Nazi Concentration Camps

[Spion]

The posturing. The intellectual disengenuiness (on more than one side). The little testosterone flourishes. Its like cleaning the boys showers after a football game.

You mean women would debate more nicely? I don't really believe that and get a bit tired of people whinging about it. Fundamentally, if there are things you believe in and dislike seeing people get away with spreading lies you just have to put up with the shit that flies around. It ain't ever gonna get any nicer you know. And if you're here with an honest attitude then you're needed. There are too many liars here and they need counterbalancing

 

[invisibleplanet]

Had me and my son lived in any of the German occupied territories, there is no doubt that both he and I would have been sent to a concentration camp. It would have been the same for frogwoman and her family, and frogwoman would have been incarcerated and eliminated on two counts - for having a Jewish father and for being openly LGBT.

Hitler's policy of extermination was not only to hunt down all Jews who within German territories but also anyone who had a Jewish mother or father. Hitler also had plans to hunt down and eliminate all Jews and their relations outside of German-held territories, were he to have 'won' the second world war.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

You mean women would debate more nicely? I don't really believe that and get a bit tired of people whinging about it. Fundamentally, if there are things you believe in and dislike seeing people get away with spreading lies you just have to put up with the shit that flies around. It ain't ever gonna get any nicer you know. And if you're here with an honest attitude then you're needed. There are too many liars here and they need counterbalancing

No, thats not what I meant. Women arn't nice either.

But, peeps are arguing things they don't really believe just to score points. There's enough of a lack of integrity to go around on this thread.

 

[Spion]

But, peeps are arguing things they don't really believe just to score points.

Well, if you think people are doing that call em on it. I see no other way to deal with it than to do that and to force people to provide evidence for their assertions

 

[camouflage]

You're right: I guess it's ok then!

I remember a teacher talking about the genocide against the Ibo in Nigeria, years ago. He couldn't understand what the problem was, because all the parties to the dispute were black.

I wanted to say, 'but the Germans, Jews, and British, etc: they're all white: what was the problem?

No you div, I felt the need to point that out because the media seems to be pushing the image that there's bunch of "arabs" killing "black people" in Africa, which is a misrepresentation. Why you think that pointing out that this is a misrepresentation means I think it's okay is beyond me. Surely you've more intelligence than that...

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's too bad. If you did, it might help you gain some understanding of why your co religionists wanted to have their own country somewhere outside of Europe.

And because I don't agree with your piecemeal pro-Zionist dreck I "don't understand", eh?

Do yourself a favour, Johnny. Only patronise someone when you've actually got good reason to be condescending, not when, as usual, you're bathing in the warm glow of your own ignorance.

 

[ViolentPanda]

They go through a bunch of camps. They've just gotten to Dachau, which they refer to as a concentration camp.

Which is exactly what Dachau was; a concentration camp, not a prison camp, not a death camp (which were all in Poland) and not an internment camp.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I didn't realize that at Bergen Belsen, the prisoners would cut out the livers of the dead, for something to eat.

Cannibalism, unfortunately, wasn't rare amongst inmates, especially post '43 when losses in the east meant no access to Ukrainian grain, so inmate rations (those that actually got to the inmates rather than being resold on the black market) were cut to about 400 calories a day.

 

[camouflage]

It's interesting watching that film. Nowadays, we're pretty used to seeing heaps of black corpses, or dark skinned people emaciated and starving. In the film, you see stacks of white corpses; corpses with flies in the mouths, partially burned corpses.

I know that the Second World War had its origin in the First, but it's hard to fathom what it was that precipitated the things you see in that film.

Nobody in Europe gave a fuck when the Second Reich was engaging in genocide in Namibia for instance, the Germans basiclly practiced in africa before they rolled out the concept in europe, it's only then that suddenly people got all shocked and outraged.

Piles of black corpses were one thing, piles but white corpses... why, that was totally beyond the pale. Those beastly Germans, how could they.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Had me and my son lived in any of the German occupied territories, there is no doubt that both he and I would have been sent to a concentration camp. It would have been the same for frogwoman and her family, and frogwoman would have been incarcerated and eliminated on two counts - for having a Jewish father and for being openly LGBT.

I'd have been "lucky", the Soviets would probably already have killed me for my politics and geographical location.
They'd have probably pissed on my grave though.

Hitler's policy of extermination was not only to hunt down all Jews who within German territories but also anyone who had a Jewish mother or father. Hitler also had plans to hunt down and eliminate all Jews and their relations outside of German-held territories, were he to have 'won' the second world war.

And he would have extended the "cull" to 3 generations, rather than 2, as had happened in the "Greater German territories".

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, thats not what I meant. Women arn't nice either.

But, peeps are arguing things they don't really believe just to score points. There's enough of a lack of integrity to go around on this thread.

I can assure you I only argue for things I believe in, and things I believe in, I also believe in informing myself about as widely as possible. Knowledge is power against ignorance.

 

[camouflage]

Now, as to the thread topic- There must be something in the German character that would permit such barbarity to happen. My dad's side of the family was of German ancestory & while growing up I thought "Jew" was a cuss word because of the context in which it was used. Although Jews have been opressed & slaughtered in most every culture they have lived in throughout the centuries, Germany took it to a higher level than ever.

And what is it about the British character that they could let 80 million people die in India in the name of market fundamentalism?

Not a well known bit of history that, they should call it the Capitalist Holocaust, children should learn about it in school, what the British did, questions should be asked of the British character, of what could go so deeply wrong in a society that it would produce such a sickness...

As it is, I mentioned to a friend the other day about the famines, and he said.. "yeah, I think I remember hearing something about that...". Now that, is what I call a well covered crime.

*edited to change 8 million to 80 million, estimated number of people that died in Indias famines because of British market fundamentalism and cash-cropping. Think a similar thing happened in the Irish potato famine, in terms of capitalism taking precendece to sanity.

 

[ymu]

Those beastly Germans, how could they.

Indeed. Beastliness in Europeans is such a rare trait it's impossible to believe that the European types who founded Israel could possibly be responsible for anything similar. It's a genetic thing in the specifically German psyche, you see. It could never be something to do with a handful of powerful individuals and the power of propaganda. An interpretation based on debunked race theory is waaaay more valid.

 

[Spion]

And what is it about the British character that they could let 8 million people die in India in the name of market fundamentalism?

Not a well known bit of history that, they should call it the Capitalist Holocaust, children should learn about it in school, what the British did, questions should be asked of the British character, of what could go so deeply wrong in a society that it would produce such a sickness...

As it is, I mentioned to a friend the other day about the famines, and he said.. "yeah, I think I remember hearing something about that...". Now that, is what I call a well covered crime.

Top post, Foreigner. There's too much silence on this, too many people who think our ancestors' empire was some sort of chummy muddling along benevolent enterprise that gave the world parliaments. There needs to be some work done on this.

 

[ymu]

And what is it about the British character that they could let 8 million people die in India in the name of market fundamentalism?

Not a well known bit of history that, they should call it the Capitalist Holocaust, children should learn about it in school, what the British did, questions should be asked of the British character, of what could go so deeply wrong in a society that it would produce such a sickness...

As it is, I mentioned to a friend the other day about the famines, and he said.. "yeah, I think I remember hearing something about that...". Now that, is what I call a well covered crime.

Aye. And given the contunuing legacy of the British Empire, there probably aren't enough people in the world for any other to overtake them in the foreseeable future, in terms of sheer brutality and arrogant indifference to those elsewhere. Didn't they even waste a load of time in WWII trying to make sure the French colonies didn't fall into German hands? Never understood what the fuck they were doing in North Africa when millions were dying in Europe.

 

[Spion]

Never understood what the fuck they were doing in North Africa when millions were dying in Europe.

Two reaons. 1) It was to protect the Suez canal from German takeover. India was still the jewel in the crown of the empire and the canal was the most vital route to it. 2) There was also the fear the the Germans would carry out a giant pincer movement from the Caucasus in the north and north Africa/the Levant in the south, meeting up to take control of the Middle East's oilfields

Actually, thinking about it, reason 2 is the key one. The Brits couldn't use the SC during the war as a route to India (I don't think - anyone?), but they certainly didn't want the Germans gaining freedom to use it or the Meditearranean

 

[London_Calling]

This thread reminds me of why I rarely post in P&P any more.

It's appalling isn't it.

Not just the posturing but the commitment to intellectual dishonesty and lack of integrity.

The general idea is to learn through debate, not forget you ever developed critical faculties.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Aye. And given the contunuing legacy of the British Empire, there probably aren't enough people in the world for any other to overtake them in the foreseeable future, in terms of sheer brutality and arrogant indifference to those elsewhere. Didn't they even waste a load of time in WWII trying to make sure the French colonies didn't fall into German hands? Never understood what the fuck they were doing in North Africa when millions were dying in Europe.

Making sure that the North African states remained European colonial possessions, for the most part, but also trying to prevent the Germans gaining a springboard into the med.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Cannibalism, unfortunately, wasn't rare amongst inmates, especially post '43 when losses in the east meant no access to Ukrainian grain, so inmate rations (those that actually got to the inmates rather than being resold on the black market) were cut to about 400 calories a day.

This from Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945, (Catalogue from Dachau Museum, p128, published 1978 by the Comite International de Dachau)

Morning
350gr ration of bread for the whole day
1/2 lt. substitute coffee
Midday
6 times per week: 1 lt. turnip or cabbage soup
once a week: 1 lt. noodle soup
Evening
4 times per week: 20-30gr sausage or cheese
3/4 lt. substitute tea
3 times a week: 1 lt. soup

This from the Arbeiter Zeitung (Worker's News) Jan 4 1934

London, January 3 1934, The Manchester Guardian reports on the Dachau Concentration Camp:

The 2200 to 2400 internees are accomodated in 10 barrack huts. They include 50 intellectuals, a few members of the middle class, 50 or 60 Nazs, approximately 500 social democrats, 2 officers, several criminals ad 15 foreigners, the rest being communists. The majority of the prisoners are from the working class. The prisoners are organised in 10 companies each with a maximum of 270 men. Number 7 is the disciplinary company, number 1 is composed of social democrats and communist workers, and number 2 consists of Jews. Communist functionaries refusing to give the Nazis political information are locked in cells. The cells are damp, dark, and without heating. The prisoners are chained to the walls; crude wooden planks serve as beds. In September the prisoners were made to build 21 new cells.
Corporal punishment is practiced in Dachau. The prisoners are flogged with wire-bound whips which they have to make themselves. They receive 25-75 heavy lashes.
On entry to the camp, communists and social democrats are beaten for no apparent reasons. The prisoners are also beaten with wet towels. Seven SA-men, brought to the camp on August 1, were so ill-treated that two of them, Amuschel and Handschuch, died as a result. The communist Fritz Schaper was ill-treated in such a way that he was unable to move for two months. On September 2, a Nazi guard struck one of the prisoners, breaking his jaw.
The prisoners are also often burned with lighted cigarettes.
Among those suffering the most terrible treatement are L.Buchmann, Georg Freischutz and the journalist Ewald Thunig. The Munich communist, Sepp Gotz, was murdered after being so severely ill-treated that he could no longer stand. The student Wickelmeier was shot. The communist, Fritz Dressel, died as a result of ill-treatment.
Town councillor Hausman, Lehrburger, the "Reichsbanner"-man Aron, Willi Franz, and Buerk, a communist functionary from Memingen, were killed: a total of nearly 50 men.
The correspondent of the Manchester Guardian is in possession of the names of 9 guards who ill-treat and murder prisoners.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's appalling isn't it.

Not just the posturing but the commitment to intellectual dishonesty and lack of integrity.

The general idea is to learn through debate, not forget you ever developed critical faculties.

I wonder why the word "sententious" is the one that springs most readily to my mind when reading your post?

 

[ViolentPanda]

This from Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945, (Catalogue from Dachau Museum, p128, published 1978 by the Comite International de Dachau)

Seems about right, though I doubt the sausage ever made it as far as the table.

 

[JoePolitix]

Which is exactly what Dachau was; a concentration camp, not a prison camp, not a death camp (which were all in Poland) and not an internment camp.

What is the point of this pedantry?

Over a quarter of a million people died of disease and starvation in Dachua - what's the point of dwelling over whether it should arbitrarily be catagorized as a death camp or concentration camp?

Seems to underline the point made by Yuwipi Woman,Frog Woman and London Calling that this thread is generally more about playing Mr Boasty than serious historical debate.

 

[invisibleplanet]

What is the point of this pedantry?

It was a correction from 'death camp' to 'concentration camp'.
Not pedantry, but a desire for accuracy of information.

Over a quarter of a million people died of disease and starvation in Dachua - what's the point of dwelling over whether it should arbitrarily be catagorized as a death camp or concentration camp?

It's all in the detail. And there are lots of details documenting these atrocities, due to the Nazi bureaucrats that administered these atrocities.

Seems to underline the point made by Yuwipi Woman,Frog Woman and London Calling that this thread is generally more about playing Mr Boasty than serious historical debate.

No, this thread is about serious historical debate, hence the need to point out that Dachau was a concentration camp, and not a death camp.

 

[invisibleplanet]

And what is it about the British character that they could let 80 million people die in India in the name of market fundamentalism?

Something very similar is happening today in India after the US-India nuclear deal, and the compulsory 'US aid' which involves allowing Monsanto, Walmart and Cargill and I think also ADM to "capture India's markets" and cause land dispossession and market collapse on a vast scale for small, independent farmers - the land is then acquired by US agri-giants to be used in their biotech 'experiments' such as GM crops.
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/vandana_shiva/2006/07/wto_is_dead_long_live_free_tra.html

foreigner, your post deserves a thread to itself!

 

[ViolentPanda]

What is the point of this pedantry?

Over a quarter of a million people died of disease and starvation in Dachua - what's the point of dwelling over whether it should arbitrarily be catagorized as a death camp or concentration camp?

Seems to underline the point made by Yuwipi Woman,Frog Woman and London Calling that this thread is generally more about playing Mr Boasty than serious historical debate.

You may think that accuracy and distinguishing the various facilities that the Nazis used as "pedantry", personally I think that making a distinction between camps that "processed" victims on arrival, i.e. took their lives and possessions within hours of their arrival, from camps where people were held and used for slave labour, but who had a chance, however small of LIFE, is a distinction worth making.

So please feel free to stick your "Mr Boasty" where the sun doesn't shine, Joe.

 

[invisibleplanet]

From p132 of the Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945 Catalogue from Dachau Museum, published 1978 by the Comite International de Dachau.

The 499 prisoners from Dachau arrived here on Oct 29, 1942. They were in the worst conceivable condition, and physically very weak Muselmänner. A third of them may be fit for work after a two-week convalescent period. The prisoners were absolutely unsuitable for work on the "Buna" project. The group consists of 50 who are of use, 162 without a profession, and 287 agricultural workers. On Oct. 30, 1942 186 prisoners arrived from Ravensbrueck - their physical condition is better than that of the Dachau prisoners. This group is made up of 128 with useful professions and 58 without a profession.

Dept. IIIa

signed: Schwarz
SS Obersturmfuehrer

e2a: here=Auschwitz

 

[ymu]

The point being that if you don't understand the distinction you cannot understand the history being discussed.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Nice guy. Only interested in victims of oppression if they suit your narrow prejudices, huh?

Go take a look at the Middle Eastern Affairs forum. Should you want to castigate israel, you have a multitude of threads there to do it it. You can even start more: more are started every day.

A thread like this is rare on these boards.

Also, after just watching that film, to have you come along with 'but what about the Naqba??....'. Well, it makes one think; the Naqba is a tragedy, but it isn't the Holocaust.

Watch the film. I know that you haven't.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

he understands that perfectly well, he just sees all too well something you turn a blind eye to; the moral and political problems when they choose a country that already belongs to someone else

Let him speak for himself, why don't you?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

the moral and political problems when they choose a country that already belongs to someone else

I assume that the 'they' you are referring to, are the British?