Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency

[Smokeandsteam]

I also grew up in an area where violence was the norm. As I've already said, I don't think most martial arts are useful for self defense, apart from the ones that teach close contact fighting or weapons fighting. Yes, you'd have to spend some time learning the skills involved, but surely it's worth it to have more confidence in yourself.

I don't have an issue with anyone learning self defence if they choose to. It's good discipline, good fitness and it can certainly provide some confidence. I would encoruage everyone to learn if they want to. I am assuming that your advice is along the same lines.

But, speaking as a man - we are not talking here about being able to defend yourself/fight when it kicks off or when fronted up. As many of the posters here have already made clear the violence here is often more insidious, about power, increasingly carried out by groups and often more cowardly than much of the violence I and other men will have been involved in involving other men. If you are also a man, you should hopefully recognise the difference from your own experience. I am not saying that this is the case in every case, but generally speaking it is the case.

Ulitmately, even if every woman was fully trained in self defence it isn't really the point. The issue isn't 'what more should women do for when they are inevitably attacked' it's what can we/society do to tackle the social construction of masculinity that creates the issue on this scale in the first place. That's the debate I was hoping we would have on this thread because its the one that matters.

 

[tardigrade]

OK, it might mitigate the problem for a few people, in defined circumstances. But really it’s another “solution” that’s saying women have to change. It’s not that far off telling women to dress differently etc.

The problem is the structure of society, and that won’t be changed by tai kwan do.

I understand that, but how long do we wait until men change their behaviour? Next year, ten years, a hundred years from now? Also, self defense isn't just about martial arts.

 

[tardigrade]

purenarcotic is on the frontline of this issue, working to find and offer solutions IRL

They need not be so aggressive. I hope they can come up with something soon.

 

[existentialist]

If girls and women were trained in extreme martial arts or boxing, believe me they would know how to fight back instinctively. Self defense classes don't go far enough.
As far attackers coming from behind, always be aware of your surroundings, especially at night.
Obviously it wouldn't be a good idea to punch a cop who approached us! But if they're not in a police car (he wasn't), nor in uniform (he wasn't), be very suspicious and look for a way to escape.

As someone who's done a bit of martial arts, I'm not sure this is the answer to the problem. Plenty of people can become quite competent in a martial art, and there's no doubting that the training CAN help in terms of removing some of the panic and "freeze" stuff in extremis, but I really don't think that most people who train in a martial art are necessarily going to be ready and able to use it at a moment's notice. It takes a great deal of effort to maintain the level of situational awareness that is essential to practising a martial art, and it's far too much to be asking people (whether men or women) to be able to maintain that level of awareness all the time.

The bottom line is that none of us can really know, regardless of how much training we have had, how we will react in a situation where we need to use force. It also only addresses one facet of the violence against women problem - that of attack or assault by someone unknown. In reality, so much more of the problem revolves around psychological manipulation, creation of a climate of fear, etc., where there really isn't a clear cut point at which one can resort to physical violence in response.

The answer isn't looking at what can be done at the point of attack - it's doing everything we can, as a society, to ensure that those attacks just don't happen. We'll never eliminate sexual assault, but we just aren't doing enough to make it so that the idea of a woman having to learn a martial art in order to be able to safely go about her business is a ridiculous one.

 

[story]

They need not be so aggressive. I hope they can come up with something soon.

Mate, that wasn’t aggressive.

This place is sometimes said to be “robust”.

If people on the front line of a tricky issue can’t speak freely and from the heart here then I don’t know what we’re all doing.

 

[InArduisFouette]

I'm sorry this happened to your friend's daughter. IMO, karate isn't the best martial art for self protection.
One thing I was taught is to always be aware of your surroundings. I'm not saying this would prevent every attack, but it gives you a chance to get away from them.

if you look at what is taught within the open hand parts of 'officer safety' and what is taught in the 'disengage parts of the hands on techniques taught in healthcare settings it's all about situational awareness and very simple techniques rather than fancy -dan chop socky techniques

 

[InArduisFouette]

If girls and women were trained in extreme martial arts or boxing, believe me they would know how to fight back instinctively. Self defense classes don't go far enough.
As far attackers coming from behind, always be aware of your surroundings, especially at night.
Obviously it wouldn't be a good idea to punch a cop who approached us! But if they're not in a police car (he wasn't), nor in uniform (he wasn't), be very suspicious and look for a way to escape.

this is bullshit

 

[tardigrade]

As many of the posters here have already made clear the violence here is often more insidious, about power, increasingly carried out by groups and often more cowardly than much of the violence I and other men will have been involved in. if you are also a man you should also recognise the difference.

Ulitmately, however, even if every woman was fully trained in self defence it isn't really the point. The issue isn't 'what more should women do for when they are inevitably attacked' it's what can we/society do to tackle the social construction of masculinity that creates the issue on this scale in the first place. That's the debate I was hoping we would have on this thread because its the one that matters.

I replied to this thread because I couldn't see anything written here, that was going to change things any time soon. The only way to for things to change ultimately, is to change society completely. While I would love this to happen. I think it's unrealistic to expect this to happen.

 

[InArduisFouette]

You can train in the art of weapon fighting. There is a martial art called Escrima that teaches you to fight with a weapon small enough to carry in your hand. The skills you learn can be transferred to bigger weapons, if needed.

you really are talking some utter shite especially as carrying even a kubaton is grounds for arrest and prosecution

 

[existentialist]

I'm not derailing, I'm genuinely trying to offer a solution. It's not a popular solution and never has been. But i don't see any other solutions talked about here, that could make an immediate difference. Even if just for a few women.

It's not a popular solution, because it is fraught with risk. All kinds of risk. And, as several people (including me) have said, the use case for violent response is present in only a minority of cases. You can have all the martial arts skills in the world, but if you are living in the same house as someone you are terrified of, it's really not going to make a lot of difference.

 

[tardigrade]

this is bullshit

In what way?

 

[InArduisFouette]

So you think that getting arrested for carrying a weapon, is more important than defending yourself?
BTW, I didn't mention illegal weapons, you did.

carrying anything intended for use as a weapon is an Offence you utter wetwipe

 

[story]

I replied to this thread because I couldn't see anything written here, that was going to change things any time soon. The only way to for things to change ultimately, is to change society completely. While I would love this to happen. I think it's unrealistic to expect this to happen.

Yes we do need things to change completely, I think that’s what we are working for no?

Introducing yet more violence and aggression isn’t going to change anything.

 

[tardigrade]

you really are talking some utter shite especially as carrying even a kubaton is grounds for arrest and prosecution

There are other things you can use, similar to a kubaton, which are legal to carry.

 

[InArduisFouette]

In what way?

it;s clear you have no understanding of the law surrounding Offensive weapons or reasonable force , it's clear you have no understanding of the problems that women face with regard ot violence and their attackers, it;s clear you think that MMA / Krav Maga / Latest random Chop socky is a solution and despite people repeatedly telling you this you keep on coming back with escalataion and carrying offensive weapons as a solution.

 

[InArduisFouette]

There are other things you can use, similar to a kubaton, which are legal to carry.

abundantely clear you have no understanding on the law related to Offensive weapons

 

[tardigrade]

carrying anything intended for use as a weapon is an Offence you utter wetwipe

How would the police know that you intended to use something legal as a weapon! Oh, and wetwipe is such a pathetic insult

 

[danny la rouge]

I understand that, but how long do we wait until men change their behaviour? Next year, ten years, a hundred years from now? Also, self defense isn't just about martial arts.

Sure, and for those on the front line this is a problem here and now. And for women in general it’s a problem that looms large.

I don’t have the answer to dismantling patriarchal norms immediately, I’m afraid. And the causes are complex, and the norms exist in all of us to some extent.

And the contributing factors include things as subtle as pay differentials and attitudes towards women presenting football programmes in TV.

But one place to start, sadly not a short term silver bullet, is the social construction of masculinity and femininity. And the place to start it is with children. Now.

 

[existentialist]

carrying anything intended for use as a weapon is an Offence you utter wetwipe

For that matter, it doesn't even matter about the intention. If you're carrying something that counts as an offensive weapon (knives, baseball bat, etc), and you're stopped, you are going to need to provide a very specific justification for why you have it. In a fairly famous case, a chef was stopped and found to have a roll of knives in his boot. Even though he was a chef, and used those knives for work, he wasn't travelling to work at that particular time, and was deemed to have committed an offence as a result.

 

[story]

How about the case where the abuser, who’d never raised his hand, provoked his victim to violence, then had her arrested. He played the victim so perfectly (learned from observing her under his cosh) that she was convicted.

 

[tardigrade]

OK, I'm bowing out of this thread as my solution is obviously unpopular. I hope you can all put your heads together and work out how to make the necessary changes. Good luck and goodbye.

 

[InArduisFouette]

They need not be so aggressive. I hope they can come up with something soon.

you joined this site 6 hours ago according to your profile and you have posted almost entirely on this thread pushing some andrew tate-esque MMA is the saviour of everything bullshit ... i wonder how long it will be until editor has had enough of your frantic ejaculations

 

[story]

For that matter, it doesn't even matter about the intention. If you're carrying something that counts as an offensive weapon (knives, baseball bat, etc), and you're stopped, you are going to need to provide a very specific justification for why you have it. In a fairly famous case, a chef was stopped and found to have a roll of knives in his boot. Even though he was a chef, and used those knives for work, he wasn't travelling to work at that particular time, and was deemed to have committed an offence as a result.

I was once arrested for having a large bunch of keys.

 

[InArduisFouette]

How would the police know that you intended to use something legal as a weapon! Oh, and wetwipe is such a pathetic insult

thanks for confirming you have no clue on this topic and i called you a wetwipe becasue you are exactly that pathetic.

now do us all a favour and forget your login details and leave us in peace

 

[danny la rouge]

OK, I'm bowing out of this thread as my solution is obviously unpopular. I hope you can all put your heads together and work out how to make the necessary changes. Good luck and goodbye.

It’s ok to discuss and it’s ok to come up with something that the majority think isn’t going to work. Doesn’t mean you have to leave the discussion. Especially as listening is part of discussing. I hope you stay.

 

[Silas Loom]

I was once arrested for having a large bunch of keys.

Impersonating a prison officer?

 

[InArduisFouette]

For that matter, it doesn't even matter about the intention. If you're carrying something that counts as an offensive weapon (knives, baseball bat, etc), and you're stopped, you are going to need to provide a very specific justification for why you have it. In a fairly famous case, a chef was stopped and found to have a roll of knives in his boot. Even though he was a chef, and used those knives for work, he wasn't travelling to work at that particular time, and was deemed to have committed an offence as a result.

which is also way a lot of chefs carry their knife roll in a toolbox / peli with a keyed lock on it , meaning they have to undertake a number of deliberate actions to use the knives , much the same as Firearms legislation requires the firearm and the ammunition to be in seperate secure locations and in some cases it is suggested / required that the bolt or firing pin be removed froma weapon in storgage even if locked in a cabinet in a locked room /armskote

 

[ElizabethofYork]

OK, I'm bowing out of this thread as my solution is obviously unpopular. I hope you can all put your heads together and work out how to make the necessary changes. Good luck and goodbye.

Don't go. Your view is as valid as anyone elses. And I totally agree with you that waiting for men to change their behaviour is a hopeless cause.

 

[InArduisFouette]

It’s ok to discuss and it’s ok to come up with something that the majority think isn’t going to work. Doesn’t mean you have to leave the discussion. Especially as listening is part of discussing. I hope you stay.

it's atroll account and he;s had his ego brusied by the fact that people with direct operational experience in the DV/ VAWG space , law enforcement / ememrgency services / healthcare are calling him out on his bullshido

 

[story]

OK, I'm bowing out of this thread as my solution is obviously unpopular. I hope you can all put your heads together and work out how to make the necessary changes. Good luck and goodbye.

This kind of flounce adds to the problem. Digging into your own insistence, whatever the issue, maintains the status quo.