Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency

[story]

The fact that they end their life in such a way that they know, their partner, ex etc. will find them is so fucked up. The very worst is when they take their children with them. That is the ultimate in getting revenge, and shows how much they cared about their kids in the first place.

Are family annihilators included in the suicide stats? As a lumped in group or as a subset?

What proportion of suicides are family annihilators? It can’t be a big number.

 

[tardigrade]

Men do feel desperate, and in many cases legitimately so. And they struggle alone with that.
At least women (on the whole) have some kind of sorority.


Please let’s try to push this discussion on to something useful.

I don’t know how, but let’s try not to get stuck.

I hear you, and yes men get so desperate they take desperate measures, but to involve children is just unfathomable to me.

 

[planetgeli]

One of the effects of the patriarchy is that men believe their feelings are paramount. Another is that they do not know how to navigate their own despair, because it’s habitually alleviated by all sorts of sops and soma meted out by womenfolk. Plus all the toxic bullshit about “be a man, suck it up” etc.


NAMNAW obvs.

Totally agree. And I'm not trying to make this thread into 'aren't men awful'. But, as noted, we can't begin to change this without (somehow) altering patriarchal attitudes. You say, "men believe their feelings are paramount' and ' they don't know how (for various reasons) to navigate their despair'.

Both true. I just tend to think the root cause begins with addressing the first of your assertions if we are trying to stop VAWG. Then we can start to work on the second one.

Men do feel desperate, and in many cases legitimately so. And they struggle alone with that.
At least women (on the whole) have some kind of sorority.

Not so sure about this bit. Every club is a men's club and the usual way things go are men still saying terrible things about women left to their own devices. Because A) (men's feelings are paramount) above.

 

[story]

The sorority thing :
On the whole, when women who are strangers approach each other they allow space and time to each other.
When men who are strangers approach each other they are sizing each other up for competition.

Obviously this is a gross generalisation.

And it’s an artefact if the patriarchy anyway : women see each other as allies exactly because men are dangerous; men see each other as competition for the same reason.

NAMNAW obvs

But that’s an aside really.

I’m trying to find a way into a useful discussion about what can be usefully done, by each of us as individuals in our own life, to start addressing the problem and begin the work of changing things.

Parents need to be raising their children mindfully. Teachers have to carry some of the load too. The media has to fix up. Etc

What about single men and women, childless people, older people, those who don’t understand or recognise what the patriarchy is.

I think we do need to be thinking about what kabbes said : we do evil unawares. Our unawareness is a large part of the problem.



I need to think and consider my own behaviour. How do I support the problem? What do I do that allows things to remain the same? How can I usefully change or challenge?

I’ve tried calling shit out and ended up being sidelined. I’ve tried instigating conversations but find them petering out or being one sided. The only real conversations I’m having are with people I’m in agreement with, and even when we try to identify behaviour in our self/ each other that needs attention we end up saying shit like “yeah but how do we expand this conversation? We’re doing our best but how is it helping?”

It’s like holding a moment of silence of Gaza. What good does it do?


What can we usefully do?

 

[story]

What about the men on here who don’t even bother reading threads like this.
They’re right here and presumably find these threads not worth bothering with. Are they part of the problem too? How do we draw them into the conversation?

 

[existentialist]

There is something desperately wrong with us - us, all of us, our society, our civilisation - if the only way some men feel heard is by these means.

Yeah, that. I've met too many men who were locked into a cycle of bottling up ever increasingly desperate feelings, for whom the idea of actually, you know, talking to someone about those feelings was...well, non-existent. To some extent, I wonder if we are still reaping some intergenerational trauma from WWII, with a classic post-trauma symptom being to button it up and just Not Talk About It.

 

[story]

I’m certain that we are existentialist

And WW1 and all the rest of it too.

 

[tardigrade]

What about the men on here who don’t even bother reading threads like this.
They’re right here and presumably find these threads not worth bothering with. Are they part of the problem too? How do we draw them into the conversation?

Could a new thread be started asking men for their views on this? It'd be interesting to get their viewpoint.

 

[story]

Could a new thread be started asking men for their views on this? It'd be interesting to get their viewpoint.

It would indeed.

We’ve tried several threads inviting men to talk about their experience of being under the cosh of the patriarchy, their feelings about misogyny, etc but they don’t get any traffic and sink without trace.

 

[tardigrade]

It would indeed.

We’ve tried several threads inviting men to talk about their experience of being under the cosh of the patriarchy, their feelings about misogyny, etc but they don’t get any traffic and sink without trace.

That's disappointing. They have a chance to put their views across, especially in terms of how attitudes could change. And give some examples of their own experiences, in regards to how women are treated.

 

[planetgeli]

What can we usefully do?

Talk.

And it’s an artefact if the patriarchy anyway : women see each other as allies exactly because men are dangerous; men see each other as competition for the same reason.

If 'for the same reason' you mean the patriarchy, yes.

NAMNAW obvs

But that’s an aside really.

As another aside, I never use the NAM thing. I'm a man (allegedly) and it just sounds wanky coming from a bloke (to me). "Not my fault" (defensive mode). Etc. However close to the truth it is. But, just an aside.

I’m trying to find a way into a useful discussion about what can be usefully done, by each of us as individuals in our own life, to start addressing the problem and begin the work of changing things.

Parents need to be raising their children mindfully. Teachers have to carry some of the load too. The media has to fix up. Etc

Completely. Teachers have to do a bit more than carry some of the load. The Education needs fixing. All sorts of levels. And, it even starts before that. As you say about parenting mindfully. The media? Pfft. Good luck with that. We'd have to wait for them to catch up.

What about single men and women, childless people, older people, those who don’t understand or recognise what the patriarchy is

Good question. Talk to them.

I think we do need to be thinking about what @kabess said : we do evil unawares. Our unawareness is a large part of the problem.

Yes. But are we the ones perpetrating DV (and V) on women? Awareness is key. Our continued awareness is vital. But the problem is with those with no awareness, be that through wilful, beneficial ignorance or just 'the patriarchy'.

I need to think and consider my own behaviour. How do I support the problem? What do I do that allows things to remain the same? How can I usefully change or challenge?

I’ve tried calling shit out and ended up being sidelined. I’ve tried instigating conversations but find them petering out or being one sided.

We've all been there.

Keep talking, keep challenging. What else can we do? Bottom up approach. It ain't never gonna come from the top. And you (I, we) won't see the results in our lifetime.

Bit depressing but this is what it is. The patriarchy won't fall in a day.

 

[planetgeli]

And I mean, meanwhile, if Owen Jones is right, Asama Begum, suspended last night for opposing the Government on the 2 child benefit cap, says she was threatened by the Labour Whips they would pull support for DV legislation if she didn't toe the party line on last night's vote.

So where do you start? Not there.

Bottom up. Talk. Long process.

 

[UrbaneFox]

It would indeed.

We’ve tried several threads inviting men to talk about their experience of being under the cosh of the patriarchy, their feelings about misogyny, etc but they don’t get any traffic and sink without trace.

Could perhaps try it on other sites, i.e. not Urban75.

I have no idea where.

 

[Derek S-H]

I forgot to say something earlier: an academic study of gender relations once employed two actors and used hidden cameras to film the public's reaction to a couple arguing.

When the man was verbally abusive to the woman and she was "crying", quite a few people intervened to check that she was okay. But when the woman was abusive to the man, no one intervened on his behalf.

I suppose this ties into the power of social conditioning that we've been discussing: that women are more vulnerable than men and men are expected to be strong at all times. It's all bollocks - men are emotional beings once they let their guard down and some women are very strong physically.

The recent GE returned a record number of female MP's to Parliament and these are women who have power and influence, so I hope they use these to push for change. And of course it will take time, but better to take small steps forward than not bother at all.

 

[Derek S-H]

tardigrade - I'm also a new Member and don't have the privileges to write a PM to you.

But I just wanted to say that I've been very unhappy at the way one Member has treated you on this Thread. It doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong; I think it's important that people are mindful at how much women's voices are either marginalised or ignored completely, and I'm glad you've decided to carry on speaking the truth of your experiences.

 

[tardigrade]

tardigrade - I'm also a new Member and don't have the privileges to write a PM to you.

But I just wanted to say that I've been very unhappy at the way one Member has treated you on this Thread. It doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong; I think it's important that people are mindful at how much women's voices are either marginalised or ignored completely, and I'm glad you've decided to carry on speaking the truth of your experiences.

Thank you Derek. To be honest, I woke up this morning and decided not to post on this forum anymore. It isn't just in this thread that I've been made to feel unwelcome (not by everybody). The 'Shoplifting on the Rise' thread also erupted into insults and ridicule. The same poster from here came at me in that thread, along with a couple of others. The result was that one long standing member has left the forum for a while.

I think the problem is one that most forums tend to have. Certain members, who have been around for a while, jump on newbies when their views are challenged. They'll make unfounded accusations, and just generally be aggressive and bullying. This is in the hope that the newbie will leave. Then they can feel a sense of power, that they made this happen. It's all rather childish and pathetic.

Due to your kind words and other members being more friendly, I'll stay. I hope you're not subjected to the same vitriol.

 

[tardigrade]

I forgot to say something earlier: an academic study of gender relations once employed two actors and used hidden cameras to film the public's reaction to a couple arguing.

When the man was verbally abusive to the woman and she was "crying", quite a few people intervened to check that she was okay. But when the woman was abusive to the man, no one intervened on his behalf.

I suppose this ties into the power of social conditioning that we've been discussing: that women are more vulnerable than men and men are expected to be strong at all times. It's all bollocks - men are emotional beings once they let their guard down and some women are very strong physically.

The recent GE returned a record number of female MP's to Parliament and these are women who have power and influence, so I hope they use these to push for change. And of course it will take time, but better to take small steps forward than not bother at all.

I watched a video on a news site. It showed a couple sat in an airport lounge. The woman was practically screaming at the man, using expletives and calling him useless, pathetic etc. Despite several people sat close by and lots of people passing them, no one intervened for well over five minutes. Eventually a security guard approached and took the man to one side. It was awful to watch and listen. The poor guy looked so brow-beaten.
I just wonder if, as in the experiment you mention, whether it would have been different the other way round.

 

[tardigrade]

I don't have children, but I was wondering what other members would do/have done to encourage their child/children not to follow the stereotypical roles that we are given from a very early age?

 

[Silas Loom]

I don't have children, but I was wondering what other members would do/have done to encourage their child/children not to follow the stereotypical roles that we are given from a very early age?

In retrospect, we should have denied them all access to television, books and films. Oh, and probably other children, so school would have been out too.

 

[tardigrade]

In retrospect, we should have denied them all access to television, books and films. Oh, and probably other children, so school would have been out too.

Why would you have denied them access to other children?

 

[Silas Loom]

Why would you have denied them access to other children?

Because children take their social cues from the peers as much as, if not more than, their parents. There’s a limit to what one can do as a parent.

We weren’t brutal enough to refuse to buy pink princess tat when it was demanded with such fervour, but who is?

 

[tardigrade]

Because children take their social cues from the peers as much as, if not more than, their parents. There’s a limit to what one can do as a parent.

True, but I think that's a little extreme, not to let them have friends. If I had children, I would home school them, and get in touch with other parents who were doing the same. Then the children could mix with each other, without all the outside influences that are so damaging. Of course, that's assuming the other parents are trying to do the same for their kids!

 

[Sue]

It's the men I feel sorry for in all this.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

True, but I think that's a little extreme, not to let them have friends. If I had children, I would home school them, and get in touch with other parents who were doing the same. Then the children could mix with each other, without all the outside influences that are so damaging. Of course, that's assuming the other parents are trying to do the same for their kids!

I think mixing with a wide variety of other children is important. My kids went to ordinary schools, clubs, groups, etc so that they were exposed to all sorts of influences and opinions, whilst being brought up with the confidence to question everything.

 

[krtek a houby]

It's the men I feel sorry for in all this.

Why feel sorry for them? Some will troll because they are not comfortable with asking themselves hard questions, and some will sit things out because am guessing they dont wish to divert a serious topic... but whatever their reasons, its down to them...

 

[kabbes]

“What can we do?” is always a fascinating question, when it comes to social issues. There are so many dimensions to it — do you mean individually, familiarly, communally or socially? Within the bounds of existing common sense, or radically opposing it? Are you seeking immediate payoff or long-term effects? To protect the self or to enact real change? Are you willing to challenge your own actions and beliefs, or only other people’s? How much are you willing to do? How unpopular are you willing to be?

 

[Sue]

Why feel sorry for them? Some will troll because they are not comfortable with asking themselves hard questions, and some will sit things out because am guessing they dont wish to divert a serious topic... but whatever their reasons, its down to them...

Whoosh.

 

[Pickman's model]

True, but I think that's a little extreme, not to let them have friends. If I had children, I would home school them, and get in touch with other parents who were doing the same. Then the children could mix with each other, without all the outside influences that are so damaging. Of course, that's assuming the other parents are trying to do the same for their kids!

So you'd set up your own school?

 

[Red Cat]

True, but I think that's a little extreme, not to let them have friends. If I had children, I would home school them, and get in touch with other parents who were doing the same. Then the children could mix with each other, without all the outside influences that are so damaging. Of course, that's assuming the other parents are trying to do the same for their kids!

What outside influences? Any group is a social group, there is no outside.

Children police others behaviour very early on, it's why they're often described as cruel. Socialisation isn't something that is done to children, they observe and mimic and internalise, its a dynamic process. My experience as an adult is most people conform to the group over and above anything else. Those that don't are bullied in some way.

 

[Pickman's model]

What outside influences? Any group is a social group, there is no outside.

Children police others behaviour very early on, it's why they're often described as cruel. Socialisation isn't something that is done to children, they observe and mimic and internalise, its a dynamic process. My experience as an adult is most people conform to the group over and above anything else. Those that don't are bullied in some way.

Even many of those who conform are bullied