Nazi Concentration Camps

[Johnny Canuck3]

p.s. trying to demonize me by saying I'm crude and like Lenin, doesn't deflect the logic of my argument.

 

[invisibleplanet]

What are you talking about? They're already out. They're working to get back. They can continue doing that to their hearts content, but it's humanitarian to allow them to assimilate into other countries.

The idea that you can simply 're-label' human beings from 'Palestinian' to 'Jordanian' or 'Syrian' or 'Iraqi' (etc) and this will in some way make everything alright for them in the future in this way is completely reactionary, and reeks of chauvinism.

 

[ymu]

Ok. But surely it's the humanitarian thing to let them assimilate into the arab world.

You're just giving more evidence that zionists are apparently racist criminals. I don't think such people will back down soon.

Go on then Johnny. Explain why you think Zionists are racist criminals.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The idea that you can simply 're-label' human beings from 'Palestinian' to 'Jordanian' or 'Syrian' or 'Iraqi' (etc) and this will in some way make everything alright for them in the future in this way is completely reactionary, and reeks of chauvinism.

Does that apply to the immigrants who wish to live in UK as well? Are those who are in favour of allowing in immigrants, reactionary and chauvinistic?


P.s. calling me reactionary and chauvinistic without rebuttal to the argument, is just further demonization.

So far we have 'like Lenin', 'crude', 'reactionary' and 'chauvinistic'.

My argument is apparently getting to you.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Go on then Johnny. Explain why you think Zionists are racist criminals.

I don't; but you do.

[It's important to read something carefully if you want to digest it fully.]

And if you do, how can you expect them to do the right thing by the Palestinians?

 

[invisibleplanet]

It may not be the answer, but it is a humanitarian stopgap measure.

As an aside: assimilation seemed to be a realpolitik answer for many millions of other displaced persons.

An humanitarian answer can be found without forcing assimilation upon the Palestinians, and besides, you completely ignore the fact that they're treated as 'aliens' by the inhabitants of their host countries, not only in terms of treatment by the governments of the host countries, who deem them to be refugees and don't allow them any political, economic, or educational expression, but also at a social and cultural level by the inhabitants, who generally view them as competitors for jobs/services/resources, etc.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

An humanitarian answer can be found without forcing assimilation upon the Palestinians, .

Forcing? Who is forcing?

Just allow it to be an option for those who might want it.

Even that doesn't exist for them.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

but also at a social and cultural level by the inhabitants, who generally view them as competitors for jobs/services/resources, etc.

So then those same arguments by the anti immigrant column in Britain, should hold sway as well?

 

[ymu]

An humanitarian answer can be found without forcing assimilation upon the Palestinians, and besides, you completely ignore the fact that they're treated as 'aliens' by the inhabitants of their host countries, not only in terms of treatment by the governments of the host countries, who deem them to be refugees, but also at a social and cultural level by the inhabitants, who generally view them as competitors for jobs/services/resources, etc.

Not to mention that they just won't pipe down about being Palestinian. Tsk. Can't have them making trouble for those puppet governments busy sucking up to the West and doing deals with Israel on the quiet. Oddly, Syria treats them quite well...

 

[invisibleplanet]

Does that apply to the immigrants who wish to live in UK as well? Are those who are in favour of allowing in immigrants, reactionary and chauvinistic?

They're not economic migrants. They're not immigrants. They're refugees who fled their homes, live in refugee camps in another land, and aren't allowed to return.

P.s. calling me reactionary and chauvinistic without rebuttal to the argument, is just further demonization.

So far we have 'like Lenin', 'crude', 'reactionary' and 'chauvinistic'.

My argument is apparently getting to you.

No, you really are presenting a crude, reactionary, chauvinistic argument. Assimilation is not the answer. Assimilation wasn't the answer to anti-Jewish human rights issues, and it isn't the answer to anti-Palestinian human rights issues.

 

[ymu]

I don't; but you do.

[It's important to read something carefully if you want to digest it fully.]

And if you do, how can you expect them to do the right thing by the Palestinians?

Well, there's your problem Johnny. You can't argue that the Arab nations should be forced to assimilate the refugees solely on the grounds that Zionists are racist criminals unless you actually believe that Zionists are racist criminals.

You also can't put words into my mouth. I don't think Zionists are all racist criminals and I've never said any such thing. I think all Zionationalists are racist deluded criminals, but then most dominant nationalist ideologies are racist and criminal, as well as deluded; National Socialism springs to mind.

They'll be defeated. It's just a matter of time.

 

[invisibleplanet]

So then those same arguments by the anti immigrant column in Britain, should hold sway as well?

They're not immigrants. They're refugees.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

They're not immigrants. They're refugees.

Aren't some of your immigrants, refugees?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Well, there's your problem Johnny. You can't argue that the Arab nations should be forced to assimilate the refugees solely on the grounds that Zionists are racist criminals unless you actually believe that Zionists are racist criminals.

You also can't put words into my mouth. I don't think Zionists are all racist criminals and I've never said any such thing. I think all Zionationalists are racist deluded criminals, but then most dominant nationalist ideologies are racist and criminal, as well as deluded; National Socialism springs to mind.

They'll be defeated. It's just a matter of time.

.............................

 

[invisibleplanet]

Aren't some of your immigrants, refugees?

Refugee: an exile who flees for safety
Immigrant: a foreign national who intends to establish permanent residency

 

[invisibleplanet]

p.s. trying to demonize me by saying I'm crude and like Lenin, doesn't deflect the logic of my argument.

Lenin was crude when he misquoted Kautsky (which he often did). [See "Repeating Lenin", by Slavoj Zizek as an example.]

There is no 'logic' in your argument. Next, you'll be trying to convince us that Iraqi refugees should be allowed to stay in their host countries and forgo returning to their homes once conflict has ended.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Why, though, should the secularised Palestinians, who had little in common with their more religious neighbours, have had to have altered their culture so drastically? That itself would have made their fate vastly different from the displaced persons. Add to that the fact that the secularised and politicised Palestinians were seen as a threat to internal stability by the rulers of Iraq, Egypt and Jordan, and we can see that even had they wished to be assimilated, it would have been nigh on impossible.

I'm quoting this again, because it's just such a good post.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Add to that the fact that the secularised and politicised Palestinians were seen as a threat to internal stability by the rulers of Iraq, Egypt and Jordan, and we can see that even had they wished to be assimilated, it would have been nigh on impossible.

How politicized where the palestinians in 1947, 48, 49 etc, when the rest of the world's displaced persons were on the move? Why were the palestinians any more politicised than any of the others?

Btw, who were these religious rulers of Arab countries in the 50s and 60s?

Nasser? King Hussein? Hafez Assad? Saddam Hussein? The Shah? Moammar Khadaffi?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Refugee: an exile who flees for safety
Immigrant: a foreign national who intends to establish permanent residency

No refugees in Britain, then?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

There is no 'logic' in your argument. Next, you'll be trying to convince us that Iraqi refugees should be allowed to stay in their host countries and forgo returning to their homes once conflict has ended.

Which ones: the ones who fled Saddam Hussein?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

There is no 'logic' in your argument. Next, you'll be trying to convince us that Iraqi refugees should be allowed to stay in their host countries and forgo returning to their homes once conflict has ended.

There is nothing but logic in my argument. Millions were displaced at the end of WW2, most often illegally and unfairly. However, they were eventually allowed to assimilate into other countries, because it was the humane thing to do.

 

[Spion]

There is nothing but logic in my argument. Millions were displaced at the end of WW2, most often illegally and unfairly. However, they were eventually allowed to assimilate into other countries, because it was the humane thing to do.

If you believe that then you should campaign for Israel to negotiate with the Arab states and for it to fund the necessary infrastruture, housing, grants for business creation etc. But you won't because no-one else is, it being a fantasy in Johnny's mind for the purposes of a bit of wanking about on the internet.

Meanwhile, in the real world what Palestinians want is return or compensation, as in UN resolution 194: "Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible."

 

[Spion]

However, they were eventually allowed to assimilate into other countries, because it was the humane thing to do.

If it was a possibility as a route to peace someone other than some whisky-soaked internet buffoon would have come up with it. In the real world they are refugees comprising the bulk of a country's population with just about every major piece of international law on their side. The world cannot be seen to reward ethnic cleansing any more.

Definition:

"[E]thnic cleansing is a well-defined policy of a particular group of persons to systematically eliminate another group from a given territory on the basis of religious, ethnic or national origin. Such a policy involves violence and is very often connected with military operations. It is to be achieved by all possible means, from discrimination to extermination, and entails violations of human rights and international humanitarian law... Most ethnic cleansing methods are grave breaches of the 1949 Geneva Conventions and 1977 Additional Protocols."

(Drazen Petrovic, "Ethnic Cleansing - An Attempt at Methodology", European Journal of International Law, 5/3 (1994) pp342-60.)

UN opposition:

"The United Nations General Assembly strongly rejects policies and ideologies aimed at promoting ethnic cleansing in any form."

(Resolution 47/80 16 December 1992)

Excerpt from the Haganah's Plan Dalet, issued 10 Mar 1948 - the Zionist blueprint for ethnic cleansing:

"These operations can be carried out in the following manner: either by destroying villages (by setting fire to them, by blowing them up, and by planting mines in their debris) and especially of those populations centres which are difficult to control continuously; or by mounting combing and control operations according to the following guidellines: encirclement of the villages, conducting a search inside them. In case of resistance, the armed forces must be wiped out and the population expelled outside the borders of the state."

 

[invisibleplanet]

There is nothing but logic in my argument.

False logic = illogical.

Millions were displaced at the end of WW2, most often illegally and unfairly.

Which brings us neatly back around to the plight of pre and post-Holocaust European and Russian Jewry.

However, they were eventually allowed to assimilate into other countries, because it was the humane thing to do.

Which WWII refugees were eventually allowed to assimilate into their host countries?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Egypt isn't relatively secular?

Egypt became more progressively secular from Nasser onward, before that it was as Islamic as the British wanted any of their puppet kingdoms to be, i.e. devout but moderate. At the time of the main Palestinian diaspora three of the largest neighbours to Palestine were Britsh (and therefore also US) puppets, another two were French puppets. The British and the French power-elites didn't want their mostly-compliant clients getting ideas above their station. Those who took power on independence didn't want any external destabilising elements either, they had enough to worry about in keeping power for themselves.
Egypt is secular now in relation to how it was pre-Nasser, as is Jordan, Syria is a dictatorship, Lebanon a whipping boy, and Iraq was a dictatorship and is now a basket-case, so the Palestinians have a choice of (if the authorities could ever be convinced to allow them) assimilating in two countries that have repeatedly shown they don't want them, assimilating under a choice of two different dictatorships, or assimilating into a tiny, extremely unstable nation-state that's been at the mercy of it's neighbours and dependent on foreign goodwill for what seems like forever.

 

[ViolentPanda]

-from DEPORTATION, "AMNESTY", AND THE POLISH DIASPORA
SOVIET ETHNIC CLEANSING CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE POLES DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR


http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/soviet_deportations/dapd_3.html

Wow, an example showing that a fraction of displaced persons were treated well. Bully for you!

Not really germane in any real sense of the word though, is it?

 

[ViolentPanda]

This may be a point where you and your virtual anti zionist brethren part company.

You'll note that you're the only one saying it's only some zionists.....

Actually, I note that many "anti-Zionists" on this board say exactly the same thing as I do.

Perhaps you're too blinded by your "pro-Zionist" blinkers to notice, perhaps you don't want to notice?

 

[ViolentPanda]

What are you talking about? They're already out. They're working to get back. They can continue doing that to their hearts content, but it's humanitarian to allow them to assimilate into other countries.

Way to miss the point.

 

[ViolentPanda]

p.s. trying to demonize me by saying I'm crude and like Lenin, doesn't deflect the logic of my argument.

Given the underlying geo-political realities, there is no "logic" in your argument.

 

[ViolentPanda]

An humanitarian answer can be found without forcing assimilation upon the Palestinians, and besides, you completely ignore the fact that they're treated as 'aliens' by the inhabitants of their host countries, not only in terms of treatment by the governments of the host countries, who deem them to be refugees and don't allow them any political, economic, or educational expression, but also at a social and cultural level by the inhabitants, who generally view them as competitors for jobs/services/resources, etc.

Ah, those tricky underlying geo-political realities.

They're a bugger, aren't they?