Nazi Concentration Camps

[Johnny Canuck3]

. Its like cleaning the boys showers after a football game.

Oh, come on: you like the rich aroma.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

. Hitler also had plans to hunt down and eliminate all Jews and their relations outside of German-held territories, were he to have 'won' the second world war.

Not just 'had plans': 'was doing'.

That's what the Sonderkommando was all about.

On October 22, 1941, an explosion wrecked a part of the building of the Rumanian military general headquarters (the former headquarters of the Soviet secret police). General Glogojeanu, the city's military commander, and many Rumanian and German officers and soldiers were killed. In the first reprisals carried out the following day, 5,000 persons, most of them Jews, were killed. Many of them were hanged at crossings and in the public squares. Ion Antonescu ordered the execution of 200 communists for every officer who had been killed, and 100 for every soldier, and ordered that one member of every Jewish family be taken hostage. Nineteen thousand Jews were arrested and brought to the square at the harbor, doused with gasoline, and burned. Another 16,000 were taken the following day to the outskirts, where all of them were massacred. Another 5,000 Jews were subsequently arrested, and soon after the massacres, deported to camps set up in Bogdanovka, Domanevka, Krivoye Ozero, and other villages, where about 70,000 Jews, all from southern Transnistria, were concentrated. During December 1941 and January 1942, almost all of them were killed by special units of Sonderkommando (Russia) aided by Rumanian police soldiers, Ukrainian militia, and, especially, by the SS units, made up of former German colonists in the region. On Dec. 7, 1941, Odessa became the capital of Transnistria. The governor, G. Alexianu, and all the administrative institutions transferred their headquarters from Tiraspol to Odessa. Subsequently, steps were taken to make Odessa Judenrein. After the last convoy left on February 23, 1942, Odessa was proclaimed Judenrein. The local inhabitants and the occupying forces looted Jewish property. The old Jewish cemetery was desecrated and hundreds of granite and marble tombstones were shipped to Rumania and sold.

Soviet troops under general Malinovsky returned to Odessa on April 10, 1944. It is estimated that at the time of liberation, a few thousand Jews were living in Odessa, some of them under false documents or in hiding in the catacombs. Others were given shelter by non-Jewish families. There had been numerous informers among the local Russians and Ukrainians but also persons who risked their liberty and even their lives to save Jews.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

If the Isrealis were doing anything even remotely similar to that in the event of the death of an Isreali soldier, there wouldn't be any Palestinians left.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Oh yeah, the cite for that bit:

http://www.bh.org.il/Exhibitions/Odessa/community.asp

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

And because I don't agree with your piecemeal pro-Zionist dreck I "don't understand", eh?

Do yourself a favour, Johnny. Only patronise someone when you've actually got good reason to be condescending, not when, as usual, you're bathing in the warm glow of your own ignorance.

Who better to be that way to than a self-hating jew?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Which is exactly what Dachau was; a concentration camp, not a prison camp, not a death camp (which were all in Poland) and not an internment camp.

So what? Get yourself to a computer that will run broadband, and watch the bit about Dachau.

After seeing or knowing what went on there, to quibble about whether or not to call it a 'death camp' or a 'concentration camp'..........what was that word you used - perfidious?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Nobody in Europe gave a fuck when the Second Reich was engaging in genocide in Namibia for instance, the Germans basiclly practiced in africa before they rolled out the concept in europe, it's only then that suddenly people got all shocked and outraged.

Piles of black corpses were one thing, piles but white corpses... why, that was totally beyond the pale. Those beastly Germans, how could they.

True enough. The world was aghast when Richtofhen used Guernica as the practice ground for perfecting the carpet bombing of civilians. Nobody really gave a shit when Mussolini was bombing Ethiopia, etc.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

And what is it about the British character that they could let 80 million people die in India in the name of market fundamentalism?

Not a well known bit of history that, they should call it the Capitalist Holocaust, children should learn about it in school, what the British did, questions should be asked of the British character, of what could go so deeply wrong in a society that it would produce such a sickness...

I'm not defending the british by any means, but one difference. The mass killing you're talking about happened half a world away at a time when communication was rudimentary.

The Holocaust happened right next door to the average German; it happened right outside in the street.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Indeed. Beastliness in Europeans is such a rare trait it's impossible to believe that the European types who founded Israel could possibly be responsible for anything similar. It's a genetic thing in the specifically German psyche, you see. It could never be something to do with a handful of powerful individuals and the power of propaganda. An interpretation based on debunked race theory is waaaay more valid.

But they were just so darn good at it.

Members of a Sonderkommando 1005 unit pose next to a bone crushing machine in the Janowska concentration camp.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You may think that accuracy and distinguishing the various facilities that the Nazis used as "pedantry", personally I think that making a distinction between camps that "processed" victims on arrival, i.e. took their lives and possessions within hours of their arrival, from camps where people were held and used for slave labour, but who had a chance, however small of LIFE, is a distinction worth making.

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Perhaps, but it seems to me that the effect, unintended or not, of quibbling about this terminology, is to create a situation wherein the scale of death and atrocity occuring at the concentration camps is glossed over or forgotten, especially by the uninformed young citizens of today.

 

[ymu]

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[ymu]

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[ymu]

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[ymu]

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[invisibleplanet]

It's one thing to mention the use of film and fotography to document mans' inhumanity to man but another thing entirely to turn this thread entirely into a nakba vs. holocaust thread.

Those images would be more powerfully used in a separate thread - why not make a new thread, ymu? The Naqba/Nabka deserves it's own space for discussion. Please.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Good idea. Lets compare pictures of the Holocaust, and the Naqba.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Walking to Babi Yar.

 

[ymu]

The comparisons with Nazi Germany refer to the lengthy period prior to the Final Solution and the construction of the Death Camps from ~1942. The 1930s and early WWII were when there was still time to stop it happening, had the politicians not been so busy appeasing Hitler.

Sorry IP. But 6 million+ Palestinians enduring a living death in conditions which have only worsened over more than half a century whilst the world looks on is obscene and the volunteer stenographers for the Zionationalists should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Look at your own pictures at the palestinians, then look at the jews in the forties. Who is living the 'living death'?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Burning Corpses of Hungarian Jews In Large Pits

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Children in concentration camps who had been used for medical experiments.

Female Jewish victim of Nazi medical experiments

Victim of a medical experiment immersed in freezing water at the Dachau concentration camp. Dachau, Germany, between August 1942 and May 1943.

A prisoner in a compression chamber loses consciousness (and later dies) during an experiment to determine altitudes at which aircraft crews could survive without oxygen. Dachau, Germany, 1942

 

[frogwoman]

no offence anyoen but i find this whole "my atrocities are worst than yours" rather sickening .... and that includes all the participants on this thread, btw.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

A village execution of Jewish Poles by a German squad

Jewish deportees from the Lodz Ghetto arrive in Chelmno Extermination Camp

The prisoners of Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp climb the infamous Stairs of Death with heavy stones on their backs.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

no offence anyoen but i find this whole "my atrocities are worst than yours" rather sickening .... and that includes all the participants on this thread, btw.

Ymu is somehow trying to draw a parallel between what the Israeli govt does, and what the Nazis did.

That is a blatant exaggeration/falsehood. Unfortunately, many people might believe him/her.

 

[frogwoman]

Ymu is somehow trying to draw a parallel between what the Israeli govt does, and what the Nazis did.

That is a blatant exaggeration/falsehood. Unfortunately, many people might believe him/her.

well imo she is wrong yeah

but i don't think if they believe that they'd be convinced by people using victims of the shoah's pictures to prove a point in an argument ... and i disagree with people doing such a thing, i find it distasteful to be honest ...

on either side (and i know the pro-palestinian lot do it too)

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

well imo she is wrong yeah

but i don't think if they believe that they'd be convinced by people using victims of the shoah's pictures to prove a point in an argument ... and i disagree with people doing such a thing, i find it distasteful to be honest ...

on either side (and i know the pro-palestinian lot do it too)

Unfortunately, I believe that fewer and fewer people have seen these pictures. I think it's important that they never be buried.

I can understand why you wouldn't want to look at this. I know you're jewish, and young.

I recall seeing lynching pictures when I was a kid. It was a profound shock, and a revelation, that I shared the one [irrelevant] thing that qualified those people for lynching: ie black skin. It scared the shit out of me.

Fact is, though, that I am black. I had to learn the truth, to protect myself, and to face my fear. Also, I had to try to understand why and how such a thing could have come to pass, hopefully so that I could be a part of ensuring that it didn't happen again.

You're a jew. It's the same thing, and the same things apply.

 

[frogwoman]

im not having a go, just pointing out, i dont like it, i find it distateful, this continual struggle about how had it worst than who ...

Its like the old scketch of the people trying to prove how working class they are ... by saying "oh in my day, we worked down tpit and we were so poor we had to live in a terraced house and we had gruel and bread for breakfast"
"we were so poor we didnt have a house we lived in a cardboard box on the street and we didn't even have that we had to make do with crumbs!"
"we were so poor we didnt have a street, we lived in the mud by a farm and had to eat stones and if we didnt collect enough we would be punished by being flattened by the farmers steamroller" '
"stones, pah what luxury, we had to make do with dog poo..."

and so on ... you see how i find it distasteful, on this kind of thread ... And i dont think that kind of behaviour is appropraite, on a thread about things like the holocaust ... and im not only talking to you btw

 

[ymu]

It's not about a hierarchy of suffering - there is no such thing. It's precisely because of Israel's insistence that there is that we have this problem. Being abused does not justify becoming an abuser, however human, common and easily explicable that particular response is.

The influence of the Holocaust on the character of the survivors, their children and children's children, is a complex phenomenon. Once, a high-school principal gave me the compositions written by his pupils, boys and girls, after a visit to Auschwitz. The reactions divided into two groups.

Most of the pupils wrote something like: "After seeing what the Nazis did to the Jews, my conclusion is that the defense of Israel and the Jewish people is the highest commandment, and for this end, everything is permitted."
A minority of the pupils wrote something like: "After seeing what the Nazis did to the Jews, my conclusion is that the Jewish State must be more humane than any other and set an example of how to behave towards minorities, so that this can never happen again."

From: Tommy's granny, by Uri Avnery

 

[frogwoman]

Unfortunately, I believe that fewer and fewer people have seen these pictures. I think it's important that they never be buried.

I can understand why you wouldn't want to look at this. I know you're jewish, and young.

I recall seeing lynching pictures when I was a kid. It was a profound shock, and a revelation, that I shared the one [irrelevant] thing that qualified those people for lynching: ie black skin. It scared the shit out of me.

Fact is, though, that I am black. I had to learn the truth, to protect myself, and to face my fear. Also, I had to try to understand why and how such a thing could have come to pass, hopefully so that I could be a part of ensuring that it didn't happen again.

You're a jew. It's the same thing, and the same things apply.

I think its important to but i don't think it is appropriate to use pictures of those things in political arguments, because they deserve to shown some respect, and as i have just said, i think if you do that and so does the other side it sounds like the rediculous pissing match i have described in my post above ... and the victms deserve a bit more respect than that ...

 

[frogwoman]

It's not about a hierarchy of suffering - there is no such thing. It's precisely because of Israel's insistence that there is that we have this problem. Being abused does not justify becoming an abuser, however human, common and easily explicable that particular response is.

yeh but that might be true, but the way you both are behaving on this thread makes it seem like that's what you are doing. And im saying that i find it inapppropriate and i dont think that such images whether, they are palestinian or jewish, should not be used in such a manner.