Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency

[purenarcotic]

This is really important and I think needs to be supported by wider systemic change. A benefits system whereby a lone parent (women in 90% of cases), or a disabled person, becomes immediately economically dependent on a partner should they move in together clearly creates potential for abuse - as does the insistence that only one person per household can be named on a benefit claim.

Refuge's, whilst vital, need to be supposted by better access to social housing and move on accommodation. It shouldn't be difficult for someone to leave a partner and secure new housing. It also needs to be easier to force a violent or abusive partner to leave. Housing scarcity and poverty should not mean someone ends up homeless if a relationship ends for any reason.

Benefits and/or wages need to provide a liveable secure income and not push people, often women, into precarious ways to try and make money, whether that's survival sex work or exploitative employment. That means no more benefit sanctions. Mental health services and substance misuse treatments should be easy to access on a walk in basis. Public spaces and transport should be invested in to both be and feel safe.

I don't think poverty is either to blame for, or an excuse for male violence - plenty of violent men are very privileged - there are much wider societal factors involved. But a social security and housing system which leaves so many of the poorest in a perpetual crisis and in which women and children are particularly vulnerable, is one in which violent and abusive men can go unchallenged and violent situations are difficult to escape from.

Absolutely. Changes to immigration needed too, to allow everyone recourse to public funds.

When I first started in DV, access to social housing was actually much better than what it is now (don’t get me wrong it was grossly imperfect but compared to now it was practically utopian). Unless you had a very large family or only wanted a very specific area, often you would get a property on your second or third bid. But what was different was less pressure on women to move on. Women could stay and move on when they were ready to. Some women would wait months before even applying for housing because they needed to stay and just be for a bit. Other women of course were keen to get out ASAP. But there was choice. We’ve now gone to the other extreme; an immediate pressure to apply for housing as soon as you arrive, with women either getting stuck and having to stay long after they are ready for a place of their own, or forced out into shitty TA for the endless wait for somewhere because that particular refuge sets a limit on staying time, either because of how they are funded or the service wants more women to be able to access the space. But refuge isn’t like any other accommodation. That’s why them being run by non specialist services is so wrong. Refuges are so, so, SO much more than simply a safe place to stay.

 

[Jammy smears]

All goes back to the "Lord of the Manor" valuing things more than people, when you could be hung for stealing. Sentencing has never kept pace with societal preferences.

Until sentencing properly reflects the severity of violence against women, nothing much will change. It's good that the police take it more seriously after years of sweeping violence against women under the carpet as 'just a domestic' but the courts and judicial system have a lot of catching up to do.

 

[nogojones]

the fact that the nospace format of referring to transgender women seems to have escaped you trans (a sa contraction of transgender or transsexual) is an Adjective it is NOT a prefix

does "asianwoman" make sense? "tallwoman" ? " blackwoman" ? " gayman" ? ( using man there in that last example as lesbian stands alone as a word replacing the adjective+ noun coupling)

trans woman - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

Shit. I failed my English 'O' level 8 times. Does that make me a transphobe now?

 

[Pickman's model]

Until sentencing properly reflects the severity of violence against women, nothing much will change. It's good that the police take it more seriously after years of sweeping violence against women under the carpet as 'just a domestic' but the courts and judicial system have a lot of catching up to do.

Let's get the bastards prosecuted first rather than having so many complaints fail to reach courts in the first place. Very easy to cry 'hang 'em high' if you've not plan to get them to the gallows.

 

[Cloo]

As I get older I've been reflecting on the many societal and cultural narratives around women that I grew up surrounded by. Things that you didn't really notice at the time, like that film trope where the lead lady hates the square-jawed hero, but guess what, he kisses her without her permission and she gives in because, hey, she fancied him all along! Doesn't seem like a big deal on its own, but it was such an all prevailing trope (which I am glad to note seems to have died a death now) and the message of 'Women don't know what they want', 'You know women better than they do', 'You have a sexual right to a woman you're attracted to', 'Just keep going until she gives in'. It's so shitty, and it gets ingrained.

As I said, these tropes are dying out but it feels like this, like Trumpism etc, is a dying flail of panic of people (OK, men largely) unable to accept that the order has changed.

Women have had literally millennia of being chattel - that takes a while for people to emerge from, both men and women. And the game has profoundly changed for so many reasons as we start to realise women aren't chattel, that our only value isn't in our looks, that we don't necessarily need 'man as provider'. That's scary for many men but it's absolutely no excuse for being an abusive shit. And it's not 'feminism's fault' that some men can't accept women being seen as just as human as men.

I feel on some level that we have still failed to root out this idea of 'the feminine' as weak and shameful compared to 'the masculine', and until we do it's going to be harder to eradicate VAWG.

Sorry that was a bit of a blurt of various feelings I have about society and women/femmes....

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

I suppose the first thing we can do is all agree on what exactly a woman is. Once we have done that, we can enforce women-only spaces where their pricey, dignity and safety can be guaranteed.

Bound to work - policing women everywhere - can't see how that's a problem.

And women living entirely separately from men - good plan.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

But violence against women goes back far beyond "gender critical" ideas. It's not a root cause.

its a root cause of why we're not making any progress any more.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Shit. I failed my English 'O' level 8 times. Does that make me a transphobe now?

oh do please fuck off with this bullshit.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Fuck off. Why should I have to go to 'women-only' spaces to be safe? I'm a full member of society.

And you'll have to have your genitals inspected for the privelege. Probably by a problematic man. It's the gender critical way.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

yes. utterly, depressingly predictable. Women's issues being belittled and stamped on.

Belittled by women who are transgender not wanting to be excluded i suppose.

 

[mojo pixy]

I feel on some level that we have still failed to root out this idea of 'the feminine' as weak and shameful compared to 'the masculine', and until we do it's going to be harder to eradicate VAWG.

Excuse me if this attracts vitriol (it might) but it seems to me that the fact we still class (male) violence against women and girls as different from and fundamentally worse than (male) violence against men and boys, shows that culturally we do still believe females are weak and defenceless against males, and women and girls deserve special protection that men and boys don't. Men and boys are essentially expected to just deal with it in a way we (rightly) do not expect women to. With regard to domestic violence or sexual violence it's not acceptable to victim blame, for example, whereas wrt male-on-male 'pub violence' or whatever, it seems to me it's still OK to say 'well he was asking for a slap'.

IMO, violence in general is reaching epidemic standards and it's horrible. I feel the short-term answer is teach girls how to fight back - since we can't seem to manage to teach boys not to be so violent - but if that's really where we are fuck this world.

I'm going to try and limit my posts on this thread to that one but if anyone wants to flame me, keep it short and I'll give it a like.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

No, the first thing we can do is not turn a thread on a vital topic into a bun fight about a different topic.

you don't think calling out distractions like attacks on trans women in the name of feminism are relevant to this thread? Really? I'd love to hear why a man thinks some women are wrong about this.

 

[danny la rouge]

you don't think calling out distractions like attacks on trans women in the name of feminism are relevant to this thread? Really? I'd love to hear why a man thinks some women are wrong about this.

I didn’t say that. You’re putting words in my mouth.

 

[two sheds]

yep look at the post by urbanspaceman that danny was replying to.

eta: it was this one

I suppose the first thing we can do is all agree on what exactly a woman is. Once we have done that, we can enforce women-only spaces where their pricey, dignity and safety can be guaranteed.

 

[Derek S-H]

Excuse me if this attracts vitriol (it might) but it seems to me that the fact we still class (male) violence against women and girls as different from and fundamentally worse than (male) violence against men and boys, shows that culturally we do still believe females are weak and defenceless against males, and women and girls deserve special protection that men and boys don't. Men and boys are essentially expected to just deal with it in a way we (rightly) do not expect women to. With regard to domestic violence or sexual violence it's not acceptable to victim blame, for example, whereas wrt male-on-male 'pub violence' or whatever, it seems to me it's still OK to say 'well he was asking for a slap'.

IMO, violence in general is reaching epidemic standards and it's horrible. I feel the short-term answer is teach girls how to fight back - since we can't seem to manage to teach boys not to be so violent - but if that's really where we are fuck this world.

I'm going to try and limit my posts on this thread to that one but if anyone wants to flame me, keep it short and I'll give it a like.

I think this is a topic that's all to easy to get theoretical and intellectual about behind the safety of our keyboards, whereas you don't have time for such niceties in the real world.

I think your point is sound for two reasons:

1. There's often an "understood" perception of how hormones affect a woman's thought processes and behaviour, but there's very little acknowlegement of the effect of testosterone on boys and young males.
I'm 60 and my body now responds very differently to being around females than it did when I was 20. Just so we're clear: I'm not saying that men can't control themselves, but I am saying it's a factor that doesn't seem to be acknowledged. What to do about this is another matter - education to boys about this?

2. I am really old, so I still remember when films were classified as X, AA, A and U. I am genuinely shocked at what constitutes a 15 rating - the level of violence is simply astonishing. And I guarantee that you can turn on your telly tomorrow and you'll see men punching, kicking, stabbing and shooting each other during daytime schedules. It's all just so normalised we barely notice anymore.

Male ownership and control of the public and private space is also a major issue (in my opinion) as they get to control the narrative of dominance. I also think many men lack emotional intelligence - they're too busy thinking "rationally" and too disconnected from their feelings. There's also far too much objectifying of women as being silent accessories to men. In my opinion, a lot of male violence comes from a place of fear and insecurity, as well as toxic role models.

It starts early and builds from there. I was raised in pretty much an all-female household and my sisters would laugh at me if I attempted to be too "masculine", so I just decided to be me, whoever that was, and forge my own path and identity. My dad was desperate for me to be a "man" but, interestingly, going to an all-boys' school completely killed off that idea in my mind as I was completely opposed to everything that went on around me.

There are plenty of societal building blocks in place that can form your "identity", but I think it's still possible to make your own choices if you have the education and awareness of what's going on around and inside you.

 

[mojo pixy]

I am genuinely shocked at what constitutes a 15 rating - the level of violence is simply astonishing. And I guarantee that you can turn on your telly tomorrow and you'll see men punching, kicking, stabbing and shooting each other during daytime schedules. It's all just so normalised we barely notice anymore.

I'm frankly horrified by the amount and length of violent scenes in TV and films (and games) aimed at young adults and teens tbh. I feel that decades of adults essentially laughing at killjoys and puritans who express concerns about on-screen violence of all kinds is now bearing really ugly fruit.

By myself I'm raising a boy who will soon be entering his teens, so despite not having a great deal to say (apart from sharing my own cognitive dissonance around what we teach boys or girls about how to deal with violence they encounter), this issue is very much a live one for me.

 

[tardigrade]

IMO, violence in general is reaching epidemic standards and it's horrible. I feel the short-term answer is teach girls how to fight back - since we can't seem to manage to teach boys not to be so violent - but if that's really where we are fuck this world.

This issue is so complex and deep-rooted, it's hard to come up with any viable solutions. I honestly don't think it's got worse, just reported more, and awareness has grown. Women have been subjected to male violence for millennia. Traditional values and ideologies perpetuate the idea that women are inferior. These days the media, advertising and social media, have a big part to play in this myth.
I think the only answer right now is for women defend themselves, by any means necessary. Yeh, I know they shouldn't have to, but if it makes them feel safer, why not? Always speak out if you are assaulted, don't keep quiet. Also, don't put any faith in the police as a lot of them are just as bad as the men that are reported for attacking women.

 

[purenarcotic]

I don’t understand this thing about women fighting back. We do? It’s not remotely uncommon. We are also told to go to self defence classes etc; following high profile cases you often see the news trot off to an all women self defence class. Why doesn’t it work and why isn’t it the simple solution?:

• physical abuse within relationships doesn’t take place in a vacuum, but in the wider context of coercive control. This provides more power to the abuser, allowing them to manipulate. This may make her too scared to fight back, or result in her being arrested and charged, or result in more significant violence from him in return
• women are not inherently unable to fight without being taught, but knowing how to do black belt karate doesn’t mean in a crisis we will use it (this applies to men too). In addition to the ‘fight’ response, we also have the ‘flight’, ‘freeze’, ‘flop’ and ‘friend’ response. We don’t consciously choose which approach to take, our brain decides to go with whatever one it thinks will keep us alive. So if you freeze, you might know all the tricks in the book, but it won’t make your legs any more capable of moving

Nicole Smallman and Biba Henry were stabbed from behind. How would you have liked them to fight back? By growing eyes in the backs of their heads? Should women automatically punch all male police officers who approach us late at night so we don’t end up like Sarah Everard? Be for real

 

[Poot]

I don’t understand this thing about women fighting back. We do? It’s not remotely uncommon. We are also told to go to self defence classes etc; following high profile cases you often see the news trot off to an all women self defence class. Why doesn’t it work and why isn’t it the simple solution?:

• physical abuse within relationships doesn’t take place in a vacuum, but in the wider context of coercive control. This provides more power to the abuser, allowing them to manipulate. This may make her too scared to fight back, or result in her being arrested and charged, or result in more significant violence from him in return
• women are not inherently unable to fight without being taught, but knowing how to do black belt karate doesn’t mean in a crisis we will use it (this applies to men too). In addition to the ‘fight’ response, we also have the ‘flight’, ‘freeze’, ‘flop’ and ‘friend’ response. We don’t consciously choose which approach to take, our brain decides to go with whatever one it thinks will keep us alive. So if you freeze, you might know all the tricks in the book, but it won’t make your legs any more capable of moving

Nicole Smallman and Biba Henry were stabbed from behind. How would you have liked them to fight back? By growing eyes in the backs of their heads? Should women automatically punch all male police officers who approach us late at night so we don’t end up like Sarah Everard? Be for real

Exactly. If a man suddenly decides to inflict violence on us, fighting back is not going to make much difference, especially those of us who are considerably smaller than most men. The size thing makes you feel quite vulnerable, especially as you get older. Besides, just no. We have the right to expect a life without violence in it. As a bare minimum.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

This issue is so complex and deep-rooted, it's hard to come up with any viable solutions. I honestly don't think it's got worse, just reported more, and awareness has grown. Women have been subjected to male violence for millennia. Traditional values and ideologies perpetuate the idea that women are inferior. These days the media, advertising and social media, have a big part to play in this myth.

I've definitely seen a huge increase on social media of women being insulted, slagged off, dismissed, etc on social media during any sort of discussion. Young men in particular call each other "simps" if they treat a girl or woman with a modicum of decency. They are expected to be nasty to girls. This is very prevalent on Facebook, X and Instagram.

 

[Callie]

Always speak out if you are assaulted, don't keep quiet. Also, don't put any faith in the police as a lot of them are just as bad as the men that are reported for attacking women.

Heh

Speak out. But have no faith that the institution there to protect you will. Maybe it's them attacking you but do be sure to speak out.

 

[tardigrade]

I don’t understand this thing about women fighting back. We do? It’s not remotely uncommon. We are also told to go to self defence classes etc; following high profile cases you often see the news trot off to an all women self defence class. Why doesn’t it work and why isn’t it the simple solution?:

• physical abuse within relationships doesn’t take place in a vacuum, but in the wider context of coercive control. This provides more power to the abuser, allowing them to manipulate. This may make her too scared to fight back, or result in her being arrested and charged, or result in more significant violence from him in return
• women are not inherently unable to fight without being taught, but knowing how to do black belt karate doesn’t mean in a crisis we will use it (this applies to men too). In addition to the ‘fight’ response, we also have the ‘flight’, ‘freeze’, ‘flop’ and ‘friend’ response. We don’t consciously choose which approach to take, our brain decides to go with whatever one it thinks will keep us alive. So if you freeze, you might know all the tricks in the book, but it won’t make your legs any more capable of moving

Nicole Smallman and Biba Henry were stabbed from behind. How would you have liked them to fight back? By growing eyes in the backs of their heads? Should women automatically punch all male police officers who approach us late at night so we don’t end up like Sarah Everard? Be for real

If girls and women were trained in extreme martial arts or boxing, believe me they would know how to fight back instinctively. Self defense classes don't go far enough.
As far attackers coming from behind, always be aware of your surroundings, especially at night.
Obviously it wouldn't be a good idea to punch a cop who approached us! But if they're not in a police car (he wasn't), nor in uniform (he wasn't), be very suspicious and look for a way to escape.

 

[tardigrade]

Speak out. But have no faith that the institution there to protect you will. Maybe it's them attacking you but do be sure to speak out.

Did I say speak out to the police? No. Speak out to other women, the press, post on social media. Let people know what happened and where.

 

[spring-peeper]

I don’t understand this thing about women fighting back. We do? It’s not remotely uncommon. We are also told to go to self defence classes etc; following high profile cases you often see the news trot off to an all women self defence class. Why doesn’t it work and why isn’t it the simple solution?:

...

Nicole Smallman and Biba Henry were stabbed from behind. How would you have liked them to fight back? By growing eyes in the backs of their heads? Should women automatically punch all male police officers who approach us late at night so we don’t end up like Sarah Everard? Be for real

A friend of mine insisted his daughters learned Karate because his niece was raped. Both girls (and the Dad) earned themselves black belts.

One of his daughters was knocked unconscious and robbed.

The attackers came up behind her and hit her with an iron rod.

 

[Callie]

If girls and women were trained in extreme martial arts or boxing, believe me they would know how to fight back instinctively. Self defense classes don't go far enough.
As far attackers coming from behind, always be aware of your surroundings, especially at night.
Obviously it wouldn't be a good idea to punch a cop who approached us! But if they're not in a police car (he wasn't), nor in uniform (he wasn't), be very suspicious and look for a way to escape.

No. Nonononono.

Don't attack me in the first place. Dint have a society where that is a thing that is so accepted that the answer is to put the onus on women to know how to correctly, effectively defend themselves from any attacker.

 

[QueenOfGoths]

If girls and women were trained in extreme martial arts or boxing, believe me they would know how to fight back instinctively. Self defense classes don't go far enough.
As far attackers coming from behind, always be aware of your surroundings, especially at night.
Obviously it wouldn't be a good idea to punch a cop who approached us! But if they're not in a police car (he wasn't), nor in uniform (he wasn't), be very suspicious and look for a way to escape.

Tbh, and I don't want to sound rude, but that's what women already do. That and more.

What we'd like is to be able to walk around without feeling suspicious, without holding our keys between our fingers, without holding a metal water bottle, without being afraid because it's the early morning or it's dark etc..etc...

 

[ElizabethofYork]

If girls and women were trained in extreme martial arts or boxing, believe me they would know how to fight back instinctively. Self defense classes don't go far enough.
As far attackers coming from behind, always be aware of your surroundings, especially at night.
Obviously it wouldn't be a good idea to punch a cop who approached us! But if they're not in a police car (he wasn't), nor in uniform (he wasn't), be very suspicious and look for a way to escape.

Leah Croucher was a black belt in a martial art. She was killed by a known sex offender.

MSN

 

[Poot]

If girls and women were trained in extreme martial arts or boxing, believe me they would know how to fight back instinctively. Self defense classes don't go far enough.
As far attackers coming from behind, always be aware of your surroundings, especially at night.
Obviously it wouldn't be a good idea to punch a cop who approached us! But if they're not in a police car (he wasn't), nor in uniform (he wasn't), be very suspicious and look for a way to escape.

So we have to make all these amendments to our usual behaviour because men? No.

 

[tardigrade]

A friend of mine insisted his daughters learned Karate because his niece was raped. Both girls (and the Dad) earned themselves black belts.

One of his daughters was knocked unconscious and robbed.

The attackers came up behind her and was hit with an iron rod.

I'm sorry this happened to your friend's daughter. IMO, karate isn't the best martial art for self protection.
One thing I was taught is to always be aware of your surroundings. I'm not saying this would prevent every attack, but it gives you a chance to get away from them.

 

[tardigrade]

If a man suddenly decides to inflict violence on us, fighting back is not going to make much difference, especially those of us who are considerably smaller than most men. The size thing makes you feel quite vulnerable, especially as you get older. Besides, just no. We have the right to expect a life without violence in it. As a bare minimum.

Size doesn't matter as much, if you have some kind of weapon to use against them.