'Middle Class' it's basically just a construct isn't it...

[butchersapron]

Thread's gone the HP sauce route now. Pity.

 

[butchersapron]

Do you have any idea how many threads we've had that have been full of people saying, "But this is me, what class am I?" I think you'll find people are most likely fed up of answering it.

How about this? As a default, if you have to ask then you're probably lower middle.

Have you noticed it's always the posh kids going ooh do me, do me!

 

[danny la rouge]

Thread's gone the HP sauce route now. Pity.

Indeed.

 

[kabbes]

Have you noticed it's always the posh kids going ooh do me, do me!

With a hint of, "I'm totally outside the system, you'll never be able to categorise me."

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You agreed with me earlier about the existence of a middle class didn't you? Are you saying here just that a particular definition or usage is wrong or that idea full stop?

I said that I thought your definition only covered the top 10-15 percent. Normally speaking people talk about more people than that being m/c. But danny's post about how the upper classes are no longer the political elite, while very true, leaves the question of what to call those that are the political elite. To call them m/c seems odd.

 

[weltweit]

Why, aren't there enough class threads on Urban?

Every other thread seems to dissolve into class....

 

[butchersapron]

With a hint of, "I'm totally outside the system, you'll never be able to categorise me."

Yep, the atomising logic of class society at its most potent.

 

[danny la rouge]

With a hint of, "I'm totally outside the system, you'll never be able to categorise me."

We all like to think we're special. The misunderstanding, though, is that a class analysis is about calling individuals baddies or goodies. It isn't. It's about looking at what is wrong with society. Not what is wrong with weltweit.

 

[Santino]

Is there any useful definition or vocabulary for those people who are precariously middle class, i.e. don't have the networks and social capital to ride out economic downturns?

 

[kabbes]

Why, aren't there enough class threads on Urban?

Every other thread seems to dissolve into class....

That's because any time anybody wants to use a term as a shorthand for a whole mass of complex underlying relationships and issues, there's always a load of people who want the simplest possible explanation for what those complex underlying relationships resolve to. So, for example, rather than seeing the nature of society as being a dynamic system of broad interest-alignments and the power-relationships that exist to perpetuate these, they just want to know what label they should be placed under.

 

[danny la rouge]

Why, aren't there enough class threads on Urban?

Every other thread seems to dissolve into class....

That's because everything is about class. The trouble is, too many people think class is about balsamic vinegar vs mushy peas.

 

[Santino]

That's because any time anybody wants to use a term as a shorthand for a whole mass of complex underlying relationships and issues, there's always a load of people who want the simplest possible explanation for what those complex underlying relationships resolve to. So, for example, rather than seeing the nature of society as being a dynamic system of broad interest-alignments and the power-relationships that exist to perpetuate these, they just want to know what label they should be placed under.

Also people want to feel superior to other people.

 

[kabbes]

Also people want to feel superior to other people.

I know I do. But there's good reason for that.

 

[weltweit]

That's because everything is about class.

I just posted about Elvis Presley..

How is that about class?

 

[danny la rouge]

I just posted about Elvis Presley..

How is that about class?

White working class truck driver makes it big singing rhythm and blues he heard from his working class black neighbours?

 

[weltweit]

White working class truck driver makes it big singing rhythm and blues he heard from his working class black neighbours?

But my post about Elvis was just saying effectively - heck that is a good looking man

 

[butchersapron]

I just posted about Elvis Presley..

How is that about class?

100% about class - how much money did his record company make from him? What were the social effects of bringing music that was trad black w/c music to the attention of w/c white kids have globally? Effects of that are ongoing.

 

[stuff_it]

Do you have any idea how many threads we've had that have been full of people saying, "But this is me, what class am I?" I think you'll find people are most likely fed up of answering it.

How about this? As a default, if you have to ask then you're probably lower middle.

But isn't that more a set of attitudes and aspirations than anything else? This is what I'm saying, it's all bullshit really. There is a massive difference between someone wanting to better themselves educationally and career-wise than someone that say wants to do a degree so that they are better than people that haven't done one.

I'd say I'm definitely a borderline case so far as class is concerned as people see it, but this thread is more about how the government, banks, etc are trying to make people really feel that they are 'different' from each other when in fact that everyone but the rich are in fact struggling more and more.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'd say I'm definitely a borderline case so far as class is concerned as people see it, but this thread is more about how the government, banks, etc are trying to make people really feel that they are 'different' from each other when in fact that everyone but the rich are in fact struggling more and more.

This is a good point. Someone most would consider 'lower' middle or even in many cases middle middle has more interests in common with working class people than with the ruling classes, imo.

 

[danny la rouge]

But my post about Elvis was just saying effectively - heck that is a good looking man

He was. But look at the bigger picture.

 

[butchersapron]

But isn't that more a set of attitudes and aspirations than anything else? This is what I'm saying, it's all bullshit really. There is a massive difference between someone wanting to better themselves educationally and career-wise than someone that say wants to do a degree so that they are better than people that haven't done one.

I'd say I'm definitely a borderline case so far as class is concerned as people see it, but this thread is more about how the government, banks, etc are trying to make people really feel that they are 'different' from each other when in fact that everyone but the rich are in fact struggling more and more.

You mean by consistently denying that class society exists? That the class war is over? That to think is class terms is outdated and shows a poverty of aspiration? (Of course, all the while acting in the most nakedly class-war-like manner).

You seem a bit confused i have to say. It's quite simple really, the govt (i'll just use that term for now) wants you to think that class doesn't exist, in order so they can pursue class based policies.

 

[stuff_it]

You mean by consistently denying that class society exists? That the class war is over? That to think is class terms is outdated and shows a poverty of aspiration? (Of course, all the while acting in the most nakedly class-war-like manner).

You seem a bit confused i have to say. It's quite simple really, the govt (i'll just use that term for now) wants you to think that class doesn't exist, in order so they can pursue class based policies.

No, just that the boundaries have changed but it is in the ruling class's interests to keep this quiet/promote seperatism.

 

[butchersapron]

This is a good point. Someone most would consider 'lower' middle or even in many cases middle middle has more interests in common with working class people than with the ruling classes, imo.

Of course they do in the bigger picture and the longer term, but that doesn't mean that they don't have other interests in the short term - and that those interests may well be anti-w/c. You have to deal with and recognise this short term bit before you can get to the long term stage.

 

[danny la rouge]

You mean by consistently denying that class society exists? That the class war is over?

So often, people who say a class analysis is Old Fashioned think that the ones who have noticed the class war are the ones who declared it; they aren't, it was declared by the ruling class, and is being waged by them daily.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You mean by consistently denying that class society exists? That the class war is over? That to think is class terms is outdated and shows a poverty of aspiration? (Of course, all the while acting in the most nakedly class-war-like manner).

You seem a bit confused i have to say. It's quite simple really, the govt (i'll just use that term for now) wants you to think that class doesn't exist, in order so they can pursue class based policies.

It's important to draw the battlelines in the right places, though. You supported the student demos earlier this year, for instance, and many of those demonstrating were the middle classes of the future.

 

[danny la rouge]

No, just that the boundaries have changed but it is in the ruling class's interests to keep this quiet/promote seperatism.

It's in the ruling class' interests to maintain the confusion over what is meant by class. If we can all just buy basil-infused olive oil, it'll be OK.

 

[butchersapron]

No, just that the boundaries have changed but it is in the ruling class's interests to keep this quiet/promote seperatism.

The last three govts have all made it a point of public policy to deny that class exists. They want you to think as you do, but that we're all middle class (apart from a small unsaveable section of the old trad w/c) rather than all working class. They do not want you or anyone else to think in class terms.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Of course they do in the bigger picture and the longer term, but that doesn't mean that they don't have other interests in the short term - and that those interests may well be anti-w/c. You have to deal with and recognise this short term bit before you can get to the long term stage.

Well student tuition fees are looming large. I don't disagree that a lot of people can't see past their short-term interests, such as cheering as the housing crisis deepens. But the credit crunch has worried a lot of people - a lot of the same insufferably smug people who were congratulating themselves on how much their houses were worth.

 

[butchersapron]

It's important to draw the battlelines in the right places, though. You supported the student demos earlier this year, for instance, and many of those demonstrating were the middle classes of the future.

Of course it's important to try and analyse society and movement accurately. That should go without saying.

 

[stuff_it]

The last three govts have all made it a point of public policy to deny that class exists. They want you to think as you do, but that we're all middle class (apart from a small unsaveable section of the old trad w/c) rather than all working class. They do not want you or anyone else to think in class terms.

No, this is what they say, humans are notorious for not doing what they are told as they well know.

They want people to think that they can change class easily which is different, as it means that most people will put their energy towards 'bettering themselves' rather than paying attention to the stuff they hope to carry on doing with impunity for as long as possible.