'Middle Class' it's basically just a construct isn't it...

[camouflage]

No I'm talking about food, taking dole money and growing food in your yard to sell is legal, drugs and tobacco not legal but you can see the point, you don't have to spend the dole on the private sector businesses

But MonkeyGrinders work-house point aside, why are you against spending money in the private sector, afterall that's where a lot of people work... I have no problem with money doing work, money that sits around doing fuck all in a hedge fund or whatever on the other hand...

 

[butchersapron]

I wasn't really talking about that. I didn't say that people don't have lives with certain characteristics, just that most people don't think about class very often, that's all.

But they do, just not in terms that you are prepared to recognise as being about class.

 

[cool herc]

I don't like giving my money to big corps, prefer small local biz

 

[stuff_it]

You could represent the points with little metal disks

Or pieces of paper with pictures and the numbers printed on them.

 

[cool herc]

But they do, just not in terms that you are prepared to recognise as being about class.

Yeah but to some - everything is about class - when it isn't at all. It's not as bad here as in India, say.

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah but to some - everything is about class - when it isn't at all. It's not as bad here as in India, say.

Haven't you got to do some stuff to pay for your kidney stones? That's about class isn't it?

 

[cool herc]

You could represent the points with little metal disks

Yeah you could, but they would be community coins, only valid in the local community and not controlled or artificially propped up by bank of england. This is actually happening already in some towns.

 

[Santino]

I wasn't really talking about that. I didn't say that people don't have lives with certain characteristics, just that most people don't think about class very often, that's all.

Ok, a concrete example. How did you end up in the job you are in? Did you just stumble into it? Did you train for it?

What would you do if your job vanished? Find another similar one? Go on the dole because you can't do anything else? Ring up a friend who can get you a cushy number somewhere?

Everyone can answer these questions in one way or another, and they are thinking their class when they do so, to coin a phrase that sounds like it's been translated from French.

 

[cool herc]

Haven't you got to so some stuff to pay for your kidney stones?

say what now?

 

[stuff_it]

Yeah you could, but they would be community coins, only valid in the local community and not controlled or artificially propped up by bank of england. This is actually happening already in some towns.

No more tea.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But they do, just not in terms that you are prepared to recognise as being about class.

They have everyday concerns that are determined by class, yes. But that isn't what I was saying. Anyway, silly argument.

 

[cool herc]

No more tea.

organic tea..? plenty of nettles around, just avoid the ones that smell like doggy piss

 

[butchersapron]

say what now?

Herc Needs Health Care, So Do We All

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

No, I mean abolishing money and having a labour credit exchange system. A window cleaner earns 3 point per house - he can exchange 10 credits for an hours babysitting, that kind of thing. Could extend to food and drink.

Abolishing money altogether? That's a different point entirely to what happens to the dole system.

What happens if the window cleaner fancies a banana?

 

[stuff_it]

organic tea..? plenty of nettles around, just avoid the ones that smell like doggy piss

There is a massive difference between organic tea and nettle tea, just like I'm sure the people in the tea growing regions would like to be permitted to buy tellies.



If anything what you are suggesting would work better with a global currency but with interest, inflation and speculation banned.

What happens if the window cleaner fancies a banana?

He has to clean windows on a boat to somewhere that grows bananas and then clean some windows there.

 

[cool herc]

Abolishing money altogether? That's a different point entirely to what happens to the dole system.

What happens if the window cleaner fancies a banana?

Community credits to replace the dole, if they do some community work they get non-cash credits to spend in the community in exchange for working, lots of stuff needs doing around most towns, and it would stop the need for stupid expensive council bills for cleaning bus stops and painting things nice.

 

[JimW]

I think the key point is the planned construction of a middle class and the awareness of what it entails to keep them afloat.

Yep, you get a clear sense of this in the debates they have here about increasing domestic demand so they can move away from export dependence and that warped relationship with the US (primarily) economy. It's obvious even to mainstream economists that the quickest way to do this would be to raise working class wages (even after a bit of an upturn recently still incredibly low even by SE Asian developmental economy standards IIRC) or deliver the social health care model they've been promising for a decade or more, but that doesn't suit the agenda of anyone bar the last few well-meaning reformists in the state apparatus, so what you get instead is this reliance on a white collar group in the cities (or petty bourgeois maybe more widely) that just might be open to a few very lucky working class people as the pressure valve. You might just make enough slaving in the service sector to go home and open a shop or hair salon (even though 99% of those will bomb); you might be the one office drone who gets promoted into something managerial. It's this lot that occupy far more of policy-maker's time and who the state seems most interested in serving/fostering.
What I'm not sure about is how far it's deliberate and how far it's a logic playing out that becomes self-reinforcing.

 

[cool herc]

There is a massive difference between organic tea and nettle tea, just like I'm sure the people in the tea growing regions would like to be permitted to buy tellies.



If anything what you are suggesting would work better with a global currency but with interest, inflation and speculation banned.

He has to clean windows on a boat to somewhere that grows bananas and then clean some windows there.

It would never work globally coz everyone would need to sign up and that will never happen. Thats why communism is never going to work.

 

[JimW]

I'm lagging well behind here

 

[fractionMan]

Community credits to replace the dole, if they do some community work they get non-cash credits to spend in the community in exchange for working, lots of stuff needs doing around most towns, and it would stop the need for stupid expensive council bills for cleaning bus stops and painting things nice.

Or you could just, you know, pay them for doing a job. Like cleaning bus stops or painting railings.

 

[cool herc]

Or you could just, you know, pay them for doing a job.

Then they wouldn't be on the dole.

 

[butchersapron]

Can the people playing lego go to the lego thread please.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Community credits to replace the dole, if they do some community work they get non-cash credits to spend in the community in exchange for working, lots of stuff needs doing around most towns, and it would stop the need for stupid expensive council bills for cleaning bus stops and painting things nice.

No potential for stigmatisation there then? And how many shops are likely to want to take 'community credits'? Not many, so no nice stuff for the poor folks.

It's a horrible idea tbf.

 

[fractionMan]

tbh, cool herc this is a bit of a derail. Fancy starting another thread? I was enjoying the first one about class for ages that was actually decent.

 

[cool herc]

Or you could just, you know, pay them for doing a job. Like cleaning bus stops or painting railings.

All those little jobs are council contracted, a simple job like cleaning a bus stop might cost £150 by the time its been invoiced and duplicate paperwork, stupid waste of money

 

[cool herc]

tbh, cool herc this is a bit of a derail. Fancy starting another thread? I was enjoying the first one about class for ages that was actually decent.

yeah ok sorry

 

[cool herc]

No potential for stigmatisation there then? And how many shops are likely to want to take 'community credits'? Not many, so no nice stuff for the poor folks.

It's a horrible idea tbf.

Want nice stuff need to earn it, no freebies in this life

 

[stuff_it]

It would never work globally coz everyone would need to sign up and that will never happen. Thats why communism is never going to work.

It wouldn't work locally as a replacement for money, as everyone would get fucked off with it sharpish.

 

[_angel_]

No, I mean abolishing money and having a labour credit exchange system. A window cleaner earns 3 point per house - he can exchange 10 credits for an hours babysitting, that kind of thing. Could extend to food and drink.

I think you're describing the LETS system??

 

[stuff_it]

I think you're describing the LETS system??

He is, but with compulsory abolishment of money to boot.