Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency

[Silas Loom]

Okay, here’s my next doomed attempt at solutionising.

What sort of counselling is available to men who feel hurt and upset that their relationship has ended, and who are at risk of developing a violent obsession rooted in rejection? Could some sort of therapy that stops men from blaming and hating their former partners be made freely available, and could accessing that sort of therapy be normalised/socialised as a routine thing for men to do when getting over rejection?

 

[tardigrade]

I’d assumed you were a woman.

Other didn't. As if a woman couldn't be expected to hold such views.

 

[story]

Okay, here’s my next doomed attempt at solutionising.

What sort of counselling is available to men who feel hurt and upset that their relationship has ended, and who are at risk of developing a violent obsession rooted in rejection? Could some sort of therapy that stops men from blaming and hating their former partners be made freely available, and could accessing that sort of therapy be normalised/socialised as a routine thing for men to do when getting over rejection?

How likely is it that those men would seek or attend such therapy even if it were available?


Just yesterday I was advising a mate to leave his ex alone. He keeps contacting her because he feels like she doesn’t understand, hasn’t heard him, if she did she’d give him another chance etc.

I told him she needs to be given peace, leave her the fuck alone. He said yes, he understands, even agrees, but somehow he can’t leave it, feels overwhelmed, feels compelled, can’t help himself….

He’s been offered any amount of support. Keeps ducking it. Even while he recognises and accepts that he needs to fix up, he don’t have the balls or the tools for the work.

I’m still talking with him because he’s still talking with me.

What’s to be done?

And this is a bloke who recognises that he’s the problem.

 

[Serge Forward]

I'm not derailing, I'm genuinely trying to offer a solution. It's not a popular solution and never has been. But i don't see any other solutions talked about here, that could make an immediate difference. Even if just for a few women.

While I'm all for people knowing useful self defence and fighting skills, it's not a realistic solution for the wider society. Sure, such knowledge and the ability to extricate oneself from a threatening situation can help on an individual level in some circumstances but it completely misses the point. The problem is social and so the solution has to be society-wide. That's no mean feat because, unfortunately, we live in a society that ignores, excuses and often normalises misogyny and rarely takes violence against women seriously. This shit is bedded in as part and parcel of a patriarchal society.

I'm sure you mean well but you are derailing a bit here. Sure, self-defence etc may be useful on an individual level if someone is actually committed to learning that stuff (though why the hell should they have to?) but it's no panacea, and it takes no notice of the actual causes of violence against women and girls.

 

[Silas Loom]

How likely is it that those men would seek or attend such therapy even if it were available?


Just

If every single piece of male-targeted content they watch on YouTube is followed by videos of tough guy role models talking honestly and candidly about how post-dumping therapy helped them to stay mentally strong, why not?

E2A story just seen the rest of that post that you edited in - the suggestion above looks a bit flip in the context of your mate, but there’s still a place for media campaigns and social proof to lead people to do things.

 

[tardigrade]

Okay, here’s my next doomed attempt at solutionising.

What sort of counselling is available to men who feel hurt and upset that their relationship has ended, and who are at risk of developing a violent obsession rooted in rejection? Could some sort of therapy that stops men from blaming and hating their former partners be made freely available, and could accessing that sort of therapy be normalised/socialised as a routine thing for men to do when getting over rejection?

It's a good idea, but I wonder how many men would seek it out. Having said that, male suicide has been brought out into the open more, and men are more willing to talk about it, so attitudes are changing slightly.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Tosh.

That's utter bilge. You're assuming eg misaiming whereas a lot of the time it will be actually aiming that causes problems. Not to mention that American policing is in such a state because it is racist, sexist and classist. George Floyd, for example, not shot to death. Nor was Rodney King to name but two instances

look at how a traffic stop goes down in the US even if it's a white officer stopping a white middle class soccer mom ... then you'll see how weapon retention and out gunning drives US policing

look at how US Police officers interact with the public in tourist areas and then compare that how DPG or SFO/CTSFOs interact with the public in the UK even though they are tooled up...

 

[planetgeli]

Okay, here’s my next doomed attempt at solutionising.

What sort of counselling is available to men who feel hurt and upset that their relationship has ended, and who are at risk of developing a violent obsession rooted in rejection? Could some sort of therapy that stops men from blaming and hating their former partners be made freely available, and could accessing that sort of therapy be normalised/socialised as a routine thing for men to do when getting over rejection?

Horse bolted, gate shut etc. Things need to start much earlier and yes, it all involves the patriarchy.

Rejection? Men get rejected all the time for all sorts of reasons. The vast, vast majority (with admirable exceptions, I'm thinking that bloke who bulldozed an office after an unpaid salary or something) do not go smashing up their employer when sacked or failing an interview. Because this is seen as unacceptable.

Smashing up a woman? Well, she asked for it etc etc.

Work on this needs to start at, literal, infancy. Counselling a grown adult, too late.

 

[tardigrade]

If every single piece of male-targeted content they watch on YouTube is followed by videos of tough guy role models talking honestly and candidly about how post-dumping therapy helped them to stay mentally strong, why not?

I applaud men who have been open about their mental health issues, especially when they are in the public eye. It breaks down the barriers and leads to others knowing they're not alone.

 

[Silas Loom]

Horse bolted, gate shut etc. Things need to start much earlier and yes, it all involves the patriarchy.

Rejection? Men get rejected all the time for all sorts of reasons. The vast, vast majority (with admirable exceptions, I'm thinking that bloke who bulldozed an office after an unpaid salary or something) do not go smashing up their employer when sacked or failing an interview. Because this is seen as unacceptable.

Smashing up a woman? Well, she asked for it etc etc.

Work on this needs to start at, literal, infancy. Counselling a grown adult, too late.

Which is all why Jess Phillips is saying that education is key and even if it works, we can’t expect anything to change for 20 years. That’s a bit depressing.

There is perhaps some scope for people to change behaviours in response to changes in social norms, as with drink driving.

 

[story]

While I'm all for people knowing useful self defence and fighting skills, it's not a realistic solution for the wider society. Sure, such knowledge and the ability to extricate oneself from a threatening situation can help on an individual level in some circumstances but it completely misses the point. The problem is social and so the solution has to be society-wide. That's no mean feat because, unfortunately, we live in a society that ignores, excuses and often normalises misogyny and rarely takes violence against women seriously. This shit is bedded in as part and parcel of a patriarchal society.

I'm sure you mean well but you are derailing a bit here. Sure, self-defence etc may be useful on an individual level if someone is actually committed to learning that stuff (though why the hell should they have to?) but it's no panacea, and it takes no notice of the actual causes of violence against women and girls.

This is the point.

One person pushing back against one person doesn’t address the systemic issue.

For the larger issue to be addressed, everyone, the entirety of us, needs to be active.

So when people say “it’s not me that the problem…. I don’t know anyone who behaves that way…” that too becomes part of the problem.

(Setting aside the issue of “yes, you probably are… yes, you probably do….”)

 

[existentialist]

I have no faith in the police, but they do need training, much more training to recognise the signs of bullying and coercive behaviour.

Training would be a start, but what it REALLY needs is a ground-up culture change. I think there will be a lot of institutional resistance to that, but one way or another, it has to happen.

 

[story]

If every single piece of male-targeted content they watch on YouTube is followed by videos of tough guy role models talking honestly and candidly about how post-dumping therapy helped them to stay mentally strong, why not?

It’s true that I’ve seen men /people saying “ wow, yes, me too” etc but how do we make that generally effective, amongst those who don’t have the wit or the witness to seek help for th3,selv3s?

 

[InArduisFouette]

Okay, here’s my next doomed attempt at solutionising.

What sort of counselling is available to men who feel hurt and upset that their relationship has ended, and who are at risk of developing a violent obsession rooted in rejection? Could some sort of therapy that stops men from blaming and hating their former partners be made freely available, and could accessing that sort of therapy be normalised/socialised as a routine thing for men to do when getting over rejection?

What we do | Respect

We advance best practice on work with domestic abuse perpetrators, male victims and young people who use violence and abuse

www.respect.org.uk

Respect offers services aimed towards male victims of DV ( as Refuge/ Woman's Aid / various local organisations etc have the 'traditional' battered wives and young children sector fairly well covered off

Respect also works with DV perpetrators and young people at risk of becoming DV perpetrators

the rise of the EAP ( employee assistance program) and workplace funded short course counselling is also something which is there for the taking, Trades unions have a role in this ( along with Mental health First aid provision and where relevant to Setting TRiM)

 

[story]

Horse bolted, gate shut etc. Things need to start much earlier and yes, it all involves the patriarchy.

Rejection? Men get rejected all the time for all sorts of reasons. The vast, vast majority (with admirable exceptions, I'm thinking that bloke who bulldozed an office after an unpaid salary or something) do not go smashing up their employer when sacked or failing an interview. Because this is seen as unacceptable.

Smashing up a woman? Well, she asked for it etc etc.

Work on this needs to start at, literal, infancy. Counselling a grown adult, too late.

Can we not work at both ends?

 

[story]

Which is all why Jess Phillips is saying that education is key and even if it works, we can’t expect anything to change for 20 years. That’s a bit depressing.

There is perhaps some scope for people to change behaviours in response to changes in social norms, as with drink driving.

The only hope I have is that we’re seeing the desperate scramblings of something that is starting to crumble.

 

[Silas Loom]

Training would be a start, but what it REALLY needs is a ground-up culture change. I think there will be a lot of institutional resistance to that, but one way or another, it has to happen.

I think that the police are already on that journey. It started under May and it survived successive Home Secretaries who were less interested in VAWG. That report wouldn’t have been produced if the need for the culture change you seek wasn’t already accepted by senior officers,

 

[tardigrade]

Horse bolted, gate shut etc. Things need to start much earlier and yes, it all involves the patriarchy.

Rejection? Men get rejected all the time for all sorts of reasons. The vast, vast majority (with admirable exceptions, I'm thinking that bloke who bulldozed an office after an unpaid salary or something) do not go smashing up their employer when sacked or failing an interview. Because this is seen as unacceptable.

Smashing up a woman? Well, she asked for it etc etc.

Work on this needs to start at, literal, infancy. Counselling a grown adult, too late.

It's a start. Stalking an ex is a big problem, and anything that can help is worth it, in my opinion.
I was stalked many years ago and it was a horrendous experience. I feared for my life every day, as he threatened more than once to kill me. The police did nothing. It took another ex-boyfriend to come and stay with me to end it. Once he realised another man was with me, he stopped. Imagine what that did to my self-esteem. To have another man solve the problem.

 

[InArduisFouette]

I applaud men who have been open about their mental health issues, especially when they are in the public eye. It breaks down the barriers and leads to others knowing they're not alone.

while not directly to do with DV Ben Pearson ( ex WYP 'Police Interceptor' ) has been quite good in opening the discussion within some of the 'petrol head' spaces , ben's personal experience is more to do with PTSD , although asa Bobby he's seen and dealth with all kinds of stuff includin DV and VAWG ...

 

[existentialist]

Okay, here’s my next doomed attempt at solutionising.

What sort of counselling is available to men who feel hurt and upset that their relationship has ended, and who are at risk of developing a violent obsession rooted in rejection? Could some sort of therapy that stops men from blaming and hating their former partners be made freely available, and could accessing that sort of therapy be normalised/socialised as a routine thing for men to do when getting over rejection?

Any competent therapist could deal with stuff like that. And, if it were more widely available, it could make a bit of a difference in the "grey area" where men in that situation could either come to some kind of acceptance OR go the other way. But for a lot of men in that situation, they wouldn't even perceive there to be a problem - "that woman rejected me, so I am going to get revenge" would be as far as their thinking went. Because that's where we need the NEXT stage - getting to boys at an early stage and educating that attitude away.

We could keep taking short-term solutions for the next hundred years, and be no further on. The only thing that is going to make fundamental change is going to take a lot longer than, say, the term of a government to achieve, and I suspect that's one of the reasons it doesn't get done - the wins don't come quickly enough for the establishment to feel it's worthwhile doing. Which probably tells you quite a lot about how seriously it takes the problem

 

[Cloo]

Exactly. If a man suddenly decides to inflict violence on us, fighting back is not going to make much difference, especially those of us who are considerably smaller than most men. The size thing makes you feel quite vulnerable, especially as you get older. Besides, just no. We have the right to expect a life without violence in it. As a bare minimum.

Yeah, I am 5ft 1. Unless I get a lucky strike on his eyes or balls, there is no way on earth I could overpower even a totally average sized bloke.

Also see how good being able to fight has been a solution for men being violent towards one another.

I think a big problem about VAWG is those social narratives again. There is a very strong narrative around us that women are liars and manipulators. I think it comes from this idea that 'women are physically weaker, therefore their "weapon" is lies and manipulation' maybe because patriarchal men think that's how they'd act if they were physically weak. You see it every time a woman makes an allegation of abuse and the conversation around it is 'What does she have against him?' 'What is she trying to get out of this?' 'Was she drunk/on drugs?' 'Look at what she was wearing that night...'

It's ridiculous in this day and age that we still have people thinking a woman has made false abuse claims for 'fame' - can anyone name a woman who has become famous and founded her career on a false assault allegation?

But this attitude runs deep and you see it in law enforcement with women too often still treated like they are being lying whores who are out to get someone or something. Yet no one seems to talk about how many men have lied and manipulated their way out of rape charges 'Oh, I'm a family man, I couldn't do such a thing, please don't tear my family apart over these horrible allegations' 'He's a young man with a bright future, don't destroy it', 'I'm a respectable married man, she's just silly girl who puts bikini shots all over her instagram, of course she's just after attention'. People talk about men whose lives are destroyed by false allegations but they never wonder how that number compares to how many rapists are wondering around scot free because no one believed their victims.

 

[smokedout]

I think a big part of thinking about this involves a quite uncomfortable recognition of just how much violence is embedded within the concept of masculinity and how that impacts on culture and society. Probably half of culture and the majority of culture aimed at boys/young men glorifies violence and teaches them that it is a way to get what you want and achieve status in society. And often it's not just what society perceives as 'good' violence - beating up criminals and winning wars - but anti-heroes whose casual and often horrific violence is presented as part of their appeal.

Violence is entertainment in our culture and it seems naive to think that raising boys to believe that violence is good/heroic/funny even will produce well rounded men who will instinctively know where to draw that moral line. Some might, most might, it's part of growing up, but a lot won't. And this is compounded by the fact we live in a system which needs to produce violent men, which is probably why so much of culture and politics is invested in it.

And this isn't just a kids today type problem that banning violent video games or something will solve. All societies based on inequality, hierarchy, conquest and imperialism have needed violence and that has always been reflected in culture. The idea that that violence will stop, just where you want it to, doesn't strike me as very realistic. We need to really interrogate the role of violence is society and how that informs even more positive manifestations of masculinity and what men are expected to be.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

you are a troll ,

ridiculous ideas which are proven not work are open for ridicule.

And you're a fucking bully. Just give it a rest, will you.

 

[tardigrade]

We are constantly bombarded with images of how women and men should 'be'. In the media, on tv, in films etc. There is little accountability in these professions. This is a big part of the problem because they further entrench outdated beliefs.

 

[ice-is-forming]

Obviously I get the much bigger picture in all its complexity.. so don't come at me, but while self defence is being mentioned l wanted to add that good womens self defence is 90% situational awareness and de-escalation techniques. 10% slapping people in the eardrums, breaking grips and running loudly away.

There's data that evidences that in both one off random, and more relational encounters - people who appear less confident are picked out as 'victims' by perpetrators. Men as well as women.

Sometimes the right type of self defence class can help with exuding this confidence. It's obviously not a long term solution, but whilst we wait.. this is what I've taught many women including my daughter and daughters in law, and im sure I'll be teaching it to my granddaughter too- because the change we need will only happen over multiple generations.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Training would be a start, but what it REALLY needs is a ground-up culture change. I think there will be a lot of institutional resistance to that, but one way or another, it has to happen.

institutions change slowly and senior leadership changes slower especially when you look at the police / Fire Service / Military - as Very senior officers were able to stay in role well past the ages that most of the rank and file including Superintendents / 'Brigade Manager' / Field Grade officers had retired

the last of the boomers are turning 60 in the next year or so (if you take 1965 as the cut off) and many early Gen X folk ( 1965 to mid 1970s) had the same same 'deal' as boomers when it comes to education, careers and housing affordability ... so some of the bigger changes will come when the late X / Early Millenials are the Chief Officers across the board. However, there is of course the disconnect from the early / accelerated promoters in the Police, FRS and to some extent the NHS with the rank and file

 

[InArduisFouette]

Obviously I get the much bigger picture in all its complexity.. so don't come at me, but while self defence is being mentioned l wanted to add that good womens self defence is 90% situational awareness and de-escalation techniques. 10% slapping people in the eardrums, breaking grips and running loudly away.

There's data that evidences that in both one off random, and more relational encounters - people who appear less confident are picked out as 'victims' by perpetrators. Men as well as women.

Sometimes the right type of self defence class can help with exuding this confidence. It's obviously not a long term solution, but whilst we wait.. this is what I've taught many women including my daughter and daughters in law, and im sure I'll be teaching it to my granddaughter too- because the change we need will only happen over multiple generations.

this is a valid point

also born out by the experiences of late diagnosied Autists, and those who come out as One or more of LGBTQ+ in adult life as opposed to asa teen / student - there is evidence of them being treated differently and held to differing standards by teachers / managers even when not visibly different in themselves and their presentation

 

[InArduisFouette]

And you're a fucking bully. Just give it a rest, will you.

oh do boor off with your ridiculously poor takes

 

[ice-is-forming]

First they came for the boomers.

 

[planetgeli]

Can we not work at both ends?

Of course we can try. But, working with traumatised kids, 12-16, I can tell you that that is already largely too late. I try for a living. It's a thankless task.

But I didn't pose a binary. I just mentioned tackling the root, which is the best way to really achieve things IMO.