Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency

[purenarcotic]

There already are specialist services for male abusers. Respect is the national one. Some local areas have trialled putting men on programmes instead of going to court, social services refer men into programmes… there isn’t a great deal of evidence that says they work on a long term basis unfortunately. But I’m all for them, as long as victims services are not cut in order to fund them as for a (very) small group they do work.

 

[ice-is-forming]

We have them here too- it's often really difficult to find counsellors who want to work with this group - they often seem to be viewed as 'guilty by association ' just by working in that sector

 

[purenarcotic]

Respect | Home - Respect are the national leaders in working with abusers. They work closely with VAWG services and they are the only accredited programmes I would recommend. So another practical thing you can do; support these guys innit.

 

[Silas Loom]

Respect | Home - Respect are the national leaders in working with abusers. They work closely with VAWG services and they are the only accredited programmes I would recommend. So another practical thing you can do; support these guys innit.

What do you reckon they would say about packages of support aimed at men who aren’t (yet) abusers but who are struggling with resentment and rejection or intrusive thoughts related to an ex?

 

[emanymton]

It's a good idea, but I wonder how many men would seek it out. Having said that, male suicide has been brought out into the open more, and men are more willing to talk about it, so attitudes are changing slightly.

Just before we go down the avenue of taking about suicide as a uniquely male issue.

Across most societies men and women attempt suicide at roughly equal rates. The suicide rates look higher for men because the methods they tend to choose mean they are more likely to be successful in the attempt.

 

[story]

There already are specialist services for male abusers. Respect is the national one. Some local areas have trialled putting men on programmes instead of going to court, social services refer men into programmes… there isn’t a great deal of evidence that says they work on a long term basis unfortunately. But I’m all for them, as long as victims services are not cut in order to fund them as for a (very) small group they do work.

Part of the problem I reckon is that even those who know they’re a problem (like my mate) and those who attend specialist services….

They live and exist in the warm comforting waters of the patriarchy. So they need the wherewithal not only to fix themselves but also to stand up against the system, recognise it, work to pull it down, be an ally to those under the cosh…

How likely is it for someone who doesn’t see how they’ve been brutalised and conditioned by the system, who then goes on to acknowledge that they have been an aggressor, then does their best to fix up, and then gets tipped back into the place where their previous behaviour was sanctioned…L how likely is it that they’ll then become a warrior for peace?


I was at a party the other day and listening in to a conversation between young women and one of their boyfriends (I’m about twice their age). They were lamenting the patriarchy the young fella said “I’m an ally aren’t I GF? I let her talk over me all the time…”. None of the youngsters noticed or commented on this oddness, instead they seemed to congratulate him.


It goes unnoticed. These are microaggrsssions.

The young man who does the therapy. He has to be pretty extraordinary to come out and be completely aware of and immune to the bullshit.

 

[ice-is-forming]

I don't know if you have government advertising about this in the UK.

There's some really quite triggering ones here in Aus. These ones aren't.

 

[Dystopiary]

Disabled women are much more likely to experience domestic abuse, and they're often less likely to be able to leave the situation or find help.

I'm concerned this is only going to get worse as poverty grows, and also because of the increasingly shit benefits solution, which smokedout mentioned here, and the erosion of other services.

People with disabilities are often in particularly vulnerable circumstances. Certain disabilities, particularly physical disabilities, may decrease their ability to physically defend themselves and escape from abuse. Other disabilities can limit a person’s ability to understand and recognise potential signs of abuse.

Some disabilities can create social isolation via exclusion due to physical and environmental inaccessibility or via stigma discrimination in social activities. Therefore, many people with disabilities are left with a much smaller support network than those people without a disability.

Disability & Domestic Abuse - Ann Craft Trust

 

[tardigrade]

Just before we go down the avenue of taking about suicide as a uniquely male issue.

Across most societies men and women attempt suicide at roughly equal rates. The suicide rates look higher for men because the methods they tend to choose mean they are more likely to be successful in the attempt.

Oh I agree, I wasn't saying that men are more likely to end their lives. It was a response to another post about how counseling could reduce the numbers of men who stalk their ex partners.

 

[purenarcotic]

One of the particular barriers to leaving for disabled women is who will provide their care. What do you do when your abuser is your carer? There are only two fully disabled access refuge spaces across the UK. Two. I used to work for the service that provided one of them. Young women are forced to go into care homes for the elderly (this isn’t actually an issue exclusive to DV, many young disabled people end up in these situations). It’s a mess.

 

[ice-is-forming]

Just before we go down the avenue of taking about suicide as a uniquely male issue.

Across most societies men and women attempt suicide at roughly equal rates. The suicide rates look higher for men because the methods they tend to choose mean they are more likely to be successful in the attempt.

Not to derail but, male suicide tends to be - I can't think of a kinder way of putting it- thoughtless towards women a lot of the time. Thoughtless about things like being found in the family home by their mother, partner or children - this in turn leads to a whole level of complexity, trauma and practical problems. I don't know why this is- but I've been thinking about it a lot because I see it so often - and all I've come up with is a sense of privilege. I'm sorry if that doesn't come across properly. No offence intended - but it's a fact that it happens, and is likely part of the whole attitude.

 

[emanymton]

Not to derail but, male suicide tends to be - I can't think of a kinder way of putting it- thoughtless towards women a lot of the time. Thoughtless about things like being found in the family home by their mother, partner or children - this in turn leads to a whole level of complexity, trauma and practical problems. I don't know why this is- but I've been thinking about it a lot because I see it so often - and all I've come up with is a sense of privilege. I'm sorry if that doesn't come across properly. No offence intended - but it's a fact that it happens, and is likely part of the whole attitude.

The threat of suicide is a common controling tactic as well, although I don't know how gender specific that is.

 

[ice-is-forming]

The threat of suicide is a common controling tactic as well, although I don't know how gender specific that is.

Oh very much so yes, and even suicide as the final act of violence- when the perpetrator has finally been brought to court after continuous araingments- only for the news to come through to the waiting survivor, that he's escaped a trial because he's just died by suicide.

 

[tardigrade]

The threat of suicide is a common controling tactic as well, although I don't know how gender specific that is.

Absolutely! I was given the choice of either being responsible for my ex's suicide or staying with him. It's such a common ruse to keep women in a situation they want to escape. I got past the point of caring and told him to go do it. I knew he wouldn't and he didn't.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Just before we go down the avenue of taking about suicide as a uniquely male issue.

Across most societies men and women attempt suicide at roughly equal rates. The suicide rates look higher for men because the methods they tend to choose mean they are more likely to be successful in the attempt.

They are are also less likely to have any input from services before being found dead.

but yes Men do tend to opt for methods which are more likely result i na fatal outcome especially if not found before or during the act as it tends to be Major Trauma as the chosen method unless someone has occupational access to drugs / chemicals ( one of the reasons Vets and Dentists are seen as very high risk - as Hospital Doctors don't have as easy access to drugs and GPs ordering the relevant drugs would likely arouse suspicion )

 

[tardigrade]

One of my mum's friends had her violent husband end his own life, because she left him and he couldn't find her to force her to come back. He even came round to our house trying to find her. She went on to live a much happier life.

 

[InArduisFouette]

What do you reckon they would say about packages of support aimed at men who aren’t (yet) abusers but who are struggling with resentment and rejection or intrusive thoughts related to an ex?

I suspect they would say it's an area they would love to get involved with subject to funding and staffing ...

 

[InArduisFouette]

Oh very much so yes, and even suicide as the final act of violence- when the perpetrator has finally been brought to court after continuous araingments- only for the news to come through to the waiting survivor, that he's escaped a trial because he's just died by suicide.

it's control , for some abusers it;s the one controlling thing left for them to do. especially if the abuse they are alleged to have perpetrated is going to get them labelled as a nonce as well as a wife-beater if they are sent down

 

[emanymton]

Absolutely! I was given the choice of either being responsible for my ex's suicide or staying with him. It's such a common ruse to keep women in a situation they want to escape. I got past the point of caring and told him to go do it. I knew he wouldn't and he didn't.

I'm glad it worked out for her, and I probably shouldn't say this but good on her for not giving a shit.

 

[story]

A mate of mine was trying to leave an abusive relationship. When she went in to get some of her stuff, at a time when it was arranged that he wouldn’t be there, she found that he’d hanged himself with the belt from her dressing gown, using her dressing table chair. It absolutely was an act of violence towards her as well as himself. She has never properly recovered from this.

I spoke with a man friend who was feeling suicidal. He said “I don’t want to die but I want to kill myself, I want her to know how bad she’s making me feel.” He didn’t do it thank god. And that wasn’t even an “abusive” relationship.

One of the effects of the patriarchy is that men believe their feelings are paramount. Another is that they do not know how to navigate their own despair, because it’s habitually alleviated by all sorts of sops and soma meted out by womenfolk. Plus all the toxic bullshit about “be a man, suck it up” etc.


NAMNAW obvs.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

A mate of mine was trying to leave an abusive relationship. When she went in to get some of her stuff, at a time when it was arranged that he wouldn’t be there, she found that he’d hanged himself with the belt from her dressing gown, using her dressing table chair. It absolutely was an act of violence towards her as well as himself. She has never properly recovered from this.

Jesus, how devastating.

 

[planetgeli]

Jesus, how devastating.

I know three stories like this, so I think it's probably really very common.

1) Friend in Portugal found her partner in almost identical situation as to that described by story

2) My b-i-l, after leaving my sister (well, she literally ran from him) got a new gf, things didn't work out, and he hanged himself from the balcony outside her flat.

3) In a way, the best one. I was once, oh dunno the name for it, last person to see someone alive, because opening my mate's paper shop as a favour one Saturday a regular came in and bought his copy of The Times. Went home, read it (presumably), then hanged himself from a tree in the garden so wife would see it when she drew the curtains. He was a dentist, she'd refused to remortgage the house to raise money to expand his surgery.

The best? Why? Look, I know it's not great, in fact it's fucking gross. But anyone remember when the BNP membership list was hacked and released? The dentist was on it. One less fascist dentist, but yeah, sorry about the circumstances the cunt chose.

 

[tardigrade]

When she went in to get some of her stuff, at a time when it was arranged that he wouldn’t be there, she found that he’d hanged himself with the belt from her dressing gown, using her dressing table chair. It absolutely was an act of violence towards her as well as himself. She has never properly recovered from this.

He knew exactly what he was doing, and that she would be the one to find him. To to use her things for his act of revenge, just shows the sort of person he was. I hope one day she finds peace.

 

[story]

There is something desperately wrong with us - us, all of us, our society, our civilisation - if the only way some men feel heard is by these means.

 

[tardigrade]

The fact that they end their life in such a way that they know, their partner, ex etc. will find them is so fucked up. The very worst is when they take their children with them. That is the ultimate in getting revenge, and shows how much they cared about their kids in the first place.

 

[story]

Can we please not devolve into “aren’t men awful”.

That’s not useful either.

 

[story]

Men do feel desperate, and in many cases legitimately so. And they struggle alone with that.
At least women (on the whole) have some kind of sorority.


Please let’s try to push this discussion on to something useful.

I don’t know how, but let’s try not to get stuck.

 

[tardigrade]

My mum's friend who i mentioned earlier left her husband because he started to hit their kids. He'd been battering her for years. When she left with her kids, she took the first train leaving the station and ended up in a women's refuge. This is in the 70's. They were brilliant with her, eventually got her a house to live in. This kind of help is so important in cases like this.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

There is something desperately wrong with us - us, all of us, our society, our civilisation - if the only way some men feel heard is by these means.

Yes, I'm sure all these men, apart from being seething with rage and all sorts of toxic attitudes, are also desperately unhappy. They've killed themselves after all. That's not to make some sort of idiotic 'who's the real victim' point but it would be better for everyone if they weren't wouldn't it. Surely if you can get to why that is that has to be part of the solution.

 

[InArduisFouette]

There is something desperately wrong with us - us, all of us, our society, our civilisation - if the only way some men feel heard is by these means.

this is where some of the manosphere ' men are being ignored , men are being minoritised' schtick comes from and why it appeals so much to 'working class' men ( along with the incel stuff about being 'entitled' so re sexual relationship with a woman ) because so often these working class men , especially if they didn't get good grades at aschool see themselves without a future or a future that consists of minimum wage zero hours precarity, and then they see women and /or foreigners getting promoted ahaed of them in these roles ( warehouses, factory floor ) and this is fed on by the manosphere stuff.