Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency

[ElizabethofYork]

it's atroll account and he;s had his ego brusied by the fact that people with direct operational experience in the DV/ VAWG space , law enforcement / ememrgency services / healthcare are calling him out on his bullshido

I thought tardigrade was a woman.

 

[tardigrade]

It’s ok to discuss and it’s ok to come up with something that the majority think isn’t going to work. Doesn’t mean you have to leave the discussion. Especially as listening is part of discussing. I hope you stay.

Thank you for being reasonable and unoffensive. I expected some harsh remarks but being insulted and derided for having a different opinion, not so much. Think I'll stick around a bit longer now that I know not everyone is going to bite my head off.

 

[tardigrade]

I thought tardigrade was a woman.

I am a woman and I am not a troll. I'm staying because the kind of behaviour of some posters on this thread is at the core of this issue. Bullying and ridicule. I'm not going to be driven away.

 

[story]

I agree with ElizabethofYork that your view is valid. Things need to change and they won’t change quick or soon.

But introducing another layer of violence is not a solution.

Can we discuss what might help, rather than getting stuck in the yeah but yeah but yeah but curl-de-sac ?

 

[tardigrade]

How about the case where the abuser, who’d never raised his hand, provoked his victim to violence, then had her arrested. He played the victim so perfectly (learned from observing her under his cosh) that she was convicted.

I have no faith in the police, but they do need training, much more training to recognise the signs of bullying and coercive behaviour.

 

[Sue]

What sort of weapon should we carry around with us?

And if that weapon is then turned on us?

carrying anything intended for use as a weapon is an Offence you utter wetwipe

Yep, this is why loads of women (who'd never ever wear hairspray) used to carry some around to potentially use as a weapon. Because it's not intended for use as such and is something that'd plausibly just be in your bag.

 

[story]

A problem at this scale is not the result of the individual behaviour of bad actors. Responses like “I don't get how anyone can treat someone else like that” miss the point. I’m sure there are a minority of abusers that know they are abusers. However, the vast majority will just think they are behaving normally. They will have a common-sense understanding of how a ‘relationship’ works that includes certain patterns, which can include physical or symbolic violence as a matter of course. And this is excused because being ‘common sense’, the pattern is understood to be universal, understood by all, and so the effect of violence is understood to be simply the inevitable result of the cause of upstream behaviours, sure as night follows day. “It’s not my fault, she did this and so I did that, what else would anyone expect?”

And here’s the uncomfortable part: even if most of us never reach the level of violence being discussed here, almost all of us have taken part in relationship systems that reproduce the kind of low-level male-on-female coercion that underlies this common-sense understanding. It’s so strongly built into our cultural myths, our rituals, our practices, our language that it takes a lot of resistance to avoid. More resistance than is possible without deep self-reflection and conscious questioning of our intuitive responses. It manifests in myriad little ways that never build to actual violence as such, but nevertheless reproduce the idea that men are more important than women. And it’s that unspoken and unacknowledged underlying ideological building block that allows the violence to perpetuate.

What do we do about this? Sadly, nothing quickly. We’ve only even been considering it as a question for an eyeblink in sociogenetic terms. It’ll take a lot of generations to unwind all the little ways we reproduce it. It can only be done by us all reflecting on the assumptions we make everyday about our normal ways of living, and think about how they contribute to men are more important. And we can discuss that and amplify that discussion and encourage changes in accordance. Do that for enough generations and eventually we might get there.

In the meantime, though, women need protection via social processes and social policy. That’s not my area of expertise, so I’m going to read what others say about it and not write about it. But don’t take that as a sign that I don’t think there is also real need for here-and-now change too.

Can we talk about this too please.

 

[Callie]

Fuck off yourself. I don't see you offering any solutions.

Ok tell you what. You have proffered your suggestion. You were heard. Now listen to your others.
Try listening to the women posting about the issues that are impacting them on this thread that is about violence against women.

Thanks.

 

[InArduisFouette]

I am a woman and I am not a troll. I'm staying because the kind of behaviour of some posters on this thread is at the core of this issue. Bullying and ridicule. I'm not going to be driven away.

you are a troll ,

ridiculous ideas which are proven not work are open for ridicule.

 

[tardigrade]

Ok tell you what. You have proffered your suggestion. You were heard. Now listen to your others.
Try listening to the women posting about the issues that are impacting them on this thread that is about violence against women.

Thanks.

That's what I was trying to do before I was insulted and mocked by angry posters. Anyway, hopefully they'll realise their behaviour isn't acceptable, and this thread can get back on track.

 

[tardigrade]

you are a troll ,

ridiculous ideas which are proven not work are open for ridicule.

Give it a rest. Rather than attacking me for my opinion, how about contributing something meaningful?

 

[danny la rouge]

Ok tell you what. You have proffered your suggestion. You were heard. Now listen to your others.
Try listening to the women posting about the issues that are impacting them on this thread that is about violence against women.

Thanks.

As I understand it, tardigrade is a woman, and she does have direct experience of abuse. What she suggests isn’t that far from the Black Panther policy of “visible carrying”. It’s an understandable reaction, but one that predictably ended with a lot of Panthers dead. And yes that was part of the African American experience of policing anyway. But also it still is.

Self defence is not something to dismiss, but it’s also not going to help everyone in every situation. And it’s not going to change patriarchal norms. (In my opinion).

 

[story]

That's what I was trying to do before I was insulted and mocked by angry posters. Anyway, hopefully they'll realise their behaviour isn't acceptable, and this thread can get back on track.

You were also given more measured responses. Maybe engage with those and then perhaps we can move the discussion forward usefully.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Give it a rest. Rather than attacking me for my opinion, how about contributing something meaningful?

facts don't care about your feelings

pointing out your 'solutions' are dangerous, often illegal and proven not to work is meaningful ...

time and time again it's proven that complicated 'hands on techniques' and various chop socky really don't work unless like TSG / Tornado / Medium to High Secure psych settings staff you are doing it all day every day and are given time and resources to drill it

 

[tardigrade]

Don't go. Your view is as valid as anyone elses. And I totally agree with you that waiting for men to change their behaviour is a hopeless cause.

Thank you. I'm staying because it is such an important subject. From now on, I'll ignore the posters who have nothing worthwhile to say.

 

[A380]

…
Try listening to the women posting about the issues that are impacting them on this thread that is about violence against women…

No, no no, just sit down love and listen to what the men have to say. Perhaps there is a thread on cake baking or knitting you could look at while we men discuss this important topic…. but also

 

[tardigrade]

You were also given more measured responses. Maybe engage with those and then perhaps we can move the discussion forward usefully.

That's why I'm staying, because most of you are genuinely interested in reasoned debate.

 

[story]

As I understand it, tardigrade is a woman, and she does have direct experience of abuse. What she suggests isn’t that far from the Black Panther policy of “visible carrying”. It’s an understandable reaction, but one that predictably ended with a lot of Panthers dead. And yes that was part of the African American experience of policing anyway. But also it still is.

Self defence is not something to dismiss, but it’s also not going to help everyone in every situation. And it’s not going to change patriarchal norms. (In my opinion).

It was also a desperate effort to deal with a desperate situation. If you’re going to kill us anyway, let it happen while we face the aggressor standing upright, in the light, so that others may also see what is happening here.

It’s not that self defence or open carry or standing up for oneself is in itself wrong. The problem here, in my opinion, is that the discussion got stuck in yeah-but land.

 

[danny la rouge]

It was also a desperate effort to deal with a desperate situation. If you’re going to kill us anyway, let it happen while we face the aggressor standing upright, in the light, so that others may also see what is happening here.

It’s not that self defence or open carry or standing up for oneself is in itself wrong. The problem here, in my opinion, is that the discussion got stuck in yeah-but land.

Agree with all of that.

 

[Sue]

What she suggests isn’t that far from the Black Panther policy of “visible carrying”. It’s an understandable reaction, but one that predictably ended with a lot of Panthers dead. And yes that was part of the African American experience of policing anyway. But also it still is.

Although that was guns so obvs wouldn't work here and was more aimed at the police iirc.

 

[story]

Self defence may work when the aggressor is a stranger in the street.
But that is the smallest (albeit loudest) part of the problem. It’s the end point that’s supported and maintained by that enormous pyramid I mentioned earlier.

Aggressive self defence cannot push back on the pyramid, it will never knock it down.

 

[danny la rouge]

No, no no, just sit down love and listen to what the men have to say. Perhaps there is a thread on cake baking or knitting you could look at while we men discuss this important topic…. but also

I don’t want to be taking over the thread, but tardigrade says she is a woman with experience of a coercive relationship.

 

[danny la rouge]

Although that was guns so obvs wouldn't work here and was more aimed at the police iirc.

It was a slight analogy rather than an exact parallel. But yes, there are many differences too.

 

[InArduisFouette]

As I understand it, tardigrade is a woman, and she does have direct experience of abuse. What she suggests isn’t that far from the Black Panther policy of “visible carrying”. It’s an understandable reaction, but one that predictably ended with a lot of Panthers dead. And yes that was part of the African American experience of policing anyway. But also it still is.

Self defence is not something to dismiss, but it’s also not going to help everyone in every situation. And it’s not going to change patriarchal norms. (In my opinion).

exactly

it can also create a false sense of confidence

The key message fron all the various models of 'hands on' taught across Law Enforcement / Health / Social Care is that situational awareness and de-escalation are the key tactics, and that even well rehersed and drilled Hands on Interventions can be extremely high risk .

If you look at the use of force continuum in policing - the rise in Taser use is becasue from an Officer and Public ( i.e. bystander) safety point of view it's lower risk than baton strikes - never mind that mis aimed or strikes on a moving / wriggling / struggling subject can easily end ip as potentially ( or actually ) fatal red or black area strikes ...

If you carry a weapon - weapon retention and out gunning your opponent becomes your primary concern in EVERY interaction - which is why policing in the USA is in the shit state it is in

also if you carry a weapon you are going to have ben willing not only to retain it but to use it to such an extent that your assailant cannot take it off you once you have started using it , which if they don't run away immediately means you are looking at a GBH if not homicide arrest and investigation even if the PCs deciline to charge or you are found not guility at trial

 

[InArduisFouette]

No, no no, just sit down love and listen to what the men have to say. Perhaps there is a thread on cake baking or knitting you could look at while we men discuss this important topic…. but also

oh do take your own advice to sit down and be quiet

 

[Pickman's model]

exactly

it can also create a false sense of confidence

The key message fron all the various models of 'hands on' taught across Law Enforcement / Health / Social Care is that situational awareness and de-escalation are the key tactics, and that even well rehersed and drilled Hands on Interventions can be extremely high risk .

If you look at the use of force continuum in policing - the rise in Taser use is becasue from an Officer and Public ( i.e. bystander) safety point of view it's lower risk than baton strikes - never mind that mis aimed or strikes on a moving / wriggling / struggling subject can easily end ip as potentially ( or actually ) fatal red or black area strikes ...

If you carry a weapon - weapon retention and out gunning your opponent becomes your pirmary concern in EVERY interaction - which is why policing in the USA is in the shit state it is in

Tosh.

That's utter bilge. You're assuming eg misaiming whereas a lot of the time it will be actually aiming that causes problems. Not to mention that American policing is in such a state because it is racist, sexist and classist. George Floyd, for example, not shot to death. Nor was Rodney King to name but two instances

 

[story]

It was a slight analogy rather than an exact parallel. But yes, there are many differences too.

While I quite like the idea of women saying “Yeah? If it’s alright to behave that way for blokes, why not for us, especially in defence of our lives, see how much you like it!” it also reminds me of that awful Two Ronnies thing….

 

[InArduisFouette]

Self defence may work when the aggressor is a stranger in the street.
But that is the smallest (albeit loudest) part of the problem. It’s the end point that’s supported and maintained by that enormous pyramid I mentioned earlier.

Aggressive self defence cannot push back on the pyramid, it will never knock it down.

exactly

being 'loud' and 'large' works reasonably well at dealing with unwanted attention in a mixed and 'happy' public space but not in the home, not where despite it being the public realm there are unlikely to be others who will intervene to hand (e.g. walking in many residential settings after teatime and certainly after dark and not if cornered in a private or semi public space ( e.g. work, car-park , even the pub ... )

 

[tardigrade]

No, no no, just sit down love and listen to what the men have to say. Perhaps there is a thread on cake baking or knitting you could look at while we men discuss this important topic…. but also

This is another part of the problem. Making assumptions of somebodies gender, because of remarks they make. Why would you assume I was a man because of my comments?
The divide between what is expected of men and women is still mired in long held beliefs.

 

[A380]

This is another part of the problem. Making assumptions of somebodies gender, because of remarks they make. Why would you assume I was a man because of my comments?
The divide between what is expected of men and women is still mired in long held beliefs.

I’d assumed you were a woman.