Nazi Concentration Camps

[KeyboardJockey]

Is that what you'd call the Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and many other nationalities who kicked out the ethnic Germans after WWII. Why aren't you starting some threads up about them? Hypocrite.

Spot on (this is not to have a go at Spion but rather there is another poster who by his / attitude and obsessiveness is part of the problem of the middle east tragedy rather than the solution.)

 

[ViolentPanda]

They are one example. Also, the sudeten germans were ethnic germans, living in an area that became czechoslovakia.

Just to make clear, the Sudetenland was a Czech region with a large "ethnic German" minority (about 40%). It was annexed and German settlers were moved in, Slav Czechs were moved out.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Is that what you'd call the Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and many other nationalities who kicked out the ethnic Germans after WWII. Why aren't you starting some threads up about them? Hypocrite.

I think the argument is far more complex, and has to include acknowledgements of the engagement of some ethnic Germans with Nazi policy (some of the most revolting of Nazisms' killers and thieves were "ethnic Germans" rather than reichsdeutsche), the fact that annexed territories to the east were subject to clearance (sometimes out of the area, sometimes into the ground) of the "native population".
That doesn't excuse the horror of the expulsion (and slaughter) of ethnic Germans post-WW2, but it illustrates that the situation was extremely complex and was comprised of several unconnected actions by states, rather than as a homogeneous reaction to ethnic Germans.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Is that what you'd call the Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and many other nationalities who kicked out the ethnic Germans after WWII. Why aren't you starting some threads up about them? Hypocrite.

Can you call someone a hypocrite for not bringing the above into this debate, and is this the way to bring such events into this debate? You have, but does it really apply?

Following your approach to this debate, should I now call you an hypocrite for not mentioning the ethnic Germans who were brought to Srem to manage the Nazi's 'breadbasket', recruited as officers to 'manage' the Handschar, and whom the Yugoslav resistant fought against?

 

[ymu]

It's funny how other crimes against humanity are only ever raised by the apologists when Israel's crimes are in the spotlight. And if it was a Palestine thread, there'd be the usual berating for not posting about Darfur or Tibet or any of those other conflicts where noone turns up to support the oppressors.

Well, at least it is tacit admission that the situations are comparable; which is quite a breakthrough for the apologists of Israel. But the thinking is the same shoddy Zioprop; clutching at straws. As if the existence of other crimes makes those of Israel insignificant. So proud of being a democracy with no need to live up to the ideals of democracy as long as others have a speck in their eye.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It's funny how other crimes against humanity are only ever raised by the apologists when Israel's crimes are in the spotlight. And if it was a Palestine thread, there'd be the usual berating for not posting about Darfur or Tibet or any of those other conflicts where noone turns up to support the oppressors.

Thats the wholepoint there are other actions and situations as well as the plight of the Palestinians and Israelis. I think there should be attention paid to the situation there as well as Darfur and others.

We should be working for the peacefull resolution of all of them. Both (as regards Israel and Palestine) peoples need a peaceful space and time to work through the practicalities of peace. From talking to people in the region who are close to the politics IYSWIM it looks like the boundary laid out by the security fence / wall will end up as the final barrier. As long as the obvious injustices of the wall / borders route but I hold hopfully not vain hopes that there will be someform of Greater Holy Lands economic and political confederation. It could even benefit other nations in the region Europe was mired in bloodshed for thousands of years and the EU although not in anyway perfect is a partial model for what I would like to see as a end result.




<fuck me I'm turning into a fucking hippy >

 

[frogwoman]

erm hang on ymu ... there are loads of threads in this forum about issues which have nothing to do with israel, such as burma, the problem with workers dying in greece, etc.

I have started threads before in the past about little known countries with horrible things happening in them but they often drop off the first page - at least they did in the past, because everyone is more interested in discussing the rights and wrongs of zionism instead - and its not just the zionists who do that.

 

[ymu]

erm hang on ymu ... there are loads of threads in this forum about issues which have nothing to do with israel, such as burma, the problem with workers dying in greece, etc.

Yes, there are loads of threads on other issues. But try to discuss Israel/Palestine and you will frequently be told that you're a hypocrite for not talking about Darfur or Tibet. That does not happen on the other threads you mention; only when there is an attempt to discuss the injustice meted out to Palestinians. That's why so much bandwidth gets devoted to it. Noone's turned up on the Burma thread to defend the Junta against all charges ...

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Junta against all charges ...

They pay their bills to whoever is supplying them with 'stuff'. Erm thats the only defence I can think of for the Burmese Junta.

 

[frogwoman]

Yes, there are loads of threads on other issues. But try to discuss Israel/Palestine and you will frequently be told that you're a hypocrite for not talking about Darfur or Tibet. That does not happen on the other threads you mention; only when there is an attempt to discuss the injustice meted out to Palestinians. That's why so much bandwidth gets devoted to it. Noone's turned up on the Burma thread to defend the Junta against all charges ...

I remember starting a thread here ages ago about oppresssed Jews in Central Asia and people started going on about it then.

And no they have not but that is because people don't know that much about it on here, on other sites I've actually seen people doing just that.

Never mind though, I'm just saying that it's not as bad as people are making it out to be.

 

[ymu]

Fair point froggy. This thread is not being allowed to rerail either. Apologies for my part in that, but I do consider it defamatory and racist to automatically associate any Jewish person/issue with Israel; it's a shameful red herring for people on both sides, IMO.

 

[frogwoman]

yeah i actually feel a bit intimidated from starting threads about jews and anti-semitism in eastern europe and that kind of issue a lot of the time because of the response i've had in the past and because every issue like that automatically turns into a slanging match about israel.

 

[frogwoman]

And re the burma thing - there is a whole forum devoted to arguments between israel and palestine, there is stuff about it all the time on the news, something which is reflected in real life with both the eu and the us giving billions of dollars a year to either of them, there are loads of NGOs helping both sides etc etc. None of that is true for burma, darfur, west papua, etc.

 

[frogwoman]

Although to be fair I'd rather do something to rectify that situation rather than whinge about it (I got an email a few days ago about a burma solidarity group starting up in oxford)...baby steps, eh.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Get to bed. You're confused

.

The regions later called Sudetenland were situated on the borders of the Kingdom of Bohemia, which also consisted of Moravia (and later Silesia) and was in turn part of the Holy Roman Empire. After the extinction of the Czech Přemyslid dynasty, the kingdom was ruled by the Luxemburgs, later the Jagiellonians and finally the Habsburgs. Already from the 13th century onwards the border regions of Bohemia and Moravia, called Sudetenland in the 20th century, were settled by Germans, who were invited by the originally Slavic Bohemian nobility.

The Habsburgs integrated the Kingdom of Bohemia and Moravia into their monarchy, and it remained an integral part of that kingdom until the advent of modern nationalism in the 19th century. Conflicts between Czech and German nationalists emerged, for instance in the Revolutions of 1848 in the Habsburg areas: while the German-speaking population wanted to participate in the building of a German nation state, the Czech-speaking population insisted on keeping Bohemia out of such plans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's very noticable you only have outrage for those who took in the victims of ethnic cleansing rather than the perpetrators. Are you happy being so clearly identified with racist thieves?

The British, and the UN?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Well, at least it is tacit admission that the situations are comparable; which is quite a breakthrough for the apologists of Israel. But the thinking is the same shoddy Zioprop; clutching at straws. As if the existence of other crimes makes those of Israel insignificant. So proud of being a democracy with no need to live up to the ideals of democracy as long as others have a speck in their eye.

The point being made, is that tens of millions of people were displaced as a consequence of the politics of the early twentieth century, including the effects of the two wars. Some of these people or their descendants have been able to return to the lands where they originated; others haven't.

However, to listen to some, one would think that the Palestinian refugees occupied some sort of special status in the world. They don't, although that fact doesn't make their situation less of a tragedy.

As stated before, the one fairly singular aspect to their situation, is the continued insistance by their host nations, that they not assimilate, and instead remain in camps, for decade after decade.

 

[Spion]

As stated before, the one fairly singular aspect to their situation, is the continued insistance by their host nations, that they not assimilate, and instead remain in camps, for decade after decade.

There you go again, you blame the 'relatives' of the victim and not the thief. Israel stole hundreds of thousands of acres of land and many many millions of dollars worth of businesses from the Palestinians. Why on earth would the Arab states make good for a crime Israel committed?

Perhaps if Israel spoke to these states nicely and offered to fund infrastructure, housing, new businesses etc, then they might choose to let them live there properly. I mean, what better could a thief do to to recompense its victims?

 

[ViolentPanda]

The point being made, is that tens of millions of people were displaced as a consequence of the politics of the early twentieth century, including the effects of the two wars. Some of these people or their descendants have been able to return to the lands where they originated; others haven't.

However, to listen to some, one would think that the Palestinian refugees occupied some sort of special status in the world. They don't, although that fact doesn't make their situation less of a tragedy.

As stated before, the one fairly singular aspect to their situation, is the continued insistance by their host nations, that they not assimilate, and instead remain in camps, for decade after decade.

You're missing a very important point of difference between the displacements of the early 20th century in Europe and the displacement of the Palestinians, which is that when territory in Europe was appropriated/re-appropriated and populations shifted, the person moving onto the land didn't claim it was "nearly empty", "a barren wilderness" or the like, they acknowledged what had been done. The state of Israel does not.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

There you go again, you blame the 'relatives' of the victim and not the thief. Israel stole hundreds of thousands of acres of land and many many millions of dollars worth of businesses from the Palestinians. Why on earth would the Arab states make good for a crime Israel committed?

The UK [balfour] and the UN put the jews there in the first place. Blame where blame is due.

As for the arabs, those millions of displaced Germans, Poles etc in Europe weren't exactly wanted and valued guests in the countries they were forced into either, but ultimately those destination countries did the right thing ,and allowed the refugees to assimilate.

Why can't the arab countries do likewise, all these decades later?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You're missing a very important point of difference between the displacements of the early 20th century in Europe and the displacement of the Palestinians, which is that when territory in Europe was appropriated/re-appropriated and populations shifted, the person moving onto the land didn't claim it was "nearly empty", "a barren wilderness" or the like, they acknowledged what had been done. The state of Israel does not.

Well, I'd say that after the Sudeten Germans were kicked out of the Sudetenland, that area became 'nearly empty'. And then, a bunch of czechoslovakians moved in.

How is that different?

 

[Spion]

The UK [balfour] and the UN put the jews there in the first place. Blame where blame is due.

The British and UN created the framework, but it was the zionists who did the driving out, shooting, the shelling, the raping, the poisoning of water supplies.

Israel stole hundreds of thousands of acres of land and many many millions of dollars worth of businesses from the Palestinians. How can peace be achieved if there is no accountability for these things?

Doesn't not being able to answer such straight questions every day eat away at you?

 

[Spion]

Well, I'd say that after the Sudeten Germans were kicked out of the Sudetenland, that area became 'nearly empty'. And then, a bunch of czechoslovakians moved in.

How is that different?

If that's the case and there are claims for compensation or return they should be satisfied. Don't you agree?

Now, why do you want deny that to victims of theft elsewhere? Or is ethnic cleansing and theft OK in your book?

 

[ymu]

If that's the case and there are claims for compensation or return they should be satisfied. Don't you agree?

Now, why do you want deny that to victims of theft elsewhere? Or is ethnic cleansing and theft OK in your book?

It's amazing he is so repetitively critical of the undoubtedly shitty the actions of the Arab states, and occasionally even rightfully abhors the actions of the British Empire, but defends Israel's crimes so vigorously. Strange agenda.

There aren't many crimes covered by the ICC that Israel hasn't committed, with extensive documentary evidence of the facts. But it's OK according to Johnny. Not sure why. He hasn't explained that bit yet. He just keeps waffling on about other crimes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, I'd say that after the Sudeten Germans were kicked out of the Sudetenland, that area became 'nearly empty'. And then, a bunch of czechoslovakians moved in.

You might very well say that, but I'd warn you to be prepared to be mocked, because you'd be talking shite.

How is that different?

Well, since you asked...

Palestine, prior to WW2, had a population balance of somewhere around 80-85% Gentile to 15-20% Jewish.
The Sudetendeutsche were only ever a (large) minority in Czechoslovakia.

The Palestinians didn't invite in the people who annexed their territory.
The Sudetendeutsche did.

The state of Israel claims that the land was sparsely settled and only admit to "displacing" Palestinians amounting to about a tenth of the actual volume.
The nation-state of Czechoslovakia freely admitted to having expelled the Sudetendeutsche. The successor-states to Czechoslovakia have been negotiating reparations since the fall of the Iron Curtain. No-one at any time made spurious claims about settling "near-empty land" that had sat unoccupied "since time immemorial" save for occasional nomad stop-overs.

That enough to be going on with?

 

[ViolentPanda]

If that's the case and there are claims for compensation or return they should be satisfied. Don't you agree?

It's happening in many of the central states, Poles,Germans, Hungarians, Czechs, Austrians, Bulgars and Slovaks etc etc, all working out their mutual compensation and reparation claims.

Now, why do you want deny that to victims of theft elsewhere? Or is ethnic cleansing and theft OK in your book?

It's that belief in the state of Israel being a "special case".

 

[goldenecitrone]

It's happening in many of the central states, Poles,Germans, Hungarians, Czechs, Austrians, Bulgars and Slovaks etc etc, all working out their mutual compensation and reparation claims.

And the chances of the Sudeten and Silesian Germans being given their land back are about as good as the Palestinians getting theirs back. There is one big difference though. The Germans can afford to buy their land back.

 

[Spion]

There is one big difference though. The Germans can afford to buy their land back.

I'm sure the Palestinians could too. Trouble is, non-Jews ability to buy land in Israel is limited or non-existant, AFAIK

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/906704.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Land_Administration

 

[goldenecitrone]

I'm sure the Palestinians could too. Trouble is, non-Jews ability to buy land in Israel is limited or non-existant, AFAIK

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/906704.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Land_Administration

The saddest thing is that at the moment the Israelis are attempting to cut the West Bank in two and thus make it almost impossible for a Palestinian state ever to come into existence. There's not much that can be done about what happened sixty years ago, but something should be done to prevent that.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The British and UN created the framework, but it was the zionists who did the driving out, shooting, the shelling, the raping, the poisoning of water supplies.

Israel stole hundreds of thousands of acres of land and many many millions of dollars worth of businesses from the Palestinians. How can peace be achieved if there is no accountability for these things?

Doesn't not being able to answer such straight questions every day eat away at you?

Doesn't it bother you that you can't see that millions of people were unfairly displaced following the second world war, but only the palestinians remain in the refugee camps?