair archives files 66/10, meeting with Galili 5 Feb 1948.)
15 February 1948 – four more villages cleansed that day, including Barrat Qisarya (1,000 expelled) and Khirbay al-Burj (Zvi Sinai and Gershon Rivlin, The Alexandroni Brigade in the War of Independence, p220)
14/15 February – Palmach attack on Sasa at midnight, no resistance. “We left behind 35 demolished houses and 60-80 dead bodies.” (Moshe Kalman, cmdr of Palmach 3rd Battallion (also responsible for Khisas) in The Yiftach-Palmach story, Israel Even Nur (ed.))
9 April 1948 – IZL and Stern Gang troops attack Deir Yassin 90-170 people killed. Nearby villages of Qalunya, Saris, Beit Surik and Biddu attacked by Haganah.
18 April 1948 – Tiberias falls to Haganah after period of heavy bombardment from surrounding hills. Only 30 Arab Liberation Army volunteers in the town. British provide transport to expelled Arab population of 6,000.
Haifa
December – April – Attacks on Arab areas of Haifa by Haganah including sniping, shelling, rivers of ignited oil and fuel, and rolling barrels of explosives downhill
18 April – British announce they will remove buffer forces from between Arab and Jewish areas in Haifa
2,000 Carmeli Brigade troops face 500 Lebanese volunteers
21 April – British commander – Stockwell – invited four Arab leaders to meet him and informed them he could not protect them and advised the Arab community to leave
21/22 April – Haganah attacked and expelled 50,000 – 60,000 Arabs from Haifa.
"Kill any Arab you encounter; torch all inflammable objects and force doors open with explosives." Mordechai Maklef, operations officer of the Carmeli Brigade, which took the city, to his troops. (Haganah archives 69/72 22 Apr 1948)
Other cities and villages ethnically cleansed
1 May 1948 – Safad falls after bombardment by Palmach troops since mid-April. 1,000 Palmach v 400 ALA volunteers. More than 9,000 Arabs expelled. 100 old people allowed to stay, initially . . . “Abraham Hanuki, from [Kibbutz] Ayelet Hashashar told me that since there were only 100 old people left in Safad they were expelled to Lebanon.” Ben Gurion’s Diary, 2 May 1948
April-May 1948 – Jerusalem area - 8 Palestinian neighbourhoods and 39 villages cleansed
6 May 1948 – Acre occupied after siege by Haganah, including contamination of its water supply with Typhoid (Red Cross archive, Files G59/1/GC, G3/82, 6-19 May 1948)
18 December 1947 – Palmach attack on village of Khisas in N Galilee, commanded by Yigal Allon. Houses blown up in night attack, 15 Arabs killed
31 December 1947 - Haganah attack on Balad ash-Shaykh. Local Haganah commander ordered to, “encircle the village, kill the largest possible number of men, damage property.” 60 Palestinians killed. (Quote from Milstein, The history of the Independence War, Vol 2 p78)
31 December 1947 – Haganah attacked Haifa district of Wadi Rushmiyya and expelled Arab inhabitants
January 1948 - Haganah attacked Haifa district of Hawassa and expelled Arab inhabitants
15 February 1948 - Village of Qisarya (near Caesarea) attacked by Haganah. Population of 1,500. No village defence. All population expelled. (Orders in Ha Shomer Ha Tzair archives files 66/10, meeting with Galili 5 Feb 1948.)
15 February 1948 – four more villages cleansed that day, including Barrat Qisarya (1,000 expelled) and Khirbay al-Burj (Zvi Sinai and Gershon Rivlin, The Alexandroni Brigade in the War of Independence, p220)
14/15 February – Palmach attack on Sasa at midnight, no resistance. “We left behind 35 demolished houses and 60-80 dead bodies.” (Moshe Kalman, cmdr of Palmach 3rd Battallion (also responsible for Khisas) in The Yiftach-Palmach story, Israel Even Nur (ed.))
9 April 1948 – IZL and Stern Gang troops attack Deir Yassin 90-170 people killed. Nearby villages of Qalunya, Saris, Beit Surik and Biddu attacked by Haganah.
18 April 1948 – Tiberias falls to Haganah after period of heavy bombardment from surrounding hills. Only 30 Arab Liberation Army volunteers in the town. British provide transport to expelled Arab population of 6,000.
Haifa
December – April – Attacks on Arab areas of Haifa by Haganah including sniping, shelling, rivers of ignited oil and fuel, and rolling barrels of explosives downhill
18 April – British announce they will remove buffer forces from between Arab and Jewish areas in Haifa
2,000 Carmeli Brigade troops face 500 Lebanese volunteers
21 April – British commander – Stockwell – invited four Arab leaders to meet him and informed them he could not protect them and advised the Arab community to leave
21/22 April – Haganah attacked and expelled 50,000 – 60,000 Arabs from Haifa.
"Kill any Arab you encounter; torch all inflammable objects and force doors open with explosives." Mordechai Maklef, operations officer of the Carmeli Brigade, which took the city, to his troops. (Haganah archives 69/72 22 Apr 1948)
Other cities and villages ethnically cleansed
1 May 1948 – Safad falls after bombardment by Palmach troops since mid-April. 1,000 Palmach v 400 ALA volunteers. More than 9,000 Arabs expelled. 100 old people allowed to stay, initially . . . “Abraham Hanuki, from [Kibbutz] Ayelet Hashashar told me that since there were only 100 old people left in Safad they were expelled to Lebanon.” Ben Gurion’s Diary, 2 May 1948
April-May 1948 – Jerusalem area - 8 Palestinian neighbourhoods and 39 villages cleansed
6 May 1948 – Acre occupied after siege by Haganah, including contamination of its water supply with Typhoid (Red Cross archive, Files G59/1/GC, G3/82, 6-19 May 1948)
invisibleplanet
porter des cornes
I'm sure I didn't imply you couldn't be trusted to identify anti-semitism at demos, etc.frogwoman said:And IP mate, i think i can be trusted to work out whether something i saw on a demo was anti-semitic more than an academic writing an essay, because i was there.
To clarify, I posted that excerpt from JB's article because it clearly defines the misappropriation of the term to quosh political criticism of Israel as well as highlighting that there can also be criticism of Israel from some quarters that conceal anti-Jewish/antisemitic sentiement - it agrees with the anecdote from you I quoted - it wasn't a counter to your statement, it was complimentary to - a supplement to, and an expansion on what you'd experienced.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Has it ever occurred (actually, it probably hasn't) to you that armies in battle tend to secure their main objectives first rather than trying to find ways to make the speeches of politicians become real. The only exceptions to this have been when military formations have been actively indoctrinated to carry out certain types of atrocity. That can't be said of any of the "Arab" armies until the Iran-Iraq war, and even then "specialist" units tended to be used.Johnny Canuck2 said:
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Johnny Canuck2 said:You mean that politicians sometimes actually follow through on their rhetoric?
Ah, the disingenuousness, the [faux-startlement again.
Hitler spent 15 years creating first the intellectual framework and then the infrastructure of his vision, 15 years indoctrinating his people, slowly but surely, 15 years building up to what he finally did.
Did any of the Arab countries do that? Did any of them have an all-embracing philosophy of Judaeophobia to which they referred?
Or were their politicians making political capital, as politicians are wont to do?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Johnny Canuck2 said:
No, Johnny, that's not the only gauge I have of Arab intentions toward Jewry.
I can also go by the historically tolerant (and yes, I'm aware you can post up many individual instances of anti-Jewish violence, but they don't amount to an institutional policy, however hard you try to spin it) treatment of Jews by the Arab states, which only really became disrupted after the state of Israel had made it's intentions toward the Palestinian Arab peoples plain.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Kristallnacht wasn't, as you seem to suppose, the flick of a switch that brought forth Judaeophobia. By late 1938 the intentions of the Nazis towards the Jews were abundantly clear. We'd already been relieved of our citizenship, our goods and chattels and our money, we were excluded from public and political life.
"What a difference a day makes"? Stick your clichés up your very obviously ill-informed rectum.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Detroit City said:
You really are either spectacularly ignorant, or a spectacularly appalling troll.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Johnny Canuck2 said:
And this has...what
...to do with Kristallnacht?
invisibleplanet
porter des cornes
ViolentPanda said:Kristallnacht wasn't, as you seem to suppose, the flick of a switch that brought forth Judaeophobia. By late 1938 the intentions of the Nazis towards the Jews were abundantly clear. We'd already been relieved of our citizenship, our goods and chattels and our money, we were excluded from public and political life.Johnny Canuck2 said:
"What a difference a day makes"? Stick your clichés up your very obviously ill-informed rectum.
Exactly, and his clichéd attempt to portray the change in attitudes of the German populace as 'overnight', which was not the case - Johnny Canuck2's resply would not fool my 13 year old son, whose already read Spiegelman's Maus - I don't know why he'd think that urban75's readership would be fooled. (Good insult, btw).
What was 'interesting', was how I spent 15 minutes typing out, book in lap, the background to Reichskristallnacht, and Johnny Canuck2's response was to ignore that, and add an anecdote about a smiling Rumanian as he recalled the German murder of fellow Jewish villagers (which made us shudder as though someone were walking over our mass grave, right? I'm sure that was what he hoped to evoke by posting that anecdote).
Johnny Canuck2's historical understanding of the plight of Israeli and Palestinian civilians during the establishment of Israel by the Zionist militias is flawed, as is his understanding of the Palestinian, Jordanian, Syrian, Egyptian (Iraqi, etc) response, which he lumps together as 'Arab'. It's also clear that he plucks from the historical timeline will-I-nil-I and out of context.
It might be an idea to stop replying to his poking on the Israel/Palestine issue in this thread, and transfer the quotes and make the replies in the new thread that tangentlama has made. I think it'd be too difficult for a mod to split this thread (they prefer joining like threads, afaik) but it's clear to me that it serves no-one to continue discussing the Nakba and the various versions of events in a thread about the Nazi Concentration Camps.
ViolentPanda said:And this has...what
It had nothing to do with Reichskristallnacht. It showed us what Johnny Cannuck2's definition of neighbour is, and his spectacular ability to use anecdotes in an attempt to support his argument. Johnny Canuck2's definition of neighbour is anyone who lives in the same village, or anyone who lives in the same town. His definition of neighbour obviously has nothing to do with real geographical definitions of neighbourhood and nor does it mean someone who lives next door (the definition of neighbour).
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I've tried to explain to him about German anti-Semitism before, how it was ever-present but not (on the whole) violent, how it manifested itself in the same sort of exclusionism that the British state practiced against Catholics until they were emancipated, that it was Hitler's infiltration and indoctrination, along with his core support deriving from the rural areas, that magnified what was, basically, an inconvenience into something murderous. Myself, I'd far rather have been a Jew in Germany, right up until the early 1930s, than in any of the countries that became the Soviet Union.invisibleplanet said:
BTW, I hope Maus didn't make your child cry as much as I did when I first read it.
It is an unfortunate fact that historical ignorance (perhaps he doesn't have the same obsession with fact that we seem to be cursed with?
) combined with an inability to step outside of his own prejudices, and his willingness to introduce these things to his take on Israel/Palestine, has drawn this thread along avenues best explored where spurious comparison and attempts at equivalence can't be introduced..It probably hasn't occurred to him that, in terms of DPs, a significant minority of those that emigrated were, at the least, "anti-left", and often hard-right. We all know about "Operation Paperclip", but we often don't acknowledge the political nature of some of the DPs we took in, the sort of politics that would be reflected in smiling when conveying an anecdote.
Not to mention having nothing to do with the social definitions or connotations of "neighbour".
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
ViolentPanda said:And this has...what
Ask him if he's ever heard of the Farhud. Tell him not to Google it.
nino_savatte said:Ask him if he's ever heard of the Farhud. Tell him not to Google it.
Can't you do your own dirty work, nino?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Do you know what the Farhud was, L&L or are you here just to make a cock of yourself - as usual?
nino_savatte said:
Still as patronising as always, nino. Pity there aren't many Jews left in Iraq for me to ask.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
invisibleplanet said:I'm sure I didn't imply you couldn't be trusted to identify anti-semitism at demos, etc.
To clarify, I posted that excerpt from JB's article because it clearly defines the misappropriation of the term to quosh political criticism of Israel as well as highlighting that there can also be criticism of Israel from some quarters that conceal anti-Jewish/antisemitic sentiement - it agrees with the anecdote from you I quoted - it wasn't a counter to your statement, it was complimentary to - a supplement to, and an expansion on what you'd experienced.
OK cool.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Lock&Light said:
Irrelevant. You don't have to ask Iraqi Jews but then you're just being a cunt for the sake of it...quelle surprise.
nino_savatte said:
Stupid Boy.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
nino_savatte said:
Does he actually know why there are so few Jews in Iraq?
I wonder if IP will feel like coming and informing him of a particularly disgusting chapter in the history of the state of Israel?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
ViolentPanda said:
I don't think he does and if he were to make a guess, he'd say that it was "those nasty Ayrabs who chased them out". The fact is, most Iraqis were sympathetic to the Jewish community to the extent that many non-Jews sheltered Jews from the violence that was being meted out to others.
L&L is only here to make a cunt of himself, disrupt the thread and give JC some sort of support (though with his kind of support on offer, I'd rather go it alone).
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