Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency

[InArduisFouette]

Very interesting segment on Women’s Hour about this. Whilst not using the ‘not all men’ trope, pointing out that it is important for the majority of men who are aghast at VaW not to cede the public discourse to the (unfortunately) sizeable minority of men who seek to normalise it. Completely the responsibility of all men to do this .

( see also racism, homophobia etc etc etc etc…)

TERFs hour has a pecularily white, middle class, and none intersectional view of feminism which of course was actively encouraged by the Selfservative plants into BBC leadership over the past several parliamentary terms. It also playis int o the normalisation of Strong White Christian Conservative men 'protecting' the poor women folk ... ( while Crashing Grindr through massively increased traffic at Conference )

 

[Silas Loom]

Very interesting segment on Women’s Hour about this. Whilst not using the ‘not all men’ trope, pointing out that it is important for the majority of men who are aghast at VaW not to cede the public discourse to the (unfortunately) sizeable minority of men who seek to normalise it. Completely the responsibility of all men to do this .

( see also racism, homophobia etc etc etc etc…)

When you say “public discourse”, are you thinking of places like the manosphere? I think of VAWG-enabling sentiment of existing in quite niche pockets of social discourse rather than in legitimised public spaces, which is one of the reasons why it’s so tough to eradicate.

Not wishing to willy wave, just a clarification.

 

[kabbes]

A problem at this scale is not the result of the individual behaviour of bad actors. Responses like “I don't get how anyone can treat someone else like that” miss the point. I’m sure there are a minority of abusers that know they are abusers. However, the vast majority will just think they are behaving normally. They will have a common-sense understanding of how a ‘relationship’ works that includes certain patterns, which can include physical or symbolic violence as a matter of course. And this is excused because being ‘common sense’, the pattern is understood to be universal, understood by all, and so the effect of violence is understood to be simply the inevitable result of the cause of upstream behaviours, sure as night follows day. “It’s not my fault, she did this and so I did that, what else would anyone expect?”

And here’s the uncomfortable part: even if most of us never reach the level of violence being discussed here, almost all of us have taken part in relationship systems that reproduce the kind of low-level male-on-female coercion that underlies this common-sense understanding. It’s so strongly built into our cultural myths, our rituals, our practices, our language that it takes a lot of resistance to avoid. More resistance than is possible without deep self-reflection and conscious questioning of our intuitive responses. It manifests in myriad little ways that never build to actual violence as such, but nevertheless reproduce the idea that men are more important than women. And it’s that unspoken and unacknowledged underlying ideological building block that allows the violence to perpetuate.

What do we do about this? Sadly, nothing quickly. We’ve only even been considering it as a question for an eyeblink in sociogenetic terms. It’ll take a lot of generations to unwind all the little ways we reproduce it. It can only be done by us all reflecting on the assumptions we make everyday about our normal ways of living, and think about how they contribute to men are more important. And we can discuss that and amplify that discussion and encourage changes in accordance. Do that for enough generations and eventually we might get there.

In the meantime, though, women need protection via social processes and social policy. That’s not my area of expertise, so I’m going to read what others say about it and not write about it. But don’t take that as a sign that I don’t think there is also real need for here-and-now change too.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

When you say “public discourse”, are you thinking of places like the manosphere? I think of VAWG-enabling sentiment of existing in quite niche pockets of social discourse rather than in legitimised public spaces, which is one of the reasons why it’s so tough to eradicate.

Not wishing to willy wave, just a clarification.

I see a lot of hatred towards women who dare to post on any social media platform. There's always piles of misogynist comments (sometimes badly disguised as 'banter') when women try to join in discussions about politics, news, or anything else.

 

[equationgirl]

I just want to point out that recent article only refers to England and Wales, and doesn't include Scotland and Northern Ireland, where women face similar problems. It's a 'national emergency' for sure, but the figures quoted don't represent the whole picture.

 

[existentialist]

I suppose the first thing we can do is all agree on what exactly a woman is. Once we have done that, we can enforce women-only spaces where their pricey, dignity and safety can be guaranteed.

Really? Get to fuck. This isn't about treating women like special flowers that have to be protected at all times - it's about treating people with humanity, regardless of their gender. It just so happens that, historically (and currently), it has been acceptable to treat women badly, and we need to be making strenuous efforts to address that.

EVERYWHERE should be a "safe space", as it largely is for those of us who aren't women. And we need a system of justice that takes sexual violence, particularly against women (because it's so prevalent), seriously, and is prepared to take steps, from education to punishment, to discourage it from going on.

 

[Lotte]

And what part would men play in this? Really, I'm utterly fucking fed up of the onus being on women to manage this shit.

Me too. It always feels like it's on us to tell men to stop being violent towards us, and like the Joey Bartons and Andrew Tates of this world give a fuck what women think anyway, because they don't consider us to be human. To them, a woman telling them what to do is like being barked at by a dog.

 

[existentialist]

I’m imagining something more informal and more accessible than current schemes - anyway this is brainstorming rather than anything fully formed. The existing disclosure schemes don’t allow people to share suspicions or gossip.

Nor, in my view, should they. There is far too much scope for such a system to be misused. Surely the answer is to go to the root cause, and address behaviours, education, and social attitudes at source. All the time we're faffing around with registers, etc., we're tacitly acknowledging an unwillingness to get to the source of the problem.

 

[equationgirl]

A woman is not a 'what' either urbanspaceman we're people like men are people. Not objects, things or property.

 

[Lotte]

Accusations of DV are a tad more serious than fake amazon reviews. The consequence of one is you waste a tenner on a crappy iPhone charger, and the consequence of the other is an innocent person's life is ruined

And how many fake accusations of DV are there compared to real ones? When a woman is being abused and goes to the police and they don't believe her?

 

[existentialist]

Very interesting segment on Women’s Hour about this. Whilst not using the ‘not all men’ trope, pointing out that it is important for the majority of men who are aghast at VaW not to cede the public discourse to the (unfortunately) sizeable minority of men who seek to normalise it. Completely the responsibility of all men to do this .

( see also racism, homophobia etc etc etc etc…)

We (men) HAVE to call this out when we see it. But sometimes, we see it, and we feel intimidated enough by the individual to make us reluctant to confront it. Perhaps what we need to do then is to consider that if WE feel intimidated enough by them, how much worse must it be for the women their behaviours target?

 

[InArduisFouette]

A woman is not a 'what' either urbanspaceman we're people like men are people. Not objects, things or property.

'what is a woman ' is a misogynistic dogwhistle it's primarily centred in veiwing women by their reproductive capability

 

[burtabraham]

And how many fake accusations of DV are there compared to real ones? When a woman is being abused and goes to the police and they don't believe her?

Very few, no doubt. But I don't think the situation will be helped by creating an anonymous reporting system to "share suspicions or gossip". Such a system would increase the number of false accusations and discredit those who are genuine. It's a terrible idea.

And just so you know where I'm coming from, if I was in charge I'd massively increase the punishments for those convicted of domestic abuse.

 

[isvicthere?]

the fact that the nospace format of referring to transgender women seems to have escaped you trans (a sa contraction of transgender or transsexual) is an Adjective it is NOT a prefix

does "asianwoman" make sense? "tallwoman" ? " blackwoman" ? " gayman" ? ( using man there in that last example as lesbian stands alone as a word replacing the adjective+ noun coupling)

trans woman - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

The wiktionary definition you quote says "trans woman" and "transwoman" are often used interchangeably.

 

[kabbes]

Further to my earlier post, I don’t think that this problem is going to be solved by treating DV as the actions of the Other. Notions of registers and heightened sentencing are all based on the idea that “they” do things wrong, while “we” are innocent. It’s an unhelpful binary. Perpetrators of damaging violence need to be dealt with, of course, but don’t pretend that this will solve any problems. To do that, we need to problematise the situation in a way that includes things We also take for granted, not just Them.

 

[baldrick]

Very few, no doubt. But I don't think the situation will be helped by creating an anonymous reporting system to "share suspicions or gossip". Such a system would increase the number of false accusations and discredit those who are genuine. It's a terrible idea.

And just so you know where I'm coming from, if I was in charge I'd massively increase the punishments for those convicted of domestic abuse.

1. There's already informal local groups on social media for women to check out men they are dating. We don't need your approval to keep ourselves safe.

2. You know that means juries will be even less likely to convict? "He made a mistake, shouldn't have his life ruined" etc in the same way that driving offences had to be recategorised because people saw their own behaviour reflected in the dock.

 

[burtabraham]

1. There's already informal local groups on social media for women to check out men they are dating. We don't need your approval to keep ourselves safe.

I don't even know how to respond to this.

2. You know that means juries will be even less likely to convict? "He made a mistake, shouldn't have his life ruined" etc in the same way that driving offences had to be recategorised because people saw their own behaviour reflected in the dock.

Well then juries need to be held accountable somehow. Or make the juries all woman.

 

[InArduisFouette]

The wiktionary definition you quote says "trans woman" and "transwoman" are often used interchangeably.

in older US focused texts

it also says that the nospace format is not a favoured one

I notice you ignored the examplesof how the nospaceformat is clearly incorrect when applied to other adjective and noun pairs

 

[MrsArcanum]

A register of abusers has been touted before and few within the VAWG sector like it as a concept, primarily because of the way it will likely be used against victims. Ironically, women are blamed for going into refuge, they are blamed for calling the police… this happens more often than people realise.

What needs to be done is, like danny la rouge says, ultimately a structural change. This takes time, is complicated, requires people to feel safe enough to self reflect and not get drawn into entrenched positions where people just shout at each other without listening. The internet is very bad at creating that kind of environment, but it can be done more easily in person.

On an individual basis;

• believe her. Even if it’s your bestest mate in the world that she says has done something. Believe her.
• support your local DV services. I’ve said before on other threads, but refuge closure rates are happening at crazy rates despite rising reporting rates. There is nowhere for women to go. Understand that a refuge run by a generic housing association, or the dreaded ‘supported accommodation’ provider is simply not the same as a specialist women’s service. Fight for that specialist provision. It is necessary and it saves lives.
• take an active interest in what your local council is funding in terms of VAWG provision. There has been cutting by stealth through the funding of programmes for abusers whilst directly cutting victims services. This isn’t working and it shouldn’t be happening

I’m sure there’s more but I am so tired of this.

A register is only any use for those who have been discovered/outed. Given the numbers it would not even scratch the surface.

All of the above needs doing and: Teaching children that violence is wrong from an early age (whether that be as a perpetrator or the recipient) and instances should be outed and not hidden.

 

[burtabraham]

... we need to problematise the situation in a way that includes things We also take for granted, not just Them.

Could you give some examples?

 

[GarveyLives]

I suppose the first thing we can do is all agree on what exactly a woman is.

Greater Manchester Police do not appear to have any difficulties determining "what exactly a woman is.":

​

 

[LakieLady]

And just so you know where I'm coming from, if I was in charge I'd massively increase the punishments for those convicted of domestic abuse.

A woman I know was assaulted by her partner so badly that he fractured her skull. He got a 4-month prison sentence for that.

A few months after his release from prison, he was arrested for a burglary that involved the theft of £40k's worth of antique silver. The house was empty, and no-one was hurt.

For that, he got 8 years.

 

[SpookyFrank]

you seem to be forgetting that you have form and plenty of reciepts for supporting misogyny when you espouse yourt Gender Critical Talking points

There's a time and a place for discussing the links between ideological misogyny and gender criticism or whatever the PR-friendly iteration of transphobia is called this week, but this thread probably isn't it.

 

[belboid]

There's a bit too much focus on the individual in many of these posts, I fear. While it is clearly important that every instance of misogynist behaviour is challenged and that we teach our children well, without tackling the systemic nature of misogyny, the role of (particularly) raising the family, being a 'good' woman, of how misogynistic language is excused, how supposed improvements to the system simply impose unrealistic evidential burdens, hell, even a simple recognition that misogynistic behaviour doesn't necessarily equate to an active hatred of women. What seems trivial, a joke, is actually a bedrock of the bigger and more violent misogyny. All of which is supported and excused at the highest levels, from not even consulting with women, too denial of bodily autonomy, toschool syllabi, to control of tech companies, and entertainment companies and the rest of them.

Quite what this government really intends to do about all that I dont know. A little, but not a lot, I'd suspect.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I suppose the first thing we can do is all agree on what exactly a woman is. Once we have done that, we can enforce women-only spaces where their pricey, dignity and safety can be guaranteed.

There's a time and a place for this sort of thing and it's never and fuck off.

 

[kabbes]

Could you give some examples?

Look at pretty much anything any of us do and you’ll find examples. Because, as per my earlier post, one of the fundamental forms of social dominance is a hierarchy that places men above women, and our rituals, practices, stories and language reproduces that social dominance daily. Look at the Bandwidthz thread, for example — half the memes that get posted reproduce that underlying assumption. “She’s thinking ‘I bet he’s thinking of other women’, he’s thinking something abstract and interesting”. Or “he’s distracted by something new, she’s upset about it”. Whatever it might be — the fact that we find these things funny can’t be divorced from the fact that they say something about how we understand the male-female dynamic. And what they say is generally based on the idea that woman is a subordinate class. This cultural common sense isn’t distinct from the extreme expression of that dominance in its form as violence — it’s part of the underlying dynamic that ultimately enables it.

 

[purenarcotic]

'what is a woman ' is a misogynistic dogwhistle it's primarily centred in veiwing women by their reproductive capability

I understand your point but I do think as women it’s really important to think about this sort of question (equally ‘what is a man’). So much of our understanding of what men and women are, what behaviours are associated with that etc are as you say, rooted in misogyny etc. We need to name that and know that and think about that so we can make change. Otherwise we are just stuck in our boxes. Whilst it may be obvious to you or I, it isn’t for many, many women out there. It’s vital we grapple and pull that stuff apart.

 

[smokedout]

• support your local DV services. I’ve said before on other threads, but refuge closure rates are happening at crazy rates despite rising reporting rates. There is nowhere for women to go. Understand that a refuge run by a generic housing association, or the dreaded ‘supported accommodation’ provider is simply not the same as a specialist women’s service. Fight for that specialist provision. It is necessary and it saves lives.

This is really important and I think needs to be supported by wider systemic change. A benefits system whereby a lone parent (women in 90% of cases), or a disabled person, becomes immediately economically dependent on a partner should they move in together clearly creates potential for abuse - as does the insistence that only one person per household can be named on a benefit claim.

Refuge's, whilst vital, need to be supposted by better access to social housing and move on accommodation. It shouldn't be difficult for someone to leave a partner and secure new housing. It also needs to be easier to force a violent or abusive partner to leave. Housing scarcity and poverty should not mean someone ends up homeless if a relationship ends for any reason.

Benefits and/or wages need to provide a liveable secure income and not push people, often women, into precarious ways to try and make money, whether that's survival sex work or exploitative employment. That means no more benefit sanctions. Mental health services and substance misuse treatments should be easy to access on a walk in basis. Public spaces and transport should be invested in to both be and feel safe.

I don't think poverty is either to blame for, or an excuse for male violence - plenty of violent men are very privileged - there are much wider societal factors involved. But a social security and housing system which leaves so many of the poorest in a perpetual crisis and in which women and children are particularly vulnerable, is one in which violent and abusive men can go unchallenged and violent situations are difficult to escape from.

 

[Jammy smears]

A woman I know was assaulted by her partner so badly that he fractured her skull. He got a 4-month prison sentence for that.

A few months after his release from prison, he was arrested for a burglary that involved the theft of £40k's worth of antique silver. The house was empty, and no-one was hurt.

For that, he got 8 years.

I have a similar tale, my friend was beaten so badly with a broom handle that it snapped, all done in front of their six year old daughter. He got six weeks community service. My brother in desperation borrowed some money from his work without asking, though he did leave a note and he went to prison for six weeks.

Money and objects should not be worth more than a woman.

 

[MrsArcanum]

I have a similar tale, my friend was beaten so badly with a broom handle that it snapped, all done in front of their six year old daughter. He got six weeks community service. My brother in desperation borrowed some money from his work without asking, though he did leave a note and he went to prison for six weeks.

Money and objects should not be worth more than a woman.

All goes back to the "Lord of the Manor" valuing things more than people, when you could be hung for stealing. Sentencing has never kept pace with societal preferences.